RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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johnkw -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/10/2006 1:05:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: walterquez

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnkw

The Spirit doesn't work that way. When He comes in, by faith (alone--Thanks, Martin),
What happened to grace alone? (By the way, I thank God for our salvation[:D])

Me too, but I like to give credit where credit is due.
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He gives us new desires. Our work is to put our faith in Him. Jesus and John both say this (not to mention Paul). To claim His promises as we obey. A Spirit-filled person won't want to dissipate with Money, women, cars, money, houses, women, food, money, and they will care about the consequences suffered for such a dissipative life.
Can you show me in the scripture that God actually puts this desires in you, or that God changes your lifestyles? Especially when there are so many passages that tells us to change ourselves?

I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power (greek is 'dunamis') of God unto salvation [which isn't just rescuing from destruction, but is also the abundant life] (Rom. 1:16).
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: ... (Romans 3:21-22)
There are many others, but these should be enough.

God righteousifies us. This isn't just legal standing, it's Him making us more and more righteous. We don't have to try. The trigger for us, on our end, is faith, which is action, based on belief, supported by confidence that God will do what He said. I don't have to try to be more righteous, I just need to listen to the Spirit, obey, but obey with trust. Like Abraham did when he took Isaac up to the mountain. He did it with faith, because he said, "We will come back down." He fully expected God to make good on His word that Isaac was the son of promise, therefore Abe believed that after he sacrificed Isaac, God would raise him from the dead. That's faith. But this is another thread.

quote:

If God was going to change us, then there is no need to tell people to change.

Not necessarily so. Work out what God has worked in (Phil 2:12-13).



GraceBro -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/10/2006 1:18:01 PM)

"For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!" Romans 6:14-15

If I am promoting a lifestyle of sin by believing in eternal security, why hasn't a drop of liquor touched my lips or why haven't I engaged in fornication since 1999? Why is it that my brother calls me "Rev" because of the passion I have for the Lord? Why does my other brother thank me for helping him find the strength to leave a legalistic fellowship? Why do my homeboys jokingly say I am their "spiritual advisor" because I left the worldly lifestyle behind and promote the things of the Lord? Why does one of my best female friends and SIC call me a "warrior" for the Lord if I am promoting sin? How come coworkers hold their tongue or ask if I would be offended before they say something that might be offensive to me? Why do I belong to an online forum designed to talk about the grace of God? Why have numerous believers thanked me for encouraging them and suppporting them with a Godly love if I am promoting or engaging in sin?

These are just a few of the changes I've experienced in my life because of the guidance and teaching of the indwelling Holy Spirit in my life. It was not because of slavish devotion to legalistic rules and regulations that do little to stop fleshly indulguence. Scripture says that the "power of sin is in the law." Every change I have experienced is due to abiding in Christ. I see nowhere in scripture where the authors of the New Testament were "hoping" they'd done enough to attain salvation. Everything was a byproduct of the salvation they knew they already had. I trusted the Lord and He is conforming me on a daily basis to His image. It is not I, but Christ in me...

Anybody that says otherwise, IMO, doesn't know anything about the Gospel or the indwelling Holy Spirit... I know that I am saved eternally because of Christ's finished work. I know the only righteousness I have comes from Him. I know that any good work I produce is Him doing it through me. All I do is say thank you. I love Him because He first loved me and gave Himself for me in order that, raised from the dead, He could live His life through me... I am a slave to righteousness!

This is not up for debate with me so please don't bother trying to challenge me on it...

Grace and Peace



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/10/2006 8:44:49 PM)

Johnkw,

quote:

Walter's comment: If God was going to change us, then there is no need to tell people to change.
Your response:
Not necessarily so. Work out what God has worked in (Phil 2:12-13).
But the verse clearly is saying what Walter is alluding to. Man is the one charged with the responsibility. God works via the Holy Spirit to influence man to do His will. To do it for His good pleasure, for it is the reason we are created. It would be nonsensical to say that God works mans will to do His will. Why have man, why make man responsible if it is God forcing man to do the work. God may do it, but He does not do it without man's will and desire. He always permits man to determine his own will. If God did in fact do what you think He does, man would have no purpose. Man would be a tool, an object of manipulation. It cannot be any other way to percieve it.
It is always God working through the faith of man. Man is being held responsible for his faith, not God.

