RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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disciplelife -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/11/2008 1:46:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156

quote:

ORIGINAL: disciplelife
It is my opinion that someone who believes themselves to be an heir of God's Kingdom, and as such, believe themselves to be a true and loyal follower of Jesus Christ, while living a life of depravity and continued sin thinking they are forever covered in Christ's blood are sadly mistaken about the falsehood of an "eternal security"

I agree to this extent: If one "believes", how do they know they have "believed"?


This is not a reference to a true believer, I am taking about someone who claims to be a believer, and yet, lives a life of sin and depravity, hiding behind the Cross, thinking that they are covered because of some ill-taught or self-conceived notion that "once saved, always saved".

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If one makes a concerted effort, day-in and day-out to follow the path of righteousness laid before us, then an eternity in heaven is almost guaranteed.
This is an erroneous and unbalanced view of "work out your salvation".


To what extent would you consider living your daily life to please God "erroneous and unbalanced"? There was no mention of "salvation by works". Salvation is salvation, works are works... never the twain shall meet. We are, however, commanded to live according to God's laws and follow the path laid out before us, by Him, in obedience to Him... all day, every day! This has nothing to do with salvation by works, this has everything to with faith.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?(Romans 6:16)

We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5)

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"Almost guaranteed"???


Poor choice of words, granted, but the point still remains. In fact, if a man says that he is a believer and yet lives a wicked life of continual sin and debauchery, he shows us that he is not the object of God's grace. The faith which is given by the grace of God is a faith that seeks God and the righteousness of the Kingdom of God. James teaches us that when he says, "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:14,17). True faith always manifests itself in good works. This does not elude to a works-based salvation, this means that after a deep and meaningful regeneration of the heart and soul, at the foot of the Cross, a true and faithful believer is joyful in his faith. Indeed, the believer is far from perfect. Nevertheless, his sanctification implies that he does seek to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God.



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/12/2008 3:34:49 AM)

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ORIGINAL: disciplelife

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

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ORIGINAL: disciplelife

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And when they discover that it was not God's will, nor his good pleasure, for them to live a life of continued sin after claiming themselves as heirs in his Kingdom... I'm thinking eternal damnation is what they will inherit.

What are you saying?....those in whom God works to will and do of His good pleasure will live a life of continued sin?
I believe it's clear.
Actually, it wasn't very clear at all. The above (bolded)statement was your response to me when I wrote the following about Christians who believe in their eternal security in Christ:

"And then, there are others who believe God when He tells us we can never lose our salvation because the Lord Jesus Christ is the "author and finisher" of our faith. And we believe God when He tells us "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

So, indeed your response to my statement was very confusing. You said of these Christians:

"I'm thinking eternal damnation is what they will inherit."

So, is this actually your opinion of the Christians I mentioned?


It is my opinion that someone who believes themselves to be an heir of God's Kingdom, and as such, believe themselves to be a true and loyal follower of Jesus Christ, while living a life of depravity and continued sin thinking they are forever covered in Christ's blood are sadly mistaken about the falsehood of an "eternal security".
I don't disagree with you. Still, even though I included the fact that God works in believers, who profess eternal security, to do His will, you said of these: "I'm thinking eternal damnation is what they will inherit." Just wondered why you'd say such a thing. Frankly, it seemed to me your "eternal damnation" remark was somehow reserved for adherents of "eternal security".

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If one makes a concerted effort, day-in and day-out to follow the path of righteousness laid before us, then an eternity in heaven is almost guaranteed.
Then again, there are many who work feverishly and God says of some of them "I never knew you".



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/12/2008 3:45:54 AM)

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ORIGINAL: disciplelifeYou can disagree all you like, but I sensed a "tone" of condescension in your reply.
Perhaps your "senses" are too sensitive?

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Disagreement is one thing, but I will not sit on my hands while someone says I am "incorrect", unless there is evidence to the contrary.
Not sitting on your hands requires snarkiness? Rather, I would see the better option would be to prove me wrong.

