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So, this warning is not for you? It's just for the other guy who sits across the pew?

On what basis do you think all the promises of God apply to you, but the warnings are all to somebody else? Do you think God will be impressed by this kind of logic on judgment day?

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ORIGINAL: Tychicus

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ORIGINAL: kelman
And who are those who will be interested in studying harder to come to truth?....not those so tightly locked and invested in particular denominational doctrines.

I would expand the "tightly locked and invested" to include not only those who strenuously argue for their denominational doctrine, but also those who are just ignorant of other views or who are generally weak on Bible knowledge. Their theological knowledge may come mostly from what they hear in church, or on popular "Christian radio".

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But I do not think Scripture is really that obscure. Of course, there are the parables, where you need "ears to hear"; but mostly the Scripture is meant for our instruction. As the famous passage, 2 Tim 3:16-17, says: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

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Even with clear teaching there is still plenty to study, trying to absorb all 66 books. And we also have to deal with a different original language, and different cultural understanding. And some concepts are not totally easy to grasp.....What did the 1st century readers really understand as they read these passages, given the theological understanding they would have had at that time.

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For that matter, God could have written Scripture specifically by telling us, for example : "now, don't get the wrong impression that your sins will be washed away in water baptism, it is simply a command I give to identify yourself as a Christian, similar to circumcision of the OT."

Yes, I guess on that topic God really meant to confuse us. On top of all you said he even threw in verses like Acts 22:16: "Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name."

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And of course in John 10 it is being used figuratively, and I would not suggest making a big theological point over it.

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Now, you say, "obviously it is the responsibility of the Shepherd to safely keep the sheep in the sheepfold; and, in fact, the Shepherd gave His life to do so(vs 11)." Well, perhaps it is "obvious" that Shepherds keep the sheep in the sheepfold, but that is not a point that Scripture makes. It is also the case that Shepherds sometimes butcher a sheep (especially a rebellious sheep). The Scripture does not bring up that point either.

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The Scripture says that the Shepherd lays down his life to protect the sheep from the wolf, or from the thief and robber. This is the clear lesson from Scripture. It does not talk about locking sheep up, or rebellious sheep, or lamb chops. So anyone is free to make up theological speculations about these topics. And anyone else is free to agree or disagree with them.

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ORIGINAL: wacotton

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ORIGINAL: doublecross

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Although, reformed theology denies that a true believer can fall away from the faith. That just isn't true. There are many passages which plainly states that fact, yet the reformed simple explain them all away by saying those weren't true believers. But they do so without any contexual support for their claims.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out of us, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Read the whole 1 John. It simply is telling us that he who leaves, abides in sin, hates his brother has never had the grace of God in the first place. I think the reformed simply got this right.

This passage in 1 John is referring to a specific group of people and does not apply to all situations and people.

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ORIGINAL: loveineffable
If Jesus had not done his job here on earth, Would he have been saved, risen from the grave?

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Did Jesus go around and say just believe and sit here and do nothing?

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Jesus's works were a by product of his trust in his Father right?
So w/o works, him abiding, would he have been saved anyway?

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I conclude that through faith in Christ one will work through that belief in Christ right?

So eternal security is residing on faith and works as a byproduct of that faith in Christ ?

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Yes, sheep do not turn into goats. But sheep do rebel and/or run away.

Well, I don't know...Christ is a pretty "solid" Door. Besides, you know what He says about leaving the 99 to find the 1 who has strayed.

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Nothing in here implies that it is the Father's will that some are not chosen because of some arbitrary decree of God.

Because we do not know all the reasons for God "choosing", there is no reason to propose they are arbitrary - if by that you mean capricious or unreasonable.

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I am not saying there is any definite teaching here on why "God chooses".

All God tells us of why He chooses is His desire to display His glory(Rom 9). We also see in Heb 11:16 God's purpose in election is to demonstrate mercy.

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ORIGINAL: kelman

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ORIGINAL: loveineffable
If Jesus had not done his job here on earth, Would he have been saved, risen from the grave?

We see that Jesus was tempted by Satan and was successful in overcoming the temptation - as Adam was not. Hmm, what would have happened had He not been successful here, is that what you're asking?

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Did Jesus go around and say just believe and sit here and do nothing?

No, Jesus was very clear that a believer will produce "fruit".

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Jesus's works were a by product of his trust in his Father right?
So w/o works, him abiding, would he have been saved anyway?

Because of who Christ is He was always obedient to the Father. Similarly, all believers should earnestly desire and diligently attempt to obey all that God commands. We, of course, cannot do it perfectly because...well, because we're not God.

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I conclude that through faith in Christ one will work through that belief in Christ right?

So eternal security is residing on faith and works as a byproduct of that faith in Christ ?

There is no work we can do to get saved; but, if we believe we have become saved yet we have no fruit/works - we ought to seriously think again.

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But I do not think Scripture is really that obscure. Of course, there are the parables, where you need "ears to hear"; but mostly the Scripture is meant for our instruction. As the famous passage, 2 Tim 3:16-17, says: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

Why then all the differing views on just about everything? I think the "ears to hear", "eyes to see" and "a heart to understand" is meant for all the Bible not just the parables.