quote:

The trigger for us, on our end, is faith, which is action, based on belief, supported by confidence that God will do what He said. I don't have to try to be more righteous, I just need to listen to the Spirit, obey, but obey with trust.
I fully agree that faith is action. Without action it is dead and meaningless. You are also right that God will do what He says He will do, which includes that IF we deny Him, He will deny us.
Your statement of not having to be more righteous is contradicted by the description you give, that I just need to listen, to obey,. That is action on your part, works I might add. It is those works that vivify faith, that gives evidence of faith through which God works in and through you. If you do not have faith, or lose faith, God no longer will work through you.
And that is exactly what Abraham did. Faith wrought works. Faith must be active, or there is no faith. That is why Abraham is the father of faith.



hcspls -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 1:40:41 AM)

I have read all the posts on page one, all of you are trying to bring home your points of what Christ has done at the cross and discussing wether or not you can lose salvation once saved. Only each and every one of you can only answer that for yourself. For only the mans' spirit knows the things of that man, the same with the Holy Spirit is the one that knows the things of God, and that can only be revealed to your spirit by the Holy Spirit. So each one of you will either know you are or are not for your own spirit tells you.
Now those that are truly seeking the Lord shall find Him, Those that are wanting rightousness shall be filled. The gracers you are hearing speak up are ones that have tried to please God by what they were doing, trying their best not to sin, only finding themselves not measuring up to perfection, remembering Jesus saying, God only accepts perfectness. BE ye perfect as your heavenly Father in Heaven is. Well I tell you brethren, I got pretty tired of striving to be perfect, thought God was taking pepto bismal, or turning his back on me in a swivel chair. I gave up. That is when God said thank you, Now I god, can perform in you and through you. So now I am crucified never the less I live, for Christ lives for me, eats for me, died for me, now lives through me. Amen



rileykins -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 2:44:29 PM)

Hi hcspls

Amen! All I can add is this...

Salvation's works were performed exclusively by the Lord Jesus Christ: He did it all. There is nothing that we can add to make it more complete. It is a "GIFT of God, not of works." Have you ever given someone a gift, only to have them try to pay for it? It is embarrassing and often insulting: a gift cannot be paid for. What would God's attitude be then, when one tries to work for the gift that He is freely giving?

God doesn't sell us salvation on credit: it is a gift. It cannot be purchased, worked for or brought about by ceremonies. It is free Romans 5: 15-21

Salvation is a free gift: no strings attached. Once saved, we do not work to retain salvation, we work because of our gratitude to Him for the priceless gift of salvation.
We do not serve God to keep our salvation, but rather we serve Him because He saved us.

And as for losing our salvation, nonsense....

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Sealed by that holy Spirit of promise, until the redemption of the purchased possession....

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephs.4:30

Sealed unto the day of redemption. You know now that I think of it, I think that one of the ways believers grieve the Holy Spirit is by teaching that we can actually break this seal and lose our salvation!

rileykins



gracewalk -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 5:01:16 PM)

hcspls & rileykins..

Amen and Amen

We simply have to ask.. does the Lord grade on the curve.. is our salvation based on some measure of effort.. Those who think so have absolutely no measure by which anyone would know when they are righteous and when they are not.. Their only barometer is outward behavior. So they lecture others about being wrong but provide no measurable way to determine if one will "be saved" at death.. they can only hope their life of works, regardless of the motivation for them some how tips the scale.. where is the center point of acting righteous and acting unrighteous. The answer is we can't know.. we simply must do in order to be saved at some point.. Never mind Jesus telling us over and over again if we have received Him we have. don't get, eternal life..

How many sacriments do we have to invent in order to give the saints a feeling they are on track to be saved. Do these things, and you will be saved.. Are we really so nieve to think that if we make Easter and Christmas duty we have somehow please God and cleaned the slate for another year.

This is so far removed from faith.. I am still looking for the best works-score so we can establish the works bell curve and find out where each of us falls on it.. oh that's right.. the requirement is prefection..
There goes the curve..