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I find it very disparaging that you would disagree, seeing as how several of your posts have led me to believe you and I might be on the same page on some of these issues.
We are on the same page on a number of issues. Obviously, though, this doesn't include eternal security and faith. It's not "disparaging" to say that you are incorrect on your concept of faith. You believe me to be wrong on some issues also and I don't mind you saying so. If we all agreed, there'd be no reason for this thread.

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Continued, willful, and flagrant disobedience flies in the face of everything Christ died for. A true heir would never do anything to jeopardize their inheritance. The Bible is clear about eternal inheritance... NOT eternal "security".
Your first sentence is correct; but, not your second and third. There is no sin a believer can commit which would result in the loss of his salvation. Why?....because man is not responsible for his salvation - God is. It is a free gift resulting solely from God's grace.

The doctrine of eternal security doesn't hang alone. Our eternal life with God is the culmination of all the doctrines of salvation. The whole purpose of God decreeing His plan of salvation, electing a people to be called by His name, sending His Son to redeem those people, and then sending forth His Holy Spirit to empower those people to live righteously, is to securely bring those people into eternal life.

To suggest a Christian can lose his salvation undoes the divine work leading up to eternal life. Eternal security is inherent in the very nature of salvation.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/12/2008 8:15:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

There is no sin a believer can commit which would result in the loss of his salvation. Why?....because man is not responsible for his salvation - God is. It is a free gift resulting solely from God's grace.
If God is totally, solely responsible for man's salvation then how does man obtain it? Does a person just wake up one day and realize that during the night God had saved them without their knowledge?

I know I'm looking at salvation in human terms but it seems to me that even a free gift would have certain conditions that need to be met before it's actually received by a person. I mean a free gift can be offered and refused, as well as offered and accepted.



rwe2156 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/12/2008 4:51:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: disciplelife
This is not a reference to a true believer, I am taking about someone who
claims to be a believer, and yet, lives a life of sin and depravity,
hiding behind the Cross, thinking that they are covered because of some
ill-taught or self-conceived notion that "once saved, always saved".

I understand your point, but do you realize you have no authority to make this statement?

The only person's faith you can be responsible for is your own.

Fruit can be absent, albeit not forever, in a true believer's life.

Fruit can be present (fake) in a true unbeliever, too.

Wheat and tares are present in the church. It is God's business to sort them out.

Don't you worry - the true will find them out and their hypocrisy will be revealed
for all to see.

As for "hiding behind the cross" - thats the only thing any of us can do do escape God's wrath.

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To what extent would you consider living your daily life to please God "erroneous and unbalanced"? There was no mention of "salvation by works".

Your statement "almost a guarantee of eternal life" is false doctrine.

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Salvation is salvation, works are works... never the twain shall meet. We are, however, commanded to live according to God's laws and follow the path laid out before us, by Him, in obedience to Him... all day, every day! This has nothing to do with salvation by works, this has everything to with faith.

I think you will easily be overbalanced toward legalism if this is your view of sanctification.

Think you'll ever conquer the flesh enough to say "all day every day" I obey?

Guess again, my friend.

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"Almost guaranteed"???

Poor choice of words, granted, but the point still remains. In fact, if a man says
that he is a believer and yet lives a wicked life of continual sin and debauchery,
he shows us that he is not the object of God's grace

At those times, yes.

And of course, 1 John tell us this.

A life of continual carnality denies the witness of Christ.

So whatcha wanna do, tell him he's not saved? He believes he is.

And you have no authority to make such judgments.

God is the convicter as well as the author and perfector.

Look, this is tricky stuff. I tell my boys "If you faith is not a reality,
it might not be real."

But I must be careful not to be legalistic and end up with "forced fruit".

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True faith always manifests itself in good works.

True. But it is not 24/7 and may be absent for a stretch.

We only bear fruit when we are Spirit-filled.

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This does not elude to a works-based salvation, this means that after a deep and meaningful regeneration of the heart and soul, at the foot of the Cross, a true and faithful believer is joyful in his faith. Indeed, the believer is far from perfect. Nevertheless, his sanctification implies that he does seek to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God.

I think you are very sincere and like me, understand a believer is a new creature
predestined for christlikeness and good works are prepared for us.