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Romans is a case in point, it is a very difficult book. I've seen many different views practically on each passage in certain chapters. Aside from understanding as much of the historical aspects I don't see the value of trying to figure out what the original audience understood. How could we ever really know?

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kelman: For that matter, God could have written Scripture specifically by telling us, for example : "now, don't get the wrong impression that your sins will be washed away in water baptism, it is simply a command I give to identify yourself as a Christian, similar to circumcision of the OT."

Tychicus: Yes, I guess on that topic God really meant to confuse us. On top of all you said he even threw in verses like Acts 22:16: "Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name."

kelman: Remember your own admonition about particular verses from your favorite Bible teacher? Not too much difficulty with this particular verse, though, since we know Paul could not wash away his own sins. So, obviously we need to continue our search through Scripture to understand "baptism".

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. . . these forums are amazing...I had no idea what was out there. What I've seen so far, though, has only served to strengthen what I believe

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ORIGINAL: doublecross
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out of us, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

The simplest explanation by John was they were not really with us to start with. The same way with all apostate in every circumstance.

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ORIGINAL: Tychicus
Oh, all this is imagery (e.g. see John 10:6), so you may call Christ "solid" if you like. But really, the point in John 10 is that He protects his sheep. In fact, if you want to be completely literal, He isn't a particularly effective Door, since the thief and robber can "climb in by another way" (10:1).

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So perhaps the rebellious sheep can likewise "climb out by another way". Nothing particular is said in this passage about sheep who rebel or try to escape, so I don't see how you can make a theological point on that issue.

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However in the next parable of Luke (the "prodigal son") the son did run away. The father did not stop him. The father did not cause the son to repent. It just says that the son "came to his senses", repented, and returned home. Only then was he again under his father's care.

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Because we do not know all the reasons for God "choosing", there is no reason to propose they are arbitrary - if by that you mean capricious or unreasonable.

Right. We do not know all the reasons for God "choosing". Because of this I do not think it is wise to build a Grand Theology based on a particular understanding of the way God chooses people.

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All God tells us of why He chooses is His desire to display His glory(Rom 9). We also see in Heb 11:16 God's purpose in election is to demonstrate mercy.

(I am not sure you mean Heb 11:16. Perhaps Rom 9:16?)

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Well, God does tell us other things, e.g Matt 11:25-26 as I mentioned previously. Or James 2:5: "Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him."

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As for Rom 9, there are some reasons given for God's choosing. For example, look at the illustration of the potter in 9:21 and refer back to the reference in Jeremiah 18:5-11. Or look at the summary statement in Rom 9:30-32. So it is not a complete answer to say that the only explanation given as to why God chooses is "His desire to display his glory".

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ORIGINAL: loveineffable

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ORIGINAL: kelman

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ORIGINAL: loveineffable
If Jesus had not done his job here on earth, Would he have been saved, risen from the grave?

We see that Jesus was tempted by Satan and was successful in overcoming the temptation - as Adam was not. Hmm, what would have happened had He not been successful here, is that what you're asking?

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Did Jesus go around and say just believe and sit here and do nothing?

No, Jesus was very clear that a believer will produce "fruit".

quote:

Jesus's works were a by product of his trust in his Father right?
So w/o works, him abiding, would he have been saved anyway?

Because of who Christ is He was always obedient to the Father. Similarly, all believers should earnestly desire and diligently attempt to obey all that God commands. We, of course, cannot do it perfectly because...well, because we're not God.

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I conclude that through faith in Christ one will work through that belief in Christ right?

So eternal security is residing on faith and works as a byproduct of that faith in Christ ?

There is no work we can do to get saved; but, if we believe we have become saved yet we have no fruit/works - we ought to seriously think again.

Thanks Kelman and I agree, for the faith and works go hand in hand.
Now the works i am saying is God's through the believer, from the believers faith in Christ.
This is not works on my part at all. it is the result of faith. W/o the result then i think I would need to reexamine what I believe
Loveineffable

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ORIGINAL: Tychicus
But I do not think Scripture is really that obscure. Of course, there are the parables, where you need "ears to hear"; but mostly the Scripture is meant for our instruction. As the famous passage, 2 Tim 3:16-17, says: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

Why then all the differing views on just about everything? I think the "ears to hear", "eyes to see" and "a heart to understand" is meant for all the Bible not just the parables.

Hi kelman,

You are quite right that there are different views. But is that because God made the Scriptures purposely obscure? Man can do quite well obscuring God's word on his own.

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Romans is a case in point, it is a very difficult book. I've seen many different views practically on each passage in certain chapters. Aside from understanding as much of the historical aspects I don't see the value of trying to figure out what the original audience understood. How could we ever really know?

There is linguistic as well as historical evidence, and it all helps. But the main thing for me is just to read it straight out for what Paul was saying and why, and not worry about all the opinions flying out there.

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It helps to figure out who he means when he says "someone will say", etc. The "someone" will represent an opposing position the Roman church recognized. By doing that the book makes more sense than if you think Paul is purposely answering theological questions that were thought up in the middle ages.