Our righteousness will either be found in Christ, or us..

later



unworthyseraphim -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 6:10:30 PM)

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How many sacriments do we have to invent in order to give the saints a feeling they are on track to be saved. Do these things, and you will be saved.. Are we really so naive to think that if we make Easter and Christmas duty we have somehow please God and cleaned the slate for another year.


If this is what you think it is about and what is going on, you don't understand at all about us who do not share your OSAS sentiments. Not remotely. It has nothing to do with our feelings or earning. But it does have something to do with our duty, a concept long missing from too many theological toolboxes.



johnkw -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 6:25:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: walterquez

So what if you're not eternally saved? The scripture gives ample evidence such as "when I was hungry you did not feed me" examples, which is contrary to eternal security. Or Galatians when it talks about the fruit of the flesh and their consequences, again against eternal security.

Matt 25 doesn't go against eternal security. Feeding the hungry and visiting the sick are some of the works that God will do through you. It's a picture of the life that God will work into you. It's also an ingredient in how God will judge the non-Christians when He returns. Your task is to go from faith to faith (Romans 1:17), not from works to works. Regarding Galatians 5 and the bad fruit passage, don't forget verse 16: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." How do you walk in the Spirit? Not by not doing the works of the flesh. It's the other way around. How do you force a tree to bear good fruit? It's the life of faith-to-faith that causes a tree to bear good fruit.
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I believe that if you believe you're eternally secure, you're living a dangerous life. Basically, living a lie.

Feels dangerous, because what if God doesn't come through? What if I live this life of faith and nothing happens and I'm just the same nasty person I've always been? But the glorious truth for everyone who faithes (which, again, means trusting, confident, hanging of your body on what God says) is that God makes you more and more righteous. And the cornerstone righteousness (eternal life, which you can't lose) that He gives you is after that first act of faith in which you surrender your life to Him.

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Salvation according to scripture is not faith only, or grace only. That's not scriptural. Christ said to obey His commandments. If you don't, you will not be saved regardless of whether you have faith or not.

I guess Romans 4 is not scriptural, then. "2 For if Abraham were righteousified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham faithed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. "
Let's get it clear: initially faith is work, but a certain kind of work: leaning on a staff, or running to a shelter. But the faith that God is really looking for in us is the inner Amen that your heart says, and you'll know it if you have it. You have to wait for it.



johnkw -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 6:31:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cassian

Johnkw,

quote:

Walter's comment: If God was going to change us, then there is no need to tell people to change.
Your response:
Not necessarily so. Work out what God has worked in (Phil 2:12-13).
But the verse clearly is saying what Walter is alluding to. Man is the one charged with the responsibility. God works via the Holy Spirit to influence man to do His will. To do it for His good pleasure, for it is the reason we are created. It would be nonsensical to say that God works mans will to do His will. Why have man, why make man responsible if it is God forcing man to do the work. God may do it, but He does not do it without man's will and desire. He always permits man to determine his own will. If God did in fact do what you think He does, man would have no purpose. Man would be a tool, an object of manipulation. It cannot be any other way to percieve it.
It is always God working through the faith of man. Man is being held responsible for his faith, not God.

I do not deny the responsibility of man. Eternal security doesn't, either. If you don't work out what God works in, you'll miss out on a ton that God wants for your life, and you'll have no one to blame but yourself. But you'll still be saved, because one time you (notice I didn't say God through you) responded in faith to God's invitation into eternal life through Christ. That one's behind you.



walterquez -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 6:40:05 PM)

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ORIGINAL: johnkw
quote:

Salvation according to scripture is not faith only, or grace only. That's not scriptural. Christ said to obey His commandments. If you don't, you will not be saved regardless of whether you have faith or not.
I guess Romans 4 is not scriptural, then. "2 For if Abraham were righteousified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham faithed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. "
You need to show me where in that passage it says by faith ALONE. It doesn't.

By the way, I didn't know "righteousified" and "faithed" are words.



johnkw -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 7:12:18 PM)

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ORIGINAL: walterquez

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ORIGINAL: johnkw
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Salvation according to scripture is not faith only, or grace only. That's not scriptural. Christ said to obey His commandments. If you don't, you will not be saved regardless of whether you have faith or not.
I guess Romans 4 is not scriptural, then. "2 For if Abraham were righteousified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham faithed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. "
You need to show me where in that passage it says by faith ALONE. It doesn't.

