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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2007 10:26:12 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1436
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
Actually my OSAS doctrine, says you can't live like the devil, because if you are and aren't repentant, and don't feel any different about sin than you did before, then you weren't really saved in the first place. I see the parable of the vineyard in the way I just described. If one sees salvation in the 2 ways you described, it is dangerous.
Does any etertnal security-believer say that a believer can "live like the devil" and remain saved, or is that purely a myth taught by those who believe they live without sinning? I have only heard that accusation claimed by those who think they live without sinning but never by eternal security-believers.
I had a baptist pastor tell me in exact terms, "no matter what you do you can't lose your salvation"
What the pastor said may or may not have been appropriate; I don't know the context. Because a pastor might teach "once saved always saved" (I dislike the phrase) in a way that would give license to sin does not change one way or another what the Bible states concerning the perseverance of the saints. I have heard many preach and teach OSAS in a way that made me cringe, but I have known responsible Baptist pastors who would not teach the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in a way that would promote antinomianism.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2007 11:43:46 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2831
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
Actually my OSAS doctrine, says you can't live like the devil, because if you are and aren't repentant, and don't feel any different about sin than you did before, then you weren't really saved in the first place. I see the parable of the vineyard in the way I just described. If one sees salvation in the 2 ways you described, it is dangerous.
Does any etertnal security-believer say that a believer can "live like the devil" and remain saved, or is that purely a myth taught by those who believe they live without sinning? I have only heard that accusation claimed by those who think they live without sinning but never by eternal security-believers.
I had a baptist pastor tell me in exact terms, "no matter what you do you can't lose your salvation"
I have been around all kinds of Baptists by now, beginning with when I placed my children in a Baptist school in Minneapolis, and so far, I have run into only one Baptist person who believed that salvation was a Bandaid for sins committed after salvation, giving her the right to commit a few. She was one of the sweetest, gentlest, most generous ladies I have ever known, that I only saw sin once -- the time I already related.
The idea that one can be saved then "live like the devil" is just not what I have heard or seen among Baptists. Now, I have seen it in other religions, but not Baptist. I have the highest respect for those Baptists that I know.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2007 6:24:20 PM
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GodisLove1
Posts: 51
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
quote:
I don't live in fear because I choose to live as close to Christ as I can because I love Him and I want to please Him.Some time ago,after hearing over an over how people who believe they could lose their salvation,I went to my dad,He was in the ministry for 60yrs,and I asked him if he lived in fear of loseing his salvation?
Why did you go and ask your dad if he was afraid? Did the words of those whom preached over and over again about how one could lose their salvation startle you? It would me.
I remember when I was a child and after I had accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior, I would sometimes hear a message in church or from an individual that seemed to suggest you could loose your salvation and others that suggested that if you do this and that... or don't do this and that... then you probably have never truly been saved. This would always put fear in me. I knew I meant it in my heart when I asked Jesus to save me. So, I thought, if he didn't really save me the first time I asked him to, and these things I do are proof that he didn't, how will I know he really will if I asked him again? I could come to no other conclusion but, I would have to live the rest of my life without ever commiting another sin. I knew I couldn't do that, because I live in this sinful flesh, just as we all do.
Nevertheless, I would then try to look around and find proof that I was truly saved. Often, I would see how mean and hurtful some others around me were to other people and that would give me a since of peace about myself because I didn't think I was mean and hurtful to others. So, that was, I guess, a sort of proof (in my mind) that Christ was in me. As I grew older however, when those doubts about my salvation would arise, I could find no peace in comparing my sins to the sins of others. Actually, the very fact I would try to, gave me a great deal of guilt as if I was trying to prove to myself that I was saved (or still saved) by the deeds of my flesh.
One may say; "it wouldn't startle you if you were living in a way that was pleasing to the Lord." For me to say such a thing to someone, would, I believe, give me much room for boasting. I believe it would say to that person, "if you lived like I do instead of the way you do, you wouldn't be afraid." This only suggest that we have to live a certain way after accepting Christ as our Savior, in order to remain acceptable to God. If that were true, then Christ died for nothing.
