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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2007 11:52:44 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
My ability to abide is not the basis of assurance, but God's work of placing me in Christ and receiving all the benefits that involves.
I'm sorry if I misunderstand you, and I hope I do, ... because this really sounds like a perversion of God's grace.
Clearly, our "ability" is not the basis of assurance, but our "abiding" is. There is much scripture to discredit the belief that abiding does not assure us of salvation.
quote:
I boast in the Lord, not in my abiding.
Statements such as this are perplexing to me, as I can't see where they come from or the reason for them. Who claims to be boasting in their abiding?
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 12:33:24 AM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1002
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quote:
There is no more to it than has been said before. As previously pointed out, you have eternal life in the sense that you have His life in you because He is in you.
Again you have it wrong. I have life. I am alive eternally. I am identified inseparably with that life. Sin in the flesh is external as we see in Romans 7. As a new creature in Christ, I'm not identified with sin in the flesh but rather one called to overcome it. Hence, I am saved UNTO good works not BY them.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 12:55:12 AM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1002
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Wildbynature,
Here is a verse which lays out the truth of salvation in a nutshell:
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
This shows the total depravity of man, individual election and eternal security all in one simple statement.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 2:50:48 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: propitiated4
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I just want to say this,yes I was saved and I walked away from God and went back into my sins.But because of a praying dad I came back to God.What did I do to get saved again?I did what I did the first time,I asked Jesus to forgive me and take me back.Through the Bible it's full of IF---WE---REMAIN---IN---HIM.Why is that so hard to understand?If we don't remain in Him,what's going to us?Read your Bible people.
The word is actually, abide, not remain. If you even abide with Me in the first place, then....
I'm afraid yustme is correct -- abide DOES mean remain.
I have no idea what verse you are referring to above -- I can't find it in any of my translations.
quote:
Abide as it is in those verses is
to continue to be present
to be held, kept, continually
"Abide" in scripture, meno, means: to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for).
I'm curious, what is the difference between "remain" and "to continue to be present", anyway?
quote:
John 15:4
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me.
15:5
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.
15:6
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
15:7
"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever * you wish, and it will be done for you.
15:9
"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
15:10
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever * * you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
Every instance of "abide" and "remain" given in these verses, is translated from meno, meaning: to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for).
In fact, 50 out of 55 instances (91%) of a form of the word "abide" in the NT (KJV), are translated from meno -- and, 18 out of 31 instances (58%) of a form of the word "remain" in the NT (KJV), are translated from meno.
Given these facts, I cannot agree with your argument against "abide" meaning "remain".
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 3:44:06 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Again you have it wrong. I have life. I am alive eternally.
That is your opinion. You have yet to scripturally refute one verse I've presented in opposition to your opinion. You just keep giving me more of your opinion.
quote:
I am identified inseparably with that life.
Scripture please. Your belief that you are "inseparable" from salvation has already been refuted.
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Sin in the flesh is external as we see in Romans 7.
Verse(s) please. Such a view would contradict what Christ said about our being able to sin in our thoughts.
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As a new creature in Christ, I'm not identified with sin in the flesh but rather one called to overcome it.
I believe I've already refuted the scripture you are referring to, but please provide (again) the scripture on which you are basing the idea that we are "not identified with sin".
quote:
Hence, I am saved UNTO good works not BY them.
You are making an argument on an assumption of something that was never even implied. In fact, I agree that we are saved unto good works, not by them.
quote:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Obviously we interpret this verse differently. Please explain your point.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 3:46:55 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Wildbynature,
Here is a verse which lays out the truth of salvation in a nutshell:
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
This shows the total depravity of man, individual election and eternal security all in one simple statement.
Sorry, although I see how you could derive man's depravity from this verse, I don't see anything about "election" or OSAS. Nor would I care to base my salvation on only ONE verse of scripture -- especially this one.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 3:51:26 AM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1002
Joined: 3/25/2006
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quote:
quote:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Obviously we interpret this verse differently. Please explain your point.
This shows something deeper than just having eternal life in an external fashion as you suggest. I'm a new creature and I am eternally alive. That is why the Lord said "ye must be born again". I'm born again into eternal life and am therefore a new creation. I go from being a child of the first Adam to being a child of the second Adam.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 3:54:23 AM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1002
Joined: 3/25/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
Sorry, although I see how you could derive man's depravity from this verse, I don't see anything about "election" or OSAS. Nor would I care to base my salvation on only ONE verse of scripture -- especially this one.