By the way, I didn't know "righteousified" and "faithed" are words.


What else would you add to faith and be consistent with this passage? Not works.

It says ALONE just a few verses before, in Romans 3: "21 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed--attested by the Law and the Prophets 22 --that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe". The word translated "apart" means "chasms apart". As far away as you could get from law, any system of 'doing good', of which the Jewish Torah was the best model, when Paul wrote. God's righteousness (through faith in Jesus Christ) is apart from law or works.

I borrow the verbs "righteousify" and "faithe", from Dr. Gene Scott, who coined them out of exasperation at the anemic verbs "justify" and "believe."



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 7:50:18 PM)

johnkw,

quote:

I do not deny the responsibility of man. Eternal security doesn't, either.
You have not shown any evidence for either yourself or eternal security. All you have presented and the view if correctly understood by most evangelicials is that God is the active agent in the saving of one's soul. Man has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever. I will point this out latter in the last sentence of this paragraph.

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If you don't work out what God works in, you'll miss out on a ton that God wants for your life, and you'll have no one to blame but yourself.
That is the whole point. God does absolutely nothing without your faith, which is your will and desire. If you desire, then He will work in and through you, that is your faith. I Pet 1:5. It is faith, faith is the active agent in the union between God and man. If one does not have faith, one does not possess eternal life IN Christ.

quote:

But you'll still be saved,
that is where the massive contradiction occurs in the OSAS view. The Bible categorically states that one is not saved by unbelief, or by faithlessess. Yet all proponents of the view continually state this and the entire NT speaks so clearly the precise opposite.

quote:

because one time you (notice I didn't say God through you) responded in faith to God's invitation into eternal life through Christ. That one's behind you.
It is one-time IF one remains faithful. It is one-time IF one endures to the end. That may be the very story of many christians. BUT the Bible is clear that many do not remain, many do not endure. It gives several examples, all of which are ignored by proponents to OSAS.
Several posts back I asked anyone who supported OSAS to explain to what group were the texts referring that I had posted. They all refered to those that did not endure, did not run the course, did not remain faithful, they reverted back to the rule and life of the flesh. If these were not unbelievers, and could not possibly be (former) believers, just who are they?
In your theology what other group have you created that the Bible, as far as I know, never mentions. I know of only two groups. unbelievers/believers. In Christ/out of Christ. So, what group are they speaking about?

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Your task is to go from faith to faith (Romans 1:17), not from works to works.
the first part is exactly as scripture defines it. But that faith to faith, is not one-time, but continuous. It can be one-time and continuous, but not necessarily so, which is what the NT so clearly warns believers to be aware of. Thus God does work through faith, which is works. The works vivify faith. Without the works, you have no faith. The works are evidence of faith. Thus if no works, you have a dead faith. see James. It is the manual of christian living. Living in Christ. God does nothing unless you have faith. See again I Pet 2:5. You cannot give up faith, and still think you are saved or being saved. The Bible categorically states just the opposite as all of those texts clearly show.

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"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." How do you walk in the Spirit? Not by not doing the works of the flesh.
That is also correct. One cannot walk in two paths. It is either of the spirit or the flesh. But man is not bound by either. He is completely free to move from one to the other. Each agent, the Spirit to man's spirit, Satan to man's flesh, each ply the desire of man to do the will of each. That man then is the responsible agent, man is the one who chooses between the flesh and the spirit. To remain in the Spirit is the work of salvation. to sin less, to walk less in the flesh, to seek forgiveness when we have faltered, when we have slipped out of the spirit. Again, all those texts are describing this action and possibility of action on the part of man. It is the precise action for which we will give an accounting for, and will determine whether you inherit the promise given, IF you have remained faithful.
There is absolutely nothing of OSAS in scripture. It is antithetical to scripture.

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hanging of your body on what God says) is that God makes you more and more righteous.
Can't disagree with that statement. But the Bible also clearly states that God does not do this UNLESS we have faith. He does the work but does nothing without the will and desire of man. Man's desire and will is determined by his faith. God works through faith, not unbelief, or faithlessness.