For, it is NOT how we live or don't live that makes us pleasing to God; rather it is the shed blood of Jesus Christ that makes us acceptable to God. Nothing more and nothing less.
I want to live close to God, because I know how much he loves me! He died for me before I ever knew him, and he did it because he knew I would fail his commands. So, out of love, he died to pay for my transgressions before I was ever even born, before I was even his child. How much more do you think he loves us now that he has made us, whom have believed on him, his children, through his Son Jesus?
The Bible tells us that it's impossible to please God without faith. So, what can we do?
We can believe that Christ is who he claimed to be (the Lord God), that he has done what he says he's done for us (paid the full penalty for all our sins), That if we believe on him, we HAVE eternal life, and that he will never cast us out, that no man can pluck us from his fathers hand, and that he will never forsake us....Ever! For these are his unconditional promises to us who have believed on him.
That said, sometimes when I would fear, it would leave me feeling like I just didn't have "enough" faith or that I didn't truly trust that Jesus had done in me, what he promised he would after that I had called upon him to save me. This caused a great deal of shame, and guilt and only left me feeling like I was a disappointment to the Lord. Not for anything I had done or not done, but simply because I was so fearful. I would find myself pleading with the Lord to forgive me for my doubt's so that this awful fear would leave me. Then I would wonder if it was my boubts that was causing my fear or my fear that was causing my doubts? Either way your in a pickle.
In a nutshell, I had concluded (in my mind), for me to believe I could loose the gift of eternal life, would be to doubt the promises of God, which would cause me to fear, and rightly so.
At the same time however, for me to fear I had (or could) loose the gift of eternal life, was to doubt I posessed the faith and trust required for me to be saved.
That would keep me wondering how I could gain more trust and more faith.
I couldn't, but the Lord could give it to me! and he does give it freely. See, even the faith through which were saved, by grace is a gift from God, not something we earn or attain by any act of our own. Would God take our faith away for any reason? Of course not.
I just can't bring myself to tell anyone there probably not a Christian or there probably no longer a Christian because there not living a life that "I" think is pleasing to God.
That suggests that to be or remain a Christian we have to follow certain rules. We don't! God was pleased to send his Son Jesus to the cross to set us free from the penalty of sin and the burden of ritual rule keeping as all our works are filthy rags.
Let us give Him glory for the great things He has done!
He loves us just the way we are and if there is anything he wants to change about us, it is our heart. To love unconditionally, as he does, even those who disagree with us on whatever topic.
God Bless
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/9/2007 1:39:05 PM
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GodisLove1
Posts: 51
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quote:
I had a baptist pastor tell me in exact terms, "no matter what you do you can't lose your salvation"
...And rightly so. Once you have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you are instantly given eternal life. That is God's gift to us. You have been born again, into God's eternal family. You are now his child!
We all know no one can be "un-born" and if that life we have been born into is eternal, then it is eternal isn't it?
Maybe you get the impression, from such a statement, that baptist believe they have the "Right" to live as badly as they want too after being saved. That's not true.
Rather, they believe that God loved us so much, even as willfull sinners, that he sent his Son Jesus, to die for or transgressions. A love like that is beyond our full understanding!
So, baptist don't, for the most part, believe the death of Christ gives them a "right" to sin. But, rather His death has pardoned us from sin and "all unrightousness" that we cant help but commit according to his great law.
We know we can't do anything to earn his forgiveness, and we know we live in sinfull bodies.
Therefore, we still commit sins, even though we don't want too. it's not like were thumbing our nose at God, rather its seeing the truth of his word displayed in our sinful flesh and being thankfull that he loves us in spite of our sins.
To say we don't sin, even as Christians, is to deny the truth of the gospels.
Of course, we strive to be kind, one to another and to be obedient to the Lord. But, not because we fear he will cast us into hell if were not. For he has already conquered sin and death for us all. No, but it is out of love for him who has given us eternal life when we know we don't deserve it. Furthermore, even the love we have for him, is from him.