But we must guard ourselves against become judgmental "fruit inspectors"
which 1) will be a stumbling block to us loving the brethren and 2) its
not in our job description.

Just go on and live for him. You life will convict the true believer who is not bearing fruit.



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/13/2008 5:13:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

There is no sin a believer can commit which would result in the loss of his salvation. Why?....because man is not responsible for his salvation - God is. It is a free gift resulting solely from God's grace.
If God is totally, solely responsible for man's salvation then how does man obtain it? Does a person just wake up one day and realize that during the night God had saved them without their knowledge?
Sounds sort of like the "body snatchers" the way you put it :) But, there is an element of truth in it. We don't know the precise moment of regeneration. God does draw to Himself the one He intends to save. John 3 explains exactly how God spiritually resurrects man.

We don't see man having any input into his spiritual regeneration - totally a sovereign act of God. Man does cooperate with God as God sanctifies him. True salvation wrought by God will not fail to produce the good works that are its fruit (Mat 7:17).

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I know I'm looking at salvation in human terms but it seems to me that even a free gift would have certain conditions that need to be met before it's actually received by a person. I mean a free gift can be offered and refused, as well as offered and accepted.
If we must meet conditions, how is it free? How is it the grace of God if we are "owed" this because of our works/conditions met? We see this in Rom 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 8:24:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

If we must meet conditions, how is it free? How is it the grace of God if we are "owed" this because of our works/conditions met? We see this in Rom 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

But isn't being offered a free gift and doing nothing the same as refusing it? In order to accept a free gift one has to do something. That doesn't make it any less free, though. And the free gift doesn't become "owed" to us because of the conditions we meet to receive it. It's still a free gift.



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 4:33:13 AM)

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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

If we must meet conditions, how is it free? How is it the grace of God if we are "owed" this because of our works/conditions met? We see this in Rom 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

But isn't being offered a free gift and doing nothing the same as refusing it?
We don't find Scripture saying we are "offered" the gift of salvation.

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In order to accept a free gift one has to do something. That doesn't make it any less free, though. And the free gift doesn't become "owed" to us because of the conditions we meet to receive it. It's still a free gift.
How is it free if we must pay for it by meeting conditions?

Eph 2:8 says that salvation and/or faith are the gifts of God and we did nothing to gain them.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



rwe2156 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 7:25:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: disciplelife
This is not a reference to a true believer, I am taking about someone who claims
to be a believer, and yet, lives a life of sin and depravity, hiding behind the Cross,
thinking that they are covered because of some ill-taught or self-conceived notion that
"once saved, always saved".

And how will you know who these are?

I agree this is a huge problem in Christianity today because of false
teaching about eternal security and truthfully, the low expectations for
we seem to have for practical Christian living.

I think we need to go back to our doctrine and start preaching a
balanced doctrine & the whole gospel: the narrow gate AND the narrow road.

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To what extent would you consider living your daily life to please
God "erroneous and unbalanced"?

I do not. But to say this is "almost a guarantee of eternity" is plainly a works based view.

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We are, however, commanded to live according to God's laws and follow
the path laid out before us, by Him, in obedience to Him... all day, every day!
This has nothing to do with salvation by works, this has everything to with faith.

And if we don't? (And we can't) then what? We are to question our salvation?

We are to questions someone else's salvation?

Yes, this is a command with a view to obedience, but nobody can do it perfectly
and God knows that. He wants to see our heart set on obedience, not our wills.

If you walk in this light, fine, but might I suggest you are putting yourself
under the law again, and if you think you are meeting the commands you
have probably deceived yourself about what sin is?

quote:

"Almost guaranteed"???

Poor choice of words, granted, but the point still remains. In fact, if a man says
that he is a believer and yet lives a wicked life of continual sin and debauchery,
he shows us that he is not the object of God's grace.

Its tricky, DL. I say you must go to one like this and counsel them in love.

Let them know if we wilfuly and continually live a life of carnality,
there might be a fundamental problem at he beginning.

I would ask for their testimony of faith and ask them why they
think they are saved. Their answer will usually be most revealing.