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And the cornerstone righteousness (eternal life, which you can't lose) that He gives you is after that first act of faith in which you surrender your life to Him.
This is contrary to scripture. If you add, eternal life IN Christ or have the context say it then this would be a true statement. But as a stand-alone statment that is incorrect scripturally. Every single human being has acquired eternal life through Christ. And it is something one cannot lose. But that is dealing with the physical, not the spiritual. The spiritual LIFE IN CHRIST is an option, based on willingness and faith. If faith leaves the beleiver, he cannot be classified a believer any longer. He is assigned to the lot of the wicked, to condemnation. Unbelievers are condemned, not saved.

quote:

2 For if Abraham were righteousified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham faithed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. "
But this faith does not describe OSAS. but the faith of scripture. Abraham is the father of faith. What did he do? He beleived and then went up the mountain with Isaac to slay him, believing that God would still provide and keep His word and promise. He did not just sit there and say, OK, God do your thing. If he would have done this, he would have been the classicial example of a dead faith, unfaithfulness, being faithless. Faith is active, not passive.

I might add, that the text indicates a justification, not salvation either. Abraham was justified as we are by faith, but we are saved through faith. Through is by works.



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 8:01:43 PM)

Johnkw,

quote:

It says ALONE just a few verses before, in Romans 3: "21 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed--attested by the Law and the Prophets 22 --that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe".

Just noticed you posted while I was anwering your earlier post. I know that Walter can speak for himself, but this statement is the same concept but only stated differently than you and others have been posting all along.

Let me say this again, IT IS NOT EVEN ADDRESSING THE SUBJECT OF OSAS. It is referring to the righteousness of Christ bestowed upon mankind first, then that when a person beleives he acquires all of this work that Christ did for us on the Cross. We get it by faith. It is what justifies us through our faith in Christ. We DO NOT NEED TO SAVE OURSELVES FROM THE FALL. Christ did all of that work.

What we need to do is the work of Living IN Christ, now that He has overcome death in order that we might live and live more abundantly IN HIM. Most, if not all of you, constantly revert back to the work of doing the Gift. The Gift is done. Man had nothing to do with it, cannot change it, alter it, cannot lose it either.
BUT WHAT WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT is a person who becomes a beleiver, then must LIVE IN Christ. Living in Christ is the salvation of our souls. It is the whole reason why Christ needed to die and save mankind. So that man could do what he was created to do, be in union with God. To do this freely, without force or compulsion or locked into a position. It is man's created responsibility, it the the reason for our very existance. It is the very reason that Christ died for all human beings to save them from the curse of Adam.

They are neither the same thing, and OSAS does not address Christ's work, but man's response to that work. It is not the Gift, but the recieving of it.



johnkw -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 9:30:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cassian

johnkw,

quote:

But you'll still be saved,
that is where the massive contradiction occurs in the OSAS view. The Bible categorically states that one is not saved by unbelief, or by faithlessess. Yet all proponents of the view continually state this and the entire NT speaks so clearly the precise opposite.

You keep using this bizarre construct, painting OSAS people as putting forth something ridiculous, when it's not. It's just not what you believe.

The initial, and greatest, saving event is behind us, and we had a hand in it, to wit, our faith response. And God will never take it away.



walterquez -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 10:10:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnkw

It says ALONE just a few verses before, in Romans 3: "21 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed--attested by the Law and the Prophets 22 --that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe".
No it does not.



walterquez -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 10:26:08 PM)

Dear johnkw, I don't think you understand what the early Church understood from the Gospels. They are Greeks, so I think they would better understand the Greek NT than those who are not Greeks.
  1. They believed we were saved. Done deal. Man had nothing to do with it. No one or nothing can take it away.
    But this salvation has nothing to do with us going to heaven, but to give us an opportunity for the next two.
  2. We are being saved which is the present. This salvation has to do with us conforming to His image. It is what Peter told the crowd, to repent and be baptized, meaning to change from a lifestyle of sin to one that conforms to Christ.
  3. And that we will be saved IF we persevere to the end.
Now if OSAS meant only the 1st one then I agree, but that is not the case. OSAS and Arminians treats the whole salvation as one event when in reality they are not.