Praise be to God for His enduring grace and mercy.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2007 9:38:38 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 768
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
quote:
I had a baptist pastor tell me in exact terms, "no matter what you do you can't lose your salvation"
...And rightly so. Once you have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you are instantly given eternal life. That is God's gift to us. You have been born again, into God's eternal family. You are now his child!
Here is the Americanization of the Gospel with this term "instantly". Americans want everything instantly, even their salvation but God says in His word to "work out your salvaton with fear and trembling". Paul also said that he kept his body under subjection lest he should be a castaway. These verses and others do not fit your "instant" gospel.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2007 12:28:23 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2831
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It is so very easy to diminish another whose doctrine does not agree with our own, rather than thinking things through completely, seeing where that person is coming from, and being kind in our answers.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2007 12:40:40 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2831
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One of the many things that initially led me to the beliefs I now hold is this: I could not wrap my head around all the people who claimed to believe they were capable of keeping their own salvation, but whom I had watched being constantly unsuccessful in their endeavor, going to hell because they kept losing their salvation.
Just from my own perception and interaction with them, those people did some outrageous things that were horridly sinful against me and against members of my family -- things for which they refused to repent and never repented. Yet, according to their own doctrine, this would cause them to lose their salvation, they would have to be resaved, and they would need to make restitution. I wish I could look back and say, "Yes, I remember one of them doing this!" But I can't! Not one! Therefore, they have and will died in their sins just because of their actions against me and my family, not even considering anything they have done against others!
I do not wish hell on any of them -- not even on the worst of them! And three of them have already died -- one a married pastor old enough to be my grandfather who kissed me inappropriately when I was a teen and the other a pastor who touched me inappropriately -- and they died without repenting for their actions! Repenting, according to their written and stated beliefs, would have included asking to be resaved and coming to me to apologize.
So the first time I even thought to entertain an eternal salvation, it was because I could not possibly with hell on them, which their teaching demanded. There had to be another way. This was what initially pushed me toward looking into the Scriptures and asking questions.
G-d, HELP those who believe they keep themselves in His hands!
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2007 1:40:59 PM
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GodisLove1
Posts: 51
Joined: 8/23/2006
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quote:
Here is the Americanization of the Gospel with this term "instantly". Americans want everything instantly, even their salvation but God says in His word to "work out your salvaton with fear and trembling". Paul also said that he kept his body under subjection lest he should be a castaway. These verses and others do not fit your "instant" gospel.
well sorry, but that is what the Bible teaches. It has nothing to do with being "Americanized" unless other countries of the world have a different bible.
The Scriptures tell us that "now is the day of salvation".
How long does it take to be born?
How do you know when you have finally been saved?
If your answer to either of these two questions are anything other than, "When I confessed with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believed in my heart that God had raised him from the dead" or "when I called upon the name of the Lord to forgive me of my sins and save me", then I can come to no other conclusion that you are basing you ultimate salvation on your own works.
see this link
http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=php&chapter=2&verse=12
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2007 7:06:18 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 768
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
quote:
Here is the Americanization of the Gospel with this term "instantly". Americans want everything instantly, even their salvation but God says in His word to "work out your salvaton with fear and trembling". Paul also said that he kept his body under subjection lest he should be a castaway. These verses and others do not fit your "instant" gospel.
well sorry, but that is what the Bible teaches. It has nothing to do with being "Americanized" unless other countries of the world have a different bible.
The Scriptures tell us that "now is the day of salvation".
How long does it take to be born?
How do you know when you have finally been saved?
If your answer to either of these two questions are anything other than, "When I confessed with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believed in my heart that God had raised him from the dead" or "when I called upon the name of the Lord to forgive me of my sins and save me", then I can come to no other conclusion that you are basing you ultimate salvation on your own works.
see this link
http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=php&chapter=2&verse=12
Salvation is not an event.
Salvation is a person, Jesus Christ.
Whoever is found in Christ will be saved.
Whoever is not found in Christ will be lost.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2007 7:46:13 PM
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GodisLove1
Posts: 51
Joined: 8/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Salvation is not an event.
Salvation is a person, Jesus Christ.
Whoever is found in Christ will be saved.
Whoever is not found in Christ will be lost.