I have found the ones I confront like this give me something like,
"I came forward on such and such a night" or "I was baptized at
such and such a place", or "I prayed to receive Christ with such
and such a preacher", "Nobody can lose their salvation", etc.
(At this point I tell them one can't lose what they never had!)

I go with this: If they have no testimony of faith today, then what happened
yesterday might - might not be real. At the least they are in need of
restoration and discipleship, at the most their assurance if based on sinking sand.

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True faith always manifests itself in good works.

Sure it does. The question is do we always do good works?

If we don't always do good works, does this men we have no faith?

We can choose to be Spirit-filled. When we choose to satisy the flesh
we will reap of the flesh. BUT - we will always be drawn to repentance
and this is the point: How do we feel when we disobey?

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Nevertheless, his sanctification implies that he does seek to do that
which is good and well-pleasing to God.

It doesn't "imply" it, it leads to it and it leads to sanctification.

I think we agree that holiness (separation unto God) is a guarantee for the believer.

However, we must guard our hearts against becoming the judge
or the "fruit inspector" as some term it. Our sinful, proud hearts
can become a stumbling block to prevent us from going to to a brother
admonishing him and loving him back into his faith OR possibly
bringing him to faith which he never had.



rwe2156 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 7:30:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
If God is totally, solely responsible for man's salvation then how does man obtain it?

By meeting certain conditions: Repenting and believing.

There are some who don't believe this, though.

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Does a person just wake up one day and realize that during the night
God had saved them without their knowledge?

I don't think there are any secret acts of salvation by God.

I think he wants each of us to have a testimony of faith in order to share Christ.

quote:

I know I'm looking at salvation in human terms but it seems to me that even
a free gift would have certain conditions that need to be met before it's actually
received by a person. I mean a free gift can be offered and refused, as well
as offered and accepted.

I think it clear the Bible teaches God's desire if for all men to be saved.

This alone is proof that man must play some part in his salvation.

Good points.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 8:38:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

We don't find Scripture saying we are "offered" the gift of salvation.

How can a gift be a gift unless it's offered and received? I don't get it.

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How is it free if we must pay for it by meeting conditions?

Eph 2:8 says that salvation and/or faith are the gifts of God and we did nothing to gain them.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I see nothing in this verse that says that the gift is free nor that we do nothing to gain it. But even if the gift is free, there are still conditions that need to be met in order to receive it. Perhaps you have another verse that says we do nothing to receive the gift?



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/16/2008 2:47:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

We don't find Scripture saying we are "offered" the gift of salvation.

How can a gift be a gift unless it's offered and received? I don't get it.
Your question reminds me of Isa 55:1. How can we buy without money? Yet, God tells us we can.

When salvation is left in the hands of the sinner instead of God, what is the ultimate cause of salvation? The sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, would be the ultimate cause of salvation.

The Bible tells us that the sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; that his heart is deceitful above all things and desperately corrupt. It makes no scriptural sense nor is it reasonable to think that this sinner is able of himself to savingly believe the gospel.

The sinner must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit making him alive and giving him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God. It is always God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, that is the ultimate cause of salvation.

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How is it free if we must pay for it by meeting conditions?

Eph 2:8 says that salvation and/or faith are the gifts of God and we did nothing to gain them.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I see nothing in this verse that says that the gift is free nor that we do nothing to gain it. But even if the gift is free, there are still conditions that need to be met in order to receive it. Perhaps you have another verse that says we do nothing to receive the gift?
I didn't use Eph 2:8 as evidence that salvation is a free gift, I thought we both agree that it is. You called it a free gift in your posts. I used this verse to show that neither salvation or faith is from ourselves. IOW, we don't do anything to obtain either - "and that not of yourselves".



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/16/2008 8:28:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

Your question reminds me of Isa 55:1. How can we buy without money? Yet, God tells us we can.
So, I shouldn't consider how we can? Is that kind of thinking out of bounds?

quote:

When salvation is left in the hands of the sinner instead of God, what is the ultimate cause of salvation? The sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, would be the ultimate cause of salvation.
Even though I don't necessarily agree that the sinner would be the ultimate cause of salvation, I do believe that the sinner plays a part in his own salvation. I think God expects that. However, that doesn't detract anything from what God does in a sinner's salvation.