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/14/2006 10:40:53 PM)

johnkw,

quote:

You keep using this bizarre construct, painting OSAS people as putting forth something ridiculous, when it's not. It's just not what you believe.

The initial, and greatest, saving event is behind us, and we had a hand in it, to wit, our faith response. And God will never take it away.

Not something rediculous, but something that you believe that is not answerable from scripture. As yet, you have not shown theologically, other than your opinion and the reciting of texts that from the view of scripture does not support OSAS.
You are also right, it is not something I believe.
As I stated earlier, it is not what I believe or even you believe. None of you have even grasped the concept, you do not even understand the position.
I didn't believe in communism either. But I understood it, I could explain the principles. Knowing and understanding does not compel one to believe it.

God does not have anything to do with your faith, relative to either accepting it or taking it. You accept it as a gift, you can throw it away outright. You can accept it for a time and then throw it back. You can, on the other hand, seek to hold it for eternity. But it is only you that controls whether you believe or not. It is only you that determines whether you will succumb to the wiles of the devil or yeild completely to Christ. If you submit yourself wholly to Christ, then God will work with you to accomplish the work for which we were created in this created universe. However, we can as well, terminate our relationship. God is not the one to worry about. His promises and work is secure. But is your will and desire sure. Will it stand the test of time, trials, temptations? Will it stand the onslought of the devil. The closer one is to Christ, the harder the devil works to break that bond. The further one is from Christ, the less the devil works on your will.

Christ's Gift was for all of mankind. He offers it to all mankind. It cannot be changed, overruled or taken back. The Gift cannot be lost. But then we are not speaking of the Gift, but man's response which is one of faith. A living, active, ongoing faith. Of becoming like Christ. That does not happen on a one-time assertion. It is a mere beginning. A beginning and journey that depends wholly on man's will and desire to work with God.

Let's just take two texts: Both are finite promises of God. Promises of God to man. Both are true and unalterable. Both are scriptural and both are Truth. They both stand. They are not opposing each other.
". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5"

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13"

These are promises of God to man. They are irrevocable. But the context in which they are given and the context of the entire NT and the relationship man, as a believer, has with Christ depends on one thing, and one thing only. Faith. The fact that God is constant, but man is not. Man is fickle when it comes to his relationship with Christ. God works through the condition of faith. I Pet 1:5 and many others like it. If we do not have faith, it is not God's fault that we don't, it is not God's responsibility that we keep it. He created us and saved us so that we could be as we were created to be, free and accountable for our actions, faith. A living faith, not a static or stagnant faith.

If the condition of faith is not met then this is the result.

Hebrews 3:12,13" Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

It clearly states that a believer is the one who is departing. An unbeliever cannot ever be in God and thereby departing. Since there are only two groups, unbelievers or believers, one is in either camp, it must be believers departing from the Living God. One cannot be saved with unbelief, even if you at one time believed. It means nothing if you do not remain.

quote:

James 1:14,15 - But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
this cannot be speaking of unbelievers, right. Then it must be believers. And notice that is says death. This is spiritual death, which is separation from God. Can one be saved separated from God? If this death remains unrepentant in this life, it becomes terminal in eternity. I don't see any salvation here at all. Death and salvation are not equal.

Believers, clearly, do not remain believers in every single instance. The fact of the matter, based on the constant, profuse warnings, that Christ clearly understood the temptations that will entice man away from God.

Since you believe that once a beliver is always a believer, thus saved, just how do you reconcile these verses? Explain to me, which no one as yet has, just how an unbeliever can be saved, someone without faith, even though they may have believed at some time in the past?



johnkw -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/15/2006 1:39:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: walterquez

Dear johnkw, I don't think you understand what the early Church understood from the Gospels. They are Greeks, so I think they would better understand the Greek NT than those who are not Greeks.
  1. They believed we were saved. Done deal. Man had nothing to do with it. No one or nothing can take it away.
    But this salvation has nothing to do with us going to heaven, but to give us an opportunity for the next two.
  2. We are being saved which is the present. This salvation has to do with us conforming to His image. It is what Peter told the crowd, to repent and be baptized, meaning to change from a lifestyle of sin to one that conforms to Christ.
  3. And that we will be saved IF we persevere to the end.
Now if OSAS meant only the 1st one then I agree, but that is not the case. OSAS and Arminians treats the whole salvation as one event when in reality they are not.