It certainly is an event!
John 3:16
For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believe on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
"If thou shall confess with thy mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ and Believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Jesus Christ is much more than salvation. He is the eternal God in the 2nd personage of the Holy Trinity, whom was, is and always shall be. Salvation is not who he is, it is what he has bought for us through the willful sacrifice of his own spotless blood.
Salvation is what he purchased for us, because who he is, is LOVE!
Who then shall be found "in Christ"? Those whom, after hearing the word of thier salvation, believed. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
So then whom shall not be found in Christ? Those who have not believed.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2007 7:46:25 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1436
Joined: 3/11/2007
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wacottonquote:
Salvation is not an event.
Salvation is a person, Jesus Christ.
Whoever is found in Christ will be saved.
Whoever is not found in Christ will be lost.
It is as much an event as a baby being born into the world. Being born the second time - being born again - is an event. Genuine believers are made new creations in Christ - in His death, burial and resurrection. This means we were made to die to the law, sin and death; and have been raised with Christ in newness of life. This is an event to thank God for throughout eternity.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2007 12:35:47 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 768
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
quote:
Salvation is not an event.
Salvation is a person, Jesus Christ.
Whoever is found in Christ will be saved.
Whoever is not found in Christ will be lost.
It certainly is an event!
John 3:16
For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believe on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
"If thou shall confess with thy mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ and Believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Jesus Christ is much more than salvation. He is the eternal God in the 2nd personage of the Holy Trinity, whom was, is and always shall be. Salvation is not who he is, it is what he has bought for us through the willful sacrifice of his own spotless blood.
Salvation is what he purchased for us, because who he is, is LOVE!
Who then shall be found "in Christ"? Those whom, after hearing the word of thier salvation, believed. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
So then whom shall not be found in Christ? Those who have not believed.
Your scriptures do not disprove what I am saying or negate the one's that I gave.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2007 12:52:52 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 768
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
wacottonquote:
Salvation is not an event.
Salvation is a person, Jesus Christ.
Whoever is found in Christ will be saved.
Whoever is not found in Christ will be lost.
It is as much an event as a baby being born into the world. Being born the second time - being born again - is an event. Genuine believers are made new creations in Christ - in His death, burial and resurrection. This means we were made to die to the law, sin and death; and have been raised with Christ in newness of life. This is an event to thank God for throughout eternity.
Blessings,
SH
First of all I said that Salvation was not an event, I said nothing about the new birth. A birth is just a beginning, it is not the end. That is why there are warnings about abiding in Christ and enduring to the end.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2007 1:10:56 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1436
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
First of all I said that Salvation was not an event, I said nothing about the new birth. A birth is just a beginning, it is not the end. That is why there are warnings about abiding in Christ and enduring to the end.
What is your definition of salvation? How does the new birth relate to salvation? Are those born again not saved from the wrath to come?
blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2007 5:10:04 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 768
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
First of all I said that Salvation was not an event, I said nothing about the new birth. A birth is just a beginning, it is not the end. That is why there are warnings about abiding in Christ and enduring to the end.
What is your definition of salvation? How does the new birth relate to salvation? Are those born again not saved from the wrath to come?
blessings,
SH
Relationship!
Hebrews 10:35-39
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2007 6:02:45 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1436
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
First of all I said that Salvation was not an event, I said nothing about the new birth. A birth is just a beginning, it is not the end. That is why there are warnings about abiding in Christ and enduring to the end.
What is your definition of salvation? How does the new birth relate to salvation? Are those born again not saved from the wrath to come?
blessings,
SH
Relationship!
Hebrews 10:35-39
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Is this relationship possible without a sinner being born again?
You must be born again . . .
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2007 12:34:22 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 768
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
First of all I said that Salvation was not an event, I said nothing about the new birth. A birth is just a beginning, it is not the end. That is why there are warnings about abiding in Christ and enduring to the end.
What is your definition of salvation? How does the new birth relate to salvation? Are those born again not saved from the wrath to come?
blessings,
SH
Relationship!
Hebrews 10:35-39
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Is this relationship possible without a sinner being born again?