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The Bible tells us that the sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; that his heart is deceitful above all things and desperately corrupt. It makes no scriptural sense nor is it reasonable to think that this sinner is able of himself to savingly believe the gospel.
Your probably right -- "it makes no scriptural sense . . . to think that a sinner is able of himself to savingly believe the gospel." I guess I just don't have any scriptural sense, otherwise why would I even be questioning this.

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The sinner must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit making him alive and giving him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God. It is always God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, that is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Even if faith is a part of the gift of salvation, how is that faith effective if its never exercised? I just can see a totally unconditional salvation, I guess. And I hesitate to blindly accept that there is such a thing just because some see it that way.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/16/2008 8:32:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

I didn't use Eph 2:8 as evidence that salvation is a free gift, I thought we both agree that it is. You called it a free gift in your posts. I used this verse to show that neither salvation or faith is from ourselves. IOW, we don't do anything to obtain either - "and that not of yourselves".


Yes, I've called salvation a gift. I may even have called it a free gift. If that's the case what I meant by that is that salvation is free in the sense that people don't have to do any works of the law in order to receive it. Nevertheless, they do have to do something, otherwise it seems to me that salvation is just zapped onto people without their knowledge or consent.



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/17/2008 2:12:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

Your question reminds me of Isa 55:1. How can we buy without money? Yet, God tells us we can.
So, I shouldn't consider how we can? Is that kind of thinking out of bounds?
I just said it reminds me of Isa 55:1. I thought there was a similarity between your question "Perhaps you have another verse that says we do nothing to receive the gift?" and buying without money. Okay, so you don’t see the connection I do. I wasn't implying you shouldn’t consider anything. In fact, I suggest we consider everything Scripture says.

There will be none to whom God gives the free gift of salvation who do not want it. When God recreates us, makes us spiritually alive, creates a new heart, gives new life, this enables us to come to Christ. Subsequently, by the grace of God, we actively engage in the exercise of faith and repentance.

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When salvation is left in the hands of the sinner instead of God, what is the ultimate cause of salvation? The sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, would be the ultimate cause of salvation.
Even though I don't necessarily agree that the sinner would be the ultimate cause of salvation,...
I don't see how that conclusion can be avoided, afterall, a sinner cannot get saved until a sinner decides to get saved...correct?

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...I do believe that the sinner plays a part in his own salvation. I think God expects that. However, that doesn't detract anything from what God does in a sinner's salvation.
Sure it detracts from what God does. Column #1 says God does it all, column #2 says man helps. Obviously, something must be detracted from God's column to be put into man's column.

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The Bible tells us that the sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; that his heart is deceitful above all things and desperately corrupt. It makes no scriptural sense nor is it reasonable to think that this sinner is able of himself to savingly believe the gospel.
Your probably right -- "it makes no scriptural sense . . . to think that a sinner is able of himself to savingly believe the gospel." I guess I just don't have any scriptural sense, otherwise why would I even be questioning this.
It makes perfect scriptural sense to question why we think the natural unspiritual man who is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God whose heart is deceitful above all things and desperately corrupt is capable of making a spiritual choice to have saving faith in Christ.

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The sinner must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit making him alive and giving him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God. It is always God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, that is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Even if faith is a part of the gift of salvation, how is that faith effective if its never exercised?
I never said faith isn't exercised, of course it is - Scripture is clear that it is.

quote:

I just can see a totally unconditional salvation, I guess. And I hesitate to blindly accept that there is such a thing just because some see it that way.
What is unconditional is regeneration - when the Holy Spirit makes us alive in Christ. And while there are no prerequisite conditions or works for salvation, still, the evidence of a true salvation is works/fruit.

Paul was willing to imprison and even kill those who believed the Christian message. This Gospel made no positive impression upon him until God first did something to open Paul's eyes, ears and the understanding of his heart, iow, the Holy Spirit made him spiritually alive in Christ. Then and only then was Paul able to savingly believe. And while Paul never met any "condition" other than being a great sinner, he certainly went on to give great "evidence" of salvation.