Not good enough. This sort of argument doesn't intimidate me. I don't care what they thought if it goes against Scripture. That being said, you might be the one misinterpreting them.

You said, "No it does not." How not? There are only 2 theoretical ways to be righteous. Either obey the whole law perfectly (which Christ and no one else did), or become righteous by faith. v. 21: "a righteousness from God Apart from the law" + v 22: "the righteousness of God by faith" = faith alone. How could it be anything else? There are no other alternatives. The word 'monon' doesn't have to be in there.

But I guess this is another thread.



rileykins -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/15/2006 9:30:06 AM)

Hi gracewalk & hcspsl

Well, that's the thing isn't it? If you never have any assurance of your salvation then you have to keep inventing things to do to make you feel better about your insecurity!

Of course Romans chapter 4 tells us different. If salvation is by works then it's no longer of faith. If it's by works, it's no longer grace. If it's of works it's not a gift and we owe a debt. A debt that we can never pay. But thank God that debt was paid for us, and paid in full, by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. That's why they call Him, Savior!

I owed a debt I could not pay,
He paid a debt He did not owe.

When we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungoldy.

Aren't you glad that you are in the One who met the mark, in the One who lived the perfect life that only He could and that's it's by His perfect obedience the we are made righteous. Aren't you glad that in Him you are complete, that you have as a present posession peace with God, redemption, the forgiveness of sins, that God the Spirit sealed you in Christ for all of eternity the very moment you believed on the Lord for eternal life. Aren't you glad that you have the absolute assurance of knowing that if you were to die today you would immediately be in His presense, at home forever and ever with the One who loved you and gave Himself for you?

Like my pastor is fond of saying..."if your religion can't tell you where you are going when you die, then your religion ain't worth a dead horese!"

rileykins

quote:

ORIGINAL: gracewalk

hcspls & rileykins..

Amen and Amen

We simply have to ask.. does the Lord grade on the curve.. is our salvation based on some measure of effort.. Those who think so have absolutely no measure by which anyone would know when they are righteous and when they are not.. Their only barometer is outward behavior. So they lecture others about being wrong but provide no measurable way to determine if one will "be saved" at death.. they can only hope their life of works, regardless of the motivation for them some how tips the scale.. where is the center point of acting righteous and acting unrighteous. The answer is we can't know.. we simply must do in order to be saved at some point.. Never mind Jesus telling us over and over again if we have received Him we have. don't get, eternal life..

How many sacriments do we have to invent in order to give the saints a feeling they are on track to be saved. Do these things, and you will be saved.. Are we really so nieve to think that if we make Easter and Christmas duty we have somehow please God and cleaned the slate for another year.

This is so far removed from faith.. I am still looking for the best works-score so we can establish the works bell curve and find out where each of us falls on it.. oh that's right.. the requirement is prefection..
There goes the curve..

Our righteousness will either be found in Christ, or us..

later



1lightseeker -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/15/2006 9:58:08 AM)

quote:

Like my pastor is fond of saying..."if your religion can't tell you where you are going when you die, then your religion ain't worth a dead horese!"


Rileykins,

Does he know what happened to the horse after he died? Much less if that horse was worthless or not. Is he the judge of whether people who think differently than him have a worthless religion? Is he personally able to judge if others are "saved" or not? This is the kind of presumptuous confidence that OSAS provides. I don't need it, I'll let God be the judge.



walterquez -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/15/2006 9:59:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnkw

Not good enough.
What I said is how the early Church understood it. If it was good enough for them, it is good enough for me. I am not going to add more to what God told them.

quote:

This sort of argument doesn't intimidate me.
Who's trying to intimidate you?

quote:

I don't care what they thought if it goes against Scripture. That being said, you might be the one misinterpreting them.
How do you know your interpretation is right and they are wrong? They spoke Greek, so I assume they understand the Greek NT better than us. It is their language. I think I will stick with someone who more importantly the Gospel was passed on to them by the Apostles, and 2nd they spoke Greek.

quote:

You said, "No it does not." How not?
I have read every single passage you listed, and nowhere does it say "by faith ALONE". You're making stuff up. You're adding to the word of God written in the Holy Scripture.



walterquez -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/15/2006 10:00:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker

Does he know what happened to the horse after he died?
Wow, this is good.[:D]



rileykins -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/15/2006 11:07:30 AM)

It's not what my pastor thinks or what anyone else thinks, it's what does the Bible say. The Bible tells us that we can know for sure where we are going when we die. We can know for sure whether we have as a present posession, eternal life or not. We can know for sure that all of our sins are forgiven once and for all.