You must be born again . . .
Blessings,
SH
I never said a person didn't have to be born again.
I said that being born again is just a beginning.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2007 5:45:39 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1436
Joined: 3/11/2007
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wacotton,
quote:
I never said a person didn't have to be born again.
I said that being born again is just a beginning.
You said that salvation was not an event. Isn't being born again essential in salvation? Isn't being born again an event? If you are not born again you are not saved; God does not receive anyone into fellowship with Himself unless He has a nature that is compatible with His holiness. It is only those who are born againn who have a desire to be with Christ becaue they marvel at Him, love and value His holiness and desire to live in such a way that exalts His name in creation.
All that are in relationship with Christ Jesus are those who are born again. Only those who are born again are in relationship with Christ. All those who are saved from the wrath to come are born again. All those who are born again are saved from the wrath to come. Without the event of being born again no one is brought into a relationship with Christ. Without an event no man is saved from the wrath to come.
A person who is born again is a person in whom God is working both to will and do of His good pleasure. This person is saved in the present. God is well able to keep this person from falling in order for this person to be ultimately saved in the future. It is all based upon God’s work of regeneration that brings a person to desire Christ, value Christ, and love Christ. It is this enabling work within the genuine believer that not only saves him now, but enables him to persevere unto ultimate salvation. Ultimate salvation is assured because a person is born again and brought into fellowship with the Son of God.
I can remember when I was not saved (born again) and when I knew I was saved (born again). After being born again I knew I was justified by faith and I rejoiced in the hope of the glory of God. I was changed through regeneration in such a powerful way that I fixed my hope on the grace to be brought to me at the revelation of Jesus Christ. I was saved in hope, and ever since I eagerly wait for God’s redemption in Christ where I will see Him face to face.
Salvation is very much an event. It had its beginning and continues and is assured in such a way that I can rejoice in it.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2007 10:12:03 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 768
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
wacotton,
quote:
I never said a person didn't have to be born again.
I said that being born again is just a beginning.
You said that salvation was not an event. Isn't being born again essential in salvation? Isn't being born again an event? If you are not born again you are not saved; God does not receive anyone into fellowship with Himself unless He has a nature that is compatible with His holiness. It is only those who are born againn who have a desire to be with Christ becaue they marvel at Him, love and value His holiness and desire to live in such a way that exalts His name in creation.
All that are in relationship with Christ Jesus are those who are born again. Only those who are born again are in relationship with Christ. All those who are saved from the wrath to come are born again. All those who are born again are saved from the wrath to come. Without the event of being born again no one is brought into a relationship with Christ. Without an event no man is saved from the wrath to come.
A person who is born again is a person in whom God is working both to will and do of His good pleasure. This person is saved in the present. God is well able to keep this person from falling in order for this person to be ultimately saved in the future. It is all based upon God’s work of regeneration that brings a person to desire Christ, value Christ, and love Christ. It is this enabling work within the genuine believer that not only saves him now, but enables him to persevere unto ultimate salvation. Ultimate salvation is assured because a person is born again and brought into fellowship with the Son of God.
I can remember when I was not saved (born again) and when I knew I was saved (born again). After being born again I knew I was justified by faith and I rejoiced in the hope of the glory of God. I was changed through regeneration in such a powerful way that I fixed my hope on the grace to be brought to me at the revelation of Jesus Christ. I was saved in hope, and ever since I eagerly wait for God’s redemption in Christ where I will see Him face to face.
Salvation is very much an event. It had its beginning and continues and is assured in such a way that I can rejoice in it.
Blessings,
SH
Being born again does not constitute salvation by itself. Yes one must be born again in order to be saved but that is just the beginning. Jesus did not say "one who is born again is saved". Jesus said that a person could not see (Greek word = perceive) the Kingdom of God. He didn't even say enter, He said just to see it.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2007 12:02:21 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1436
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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wacotton,
quote:
Being born again does not constitute salvation by itself. Yes one must be born again in order to be saved but that is just the beginning. Jesus did not say "one who is born again is saved". Jesus said that a person could not see (Greek word = perceive) the Kingdom of God. He didn't even say enter, He said just to see it.