Perhaps we're not as far apart as it would first appear?



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/17/2008 2:16:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

I didn't use Eph 2:8 as evidence that salvation is a free gift, I thought we both agree that it is. You called it a free gift in your posts. I used this verse to show that neither salvation or faith is from ourselves. IOW, we don't do anything to obtain either - "and that not of yourselves".


Yes, I've called salvation a gift. I may even have called it a free gift. If that's the case what I meant by that is that salvation is free in the sense that people don't have to do any works of the law in order to receive it. Nevertheless, they do have to do something, otherwise it seems to me that salvation is just zapped onto people without their knowledge or consent.
....sort of like how Paul was "zapped" on the Damascus Road?



rwe2156 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/17/2008 5:59:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

I didn't use Eph 2:8 as evidence that salvation is a free gift, I thought we both agree that it is. You called it a free gift in your posts. I used this verse to show that neither salvation or faith is from ourselves. IOW, we don't do anything to obtain either - "and that not of yourselves".


Yes, I've called salvation a gift. I may even have called it a free gift. If that's the case what I meant by that is that salvation is free in the sense that people don't have to do any works of the law in order to receive it. Nevertheless, they do have to do something, otherwise it seems to me that salvation is just zapped onto people without their knowledge or consent.
....sort of like how Paul was "zapped" on the Damascus Road?

Paul's conversion was very unique and is not the general pattern of salvation.

BTW, Paul was chosen for a special purpose, and God needed to intercede
in Paul's life in a dramatic way.

He was not a lump of clay, my friend.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/17/2008 7:44:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

There will be none to whom God gives the free gift of salvation who do not want it. When God recreates us, makes us spiritually alive, creates a new heart, gives new life, this enables us to come to Christ. Subsequently, by the grace of God, we actively engage in the exercise of faith and repentance.

I can agree with this. God enables us to come to Christ, yet we must still do the coming. His enablement may be unconditional, but His enablement is not salvation. Yes, indeed, we actively engage in the exercise of faith and repentence. We do something.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/17/2008 7:47:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

....sort of like how Paul was "zapped" on the Damascus Road?

I don't believe Paul's "zapping" resulted in immediate salvation. After all, after three days of blindness, fasting, and prayer he was still in his sins. He had to do something in order for God to give him salvation. The "zapping" on the road was the offer of salvation.



Him4all -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/17/2008 6:08:49 PM)

quote:

I don't believe Paul's "zapping" resulted in immediate salvation. After all, after three days of blindness, fasting, and prayer he was still in his sins. He had to do something in order for God to give him salvation. The "zapping" on the road was the offer of salvation.


Do you say the above simply because he wasn't water baptized until several days after Jesus revealed himself? When Paul gave his testimony to Agrippa he didn't say he was made a minister after being baptized...but while on the road TO Damascus.

ACT 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Jesus didn't appear so he could go to Damascus and get saved. Scripture says Jesus "appeared to MAKE him a minister of what he had SEEN." I assume that was Paul's conversion experience, since that's all he told Aggripa about. Paul made no mentionin his testimonyto Agrippa about needing baptism with water.

DR



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/17/2008 11:09:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Him4all

quote:

I don't believe Paul's "zapping" resulted in immediate salvation. After all, after three days of blindness, fasting, and prayer he was still in his sins. He had to do something in order for God to give him salvation. The "zapping" on the road was the offer of salvation.


Do you say the above simply because he wasn't water baptized until several days after Jesus revealed himself? When Paul gave his testimony to Agrippa he didn't say he was made a minister after being baptized...but while on the road TO Damascus.

ACT 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Jesus didn't appear so he could go to Damascus and get saved. Scripture says Jesus "appeared to MAKE him a minister of what he had SEEN." I assume that was Paul's conversion experience, since that's all he told Aggripa about. Paul made no mentionin his testimonyto Agrippa about needing baptism with water.