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It also helps to recognize that a good part of Romans is dealing with first century issues, e.g. about God's glory and promises to Israel, and not so much as a technical treatise on "God's requirements for man's salvation", as we may treat it today. John Piper (whom I suspect you recognize) has written about this in his book "The Righteousness of God", and there are other books as well (if Piper is too Calvinist for you).

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This is just a clear example of what you said about God throwing in a confusing verse. I certainly did not want to imply that God put this verse here to make you change your view. It was put there to make you study harder to prove that your original view was right after all.

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That way, as you said above:

. . . these forums are amazing...I had no idea what was out there. What I've seen so far, though, has only served to strengthen what I believe

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ORIGINAL: loco79

1 Corinthians 9:27
but I pommel my body and
subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself
should be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let any one who
thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Galatians 5:1,4
. . . stand fast therefore, and do
not submit again to a yoke of slavery . . . You are
severed from Christ, you who would be justified by
the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Philippians 3:11-14
that if possible I may attain
the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have
already obtained this or am already perfect; but I
press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus
has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider
that I have made it my own . . . I press on toward
the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in
Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that
in later times some will depart from the faith by
giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of
demons.

1 Timothy 5:15
For some have already strayed
after Satan.

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brethren, lest there
be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading
you to fall away from the living God. But exhort
one another every day . . . that none of you may be
hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share
in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm
to the end.

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ORIGINAL: wacotton

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ORIGINAL: doublecross
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out of us, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

The simplest explanation by John was they were not really with us to start with. The same way with all apostate in every circumstance.

John never said it was the same way with all apostate in every circumstance. That is your assumption. Again John was dealing with a specific group of people and in no way said that this was a pattern for all other situations.

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ORIGINAL: doublecross

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ORIGINAL: wacotton

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ORIGINAL: doublecross
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out of us, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

The simplest explanation by John was they were not really with us to start with. The same way with all apostate in every circumstance.

John never said it was the same way with all apostate in every circumstance. That is your assumption. Again John was dealing with a specific group of people and in no way said that this was a pattern for all other situations.

An oversimplified statement like that does not change the fact that John was talking about those who are in darkness and those who are in the light. The main reason for the letter is to encourage the believers because there seem to be among them that stirs decent. In the process John goes ahead and tells them the very truth of their counterfit religion. As he describes them who are wolves in sheeps' clothings, he lays them all to bear showing that their characteristics are generally true to those who have false faith.

Because it is clear in and of itself, I'll just let scripture speak for itself.

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him (Jesus) and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

2: 9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him[c] to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

4:6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

4:19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

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ORIGINAL: doublecross

HUH!?

(I don't get it, loveineffable.)

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So perhaps the rebellious sheep can likewise "climb out by another way". Nothing particular is said in this passage about sheep who rebel or try to escape, so I don't see how you can make a theological point on that issue.

Well, this parable doesn't speak to "rebellious sheep". It speaks about the sheep of the Good Shepherd who knows each of His sheep by name(10:3). And these sheep won't "rebel" by following a stranger(10:5).

Sure we can use this parable to make a theological point. It's not as if the rest of Scripture doesn't tell us that Christ is the only Way.

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However in the next parable of Luke (the "prodigal son") the son did run away. The father did not stop him. The father did not cause the son to repent. It just says that the son "came to his senses", repented, and returned home. Only then was he again under his father's care.

All men need to "come to their senses". We are far from God until we do. But, man only begins to "hunger" and recognize his deplorable condition, as did the prodigal son, when God makes him aware of it and turns him to Himself. Man is then no longer ruled by what God calls his "desperately wicked and deceitful above all things" heart.

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Right. We do not know all the reasons for God "choosing". Because of this I do not think it is wise to build a Grand Theology based on a particular understanding of the way God chooses people.

I don't know anyone who has, do you?

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Anyway, yes, of course, Rom 9; but also we see in Eph 1:5 that God elects "according to the good pleasure of his will".
. . .
We know He chooses according to His own will and to make known the riches of His glory - that is Rom 9:23. As far as I can see that is all we know for sure.

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Tychicus: As for Rom 9, there are some reasons given for God's choosing. For example, look at the illustration of the potter in 9:21 and refer back to the reference in Jeremiah 18:5-11. Or look at the summary statement in Rom 9:30-32. So it is not a complete answer to say that the only explanation given as to why God chooses is "His desire to display his glory".

kelman: Yes, it is the sovereign choice of the "potter" what he does with what he creates....this is the point of both Rom 9:21 and Jer 18:6.

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ORIGINAL: Tychicus
However the parable never discusses "rebellious sheep", so you cannot make a point about that topic.

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At bottom, you are making the assumption that rebellious sheep cannot exist, or at least that one of Jesus's sheep cannot rebel. Nowhere is this stated in Scripture, whether in John 10 or anywhere else. Just because he "knows their name" does not mean they cannot rebel. God knew Adam's name, and nevertheless Adam rebelled.

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If one of Jesus's sheep rebels then is he no longer listening to Jesus's voice, and might follow a stranger. He effectively no longer counts as a sheep of Jesus. There is nothing illogical about this. The Scripture never says this cannot happen.