Are you saying that being "born again" solely gives the ability to see the Kingdom of God? Do you think that being “born again” is merely the enablement to see the kingdom in order to choose it or reject it?
Is being "born again" in your mind the same as being placed in Christ and being a "new creation"?
Are you saying is that a person can be born again, but not saved at one and the same time; that salvation is never present tense, but always future?
Interested,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2007 6:18:44 PM
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GodisLove1
Posts: 51
Joined: 8/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
quote:
Salvation is not an event.
Salvation is a person, Jesus Christ.
Whoever is found in Christ will be saved.
Whoever is not found in Christ will be lost.
It certainly is an event!
John 3:16
For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believe on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
"If thou shall confess with thy mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ and Believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Jesus Christ is much more than salvation. He is the eternal God in the 2nd personage of the Holy Trinity, whom was, is and always shall be. Salvation is not who he is, it is what he has bought for us through the willful sacrifice of his own spotless blood.
Salvation is what he purchased for us, because who he is, is LOVE!
Who then shall be found "in Christ"? Those whom, after hearing the word of thier salvation, believed. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
So then whom shall not be found in Christ? Those who have not believed.
Your scriptures do not disprove what I am saying or negate the one's that I gave.
First of all, they are NOT my scriptures, there God's. Neither is it my, as you call it, "instant gospel" but it is God's.
Tell me, when have you ever recieved a GIFT and it was not instantanious?
If a gift is not received instantly, then when is it received, and under what condition(s)?
If I told you I have bought you a gift, but I cant give it to you until you prove yourself worthy, then it becomes a wage and not a gift at all. The Bible, is very clear on this.
However if I told you I have bought you a gift, and I will give it to without conditions attached and you believe me, then it is as good as yours, unless I go back on my word. God don't go back on his word.
For none of us are worthy of what God has done for us through his Son Jesus.
Therefore, every gift, whether from God or man, is received instantly. Otherwise, its no gift at all!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2007 6:06:35 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 768
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
wacotton,
quote:
Being born again does not constitute salvation by itself. Yes one must be born again in order to be saved but that is just the beginning. Jesus did not say "one who is born again is saved". Jesus said that a person could not see (Greek word = perceive) the Kingdom of God. He didn't even say enter, He said just to see it.
Are you saying that being "born again" solely gives the ability to see the Kingdom of God? Do you think that being “born again” is merely the enablement to see the kingdom in order to choose it or reject it?
Is being "born again" in your mind the same as being placed in Christ and being a "new creation"?
Are you saying is that a person can be born again, but not saved at one and the same time; that salvation is never present tense, but always future?
Interested,
SH
Being born again is simply a birth. If you look at the parable of the sower you will see that the seed did take root in some but they fell away because of persecution. There was a birth of sorts but they never grew to maturity.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2007 6:24:03 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 768
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
First of all, they are NOT my scriptures, there God's. Neither is it my, as you call it, "instant gospel" but it is God's.
Tell me, when have you ever recieved a GIFT and it was not instantanious?
If a gift is not received instantly, then when is it received, and under what condition(s)?
If I told you I have bought you a gift, but I cant give it to you until you prove yourself worthy, then it becomes a wage and not a gift at all. The Bible, is very clear on this.
However if I told you I have bought you a gift, and I will give it to without conditions attached and you believe me, then it is as good as yours, unless I go back on my word. God don't go back on his word.
For none of us are worthy of what God has done for us through his Son Jesus.
Therefore, every gift, whether from God or man, is received instantly. Otherwise, its no gift at all!
I think you are over exagerating everything. I was not trying to say that the scriptures were yours, my meaning was the scriptures that you used or gave as reference. I find it very hard to believe that you actually thought that.
Salvation is not like any other earthly gift. Salvation is not some idea or ideology. Salvation is bound up in the person of Jesus Christ. It is true that there is nothing we can do to deserve or earn salvation but there are many warnings about abiding and enduring to the end which cannot be ignored. The most powerful ones are in Matthew 18 and Luke 12.
Matthew 18:21-35
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will | | |
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