Fortunately I am blessed with a pastor who makes the Bible his final authority on these issues, and not what mere mortal, fallable men have had to say.

No one, and I mean NO ONE is capable of knowing what is really in the heart of another. The Lord knows who belongs to Him and who doesn't.

Do you know where you will spend eternity when you die 1lightseeker?

You bet your boots I have confidence in where I'll be spending eternity, because my confidence is based in what God in Christ did for me on Calvary and not in some assinine religious performance based in faulty human wisdom designed to cater to the flesh and religious pride!

Absent from the body...present with the Lord!!

rileykins


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker

quote:

Like my pastor is fond of saying..."if your religion can't tell you where you are going when you die, then your religion ain't worth a dead horese!"


Rileykins,

Does he know what happened to the horse after he died? Much less if that horse was worthless or not. Is he the judge of whether people who think differently than him have a worthless religion? Is he personally able to judge if others are "saved" or not? This is the kind of presumptuous confidence that OSAS provides. I don't need it, I'll let God be the judge.



1lightseeker -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/15/2006 11:18:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rileykins

It's not what my pastor thinks or what anyone else thinks, it's what does the Bible say. The Bible tells us that we can know for sure where we are going when we die. We can know for sure whether we have as a present posession, eternal life or not. We can know for sure that all of our sins are forgiven once and for all.


I am just not sure that all those who are sure they are going to heaven really are, just because they are sure they are.

quote:

Fortunately I am blessed with a pastor who makes the Bible his final authority on these issues, and not what mere mortal, fallable men have had to say.


The parts he likes, anyway.

quote:

No one, and I mean NO ONE is capable of knowing what is really in the heart of another. The Lord knows who belongs to Him and who doesn't.

Do you know where you will spend eternity when you die 1lightseeker?


Where-ever the Lord places me.

quote:

You bet your boots I have confidence in where I'll be spending eternity, because my confidence is based in what God in Christ did for me on Calvary and not in some assinine religious performance based in faulty human wisdom designed to cater to the flesh and religious pride!


This right after you said that NO ONE can judge the heart of another. Perhaps some people's wisdom is worth listening to, and perhaps some faith-based performances are beneficial and you just don't realize it yet.



rileykins -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/15/2006 11:45:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker

quote:

ORIGINAL: rileykins

It's not what my pastor thinks or what anyone else thinks, it's what does the Bible say. The Bible tells us that we can know for sure where we are going when we die. We can know for sure whether we have as a present posession, eternal life or not. We can know for sure that all of our sins are forgiven once and for all.


I am just not sure that all those who are sure they are going to heaven really are, just because they are sure they are.

Now who is doing the judging?

quote:

Fortunately I am blessed with a pastor who makes the Bible his final authority on these issues, and not what mere mortal, fallable men have had to say.


The parts he likes, anyway.

You know my pastor?

quote:

No one, and I mean NO ONE is capable of knowing what is really in the heart of another. The Lord knows who belongs to Him and who doesn't.

Do you know where you will spend eternity when you die 1lightseeker?


Where-ever the Lord places me.

I take that as a no. That's too bad you don't have the assurance of eternal life that the Lord wants you to have. You can have that assurance you know.

quote:

You bet your boots I have confidence in where I'll be spending eternity, because my confidence is based in what God in Christ did for me on Calvary and not in some assinine religious performance based in faulty human wisdom designed to cater to the flesh and religious pride!


This right after you said that NO ONE can judge the heart of another. Perhaps some people's wisdom is worth listening to, and perhaps some faith-based performances are beneficial and you just don't realize it yet.


OF ANOTHER.

Faith based performance....depends on what you are putting your faith in!! The only performance I put my faith in is that ONE performance on Calvary!! That's the only performance that counts!

rileykins



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