DR
Certainly you quoted the verse correctly. However, to MAKE him a minister implies that it'll happen sometime in the future, not immediately. Do you really think Paul was a minister of Christ for three days while he was blind, fasting, praying and still living in his sins?

I contend that he wasn't made a minister until after he regained his sight and could once again see clearly.



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/18/2008 4:53:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

I didn't use Eph 2:8 as evidence that salvation is a free gift, I thought we both agree that it is. You called it a free gift in your posts. I used this verse to show that neither salvation or faith is from ourselves. IOW, we don't do anything to obtain either - "and that not of yourselves".


Yes, I've called salvation a gift. I may even have called it a free gift. If that's the case what I meant by that is that salvation is free in the sense that people don't have to do any works of the law in order to receive it. Nevertheless, they do have to do something, otherwise it seems to me that salvation is just zapped onto people without their knowledge or consent.
....sort of like how Paul was "zapped" on the Damascus Road?

Paul's conversion was very unique and is not the general pattern of salvation.

BTW, Paul was chosen for a special purpose, and God needed to intercede
in Paul's life in a dramatic way.

He was not a lump of clay, my friend.
Well, I didn't imply Paul was a "lump of clay" nor did I imply that this was a general pattern - getting knocked to the ground. What is "general", though, is that God sovereignly regenerates without man's "permission" - man is totally passive in regeneration. I know, I know ...blasphemy to a autonomous free willer.

We weren't speaking about election. We were specifically speaking about regeneration and whether man participates in it.



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/18/2008 4:56:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

There will be none to whom God gives the free gift of salvation who do not want it. When God recreates us, makes us spiritually alive, creates a new heart, gives new life, this enables us to come to Christ. Subsequently, by the grace of God, we actively engage in the exercise of faith and repentance.

I can agree with this. God enables us to come to Christ, yet we must still do the coming. His enablement may be unconditional, but His enablement is not salvation. Yes, indeed, we actively engage in the exercise of faith and repentence. We do something.
When you say "God enables us to come to Christ", this is what I mean by regeneration - God giving us a born again spirit. Once He does this, we will evidence our faith and committment to the Lord Jesus. So, I agree we do something; but, only after God first gives us a new spirit so that we can recognize the glory of the Lord Jesus.

Before God gives us this new spirit we are like the natural man Paul speaks about in 1Cor 2:14. We cannot spiritually discern the things of God.



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/18/2008 5:04:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

....sort of like how Paul was "zapped" on the Damascus Road?

I don't believe Paul's "zapping" resulted in immediate salvation. After all, after three days of blindness, fasting, and prayer he was still in his sins. He had to do something in order for God to give him salvation. The "zapping" on the road was the offer of salvation.
I think Paul was regenerated that day. God gave him a new "born from above" spirit, He quickened Paul and made him spiritually alive. And, yes, subsequent to that he "did" something.

But, one can never do anything to receive the free gift of eternal life from God. One can never do anything to aid in their spiritual birth. This is the sovereign prerogative of God.

The text(vs 17) says Paul was "filled with the Holy Ghost." which is the language Scripture uses for those who are about to speak the word of the Lord. And this is precisely what he did - went about and preached on behalf of the Gospel(vs 20).



kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/18/2008 5:14:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Him4all

quote:

I don't believe Paul's "zapping" resulted in immediate salvation. After all, after three days of blindness, fasting, and prayer he was still in his sins. He had to do something in order for God to give him salvation. The "zapping" on the road was the offer of salvation.


Do you say the above simply because he wasn't water baptized until several days after Jesus revealed himself? When Paul gave his testimony to Agrippa he didn't say he was made a minister after being baptized...but while on the road TO Damascus.

ACT 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Jesus didn't appear so he could go to Damascus and get saved. Scripture says Jesus "appeared to MAKE him a minister of what he had SEEN." I assume that was Paul's conversion experience, since that's all he told Aggripa about. Paul made no mentionin his testimonyto Agrippa about needing baptism with water.

DR
A very excellent point. Christ said He made Paul a "minister" which means a servant of His. God does all the work, does all that is necessary to bring a spiritually dead man to spiritual life.



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