Who does the Father draw who doesn't get raised up at the last day according to the verse. He says the He WILL raise one who is drawn by the Father at the last day.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 12:29:28 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3647
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Again you have it wrong. I have life. I am alive eternally.
That is your opinion. You have yet to scripturally refute one verse I've presented in opposition to your opinion. You just keep giving me more of your opinion.
quote:
I am identified inseparably with that life.
Scripture please. Your belief that you are "inseparable" from salvation has already been refuted.
Answers like yours, Wild, always amaze me. "That is your opinion" and "your belief...has already been refuted."
Are you contending that what some write here is merely opinion but what you write is absolute truth?
I have seen this issue from both sides, spending most of my time on the Arminian side, and am very glad that I have been brought to the the knowledge of the truth and to the point at which I could see the falseness, the fakery, the facade those I knew displayed -- and I displayed right along with them, in order to maintain what they believed!. Fortunately for me, those Arminian believers I still see are such that they know they are not perfect and are striving toward living better lives.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 1:53:19 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1626
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Think about it . . . if we sin it is because we do not believe that Christ is of far more value than the sin we commit. If unbelief causes Christ to leave us then none of us would be worthy of Christ abiding in us for a single day; for we all sin in one form or another daily.
Please provide the scripture that teaches us that we are worthy of Christ abiding in us.
No man is worthy in and of himself; it is Christ Jesus that makes the genuine believer worthy in God’s eyes. What do I mean by worthy? The righteousness of God imputed to the believers account and imparted into his very being by the Holy Spirit residing in him.
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21 NASB95)
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:9-10 NASB95)
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quote:
We sin by thinking unworthy thoughts and the bottom line of those thoughts is that we do not believe that Christ is of ultimate supreme value; we think that we can be satisfied outside of Christ.
Please provide the scripture that teaches us that sin is "thinking unworthy thoughts".
I didn’t say “sin is thinking unworthy thoughts” but “we sin by thinking unworthy thoughts.”
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5 NASB)
“Evil” is sin.
quote:
I don't see how the "bottom line" of "unworthy thoughts" is unbelief. Please explain. How do "unworthy thoughts" lead us to "think that we can be satisfied outside of Christ"? Please explain.
I did not say that unworthy thoughts lead us to think we can be satisfied outside of Christ, but that we think unworthy thoughts because we are seeking satisfaction outside of Christ.
Thoughts that exalt self over God are fruit of unbelief. If I trusted God and His word I would never think thoughts that would degrade others, that showed contempt to others or that were unloving to others in any way. If I believed God perfectly I would love Him with all of my mind and would not covet anything or desire anything that would not give glory to Him. If I believed God with no defect in my trust, my thoughts would be loving with absolutely no dark thoughts and desires.
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In both the OT and the NT, the Lord admonishes His creation to humble themselves before Him. For example -- Christ said:
Matthew 18:4, "Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
For me, recognizing my unworthiness doesn't lead me to look for satisfaction outside of Christ. Rather, I am led to humble myself before my merciful God and to praise His name -- after all, who am I that He should come here to offer Himself as a sacrifice for me? Again, I didn’t say anything about recognizing my unworthiness would lead me to look for satisfaction outside of Christ. It is just the opposite. My desire for satisfaction outside of Christ shows that I am unworthy of God; this shows that I am unrighteous before God.
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quote:
Thank God that in spite of the unbelief that is seen in my attitudes, my moods, my behavior, etc., God is at work in me, has promised to complete the work He has begun and is well able to keep me from falling.
First, anyone who displays unbelief in their "attitudes, moods, behavior, etc.", should be advised to examine themselves. Unbelief does not produce fruit. Those found not producing fruit will not be recognized as being part of the vine.
I am sure that if each of us were to truly examine ourselves daily, would find that we show the fruit of unbelief. Unloving acts, prideful thoughts and actions, trying to prove self worth, strife, anger, etc. all show that our minds are not completely renewed to the fact of our regenerate state and right standing before God. Genuine believers have been given new hearts (hearts that love God and want to obey Him), but still live in corruptible bodies, have unrenewed minds, live in the sinful world of temptations and are in constant spiritual warfare. Thank God that even when we show fruit of unbelief we are still born again and God is still working within us both to will and do that which pleases Him – He gives us the desire to please Him.
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Though the HS is in you, scripture teaches that the HS can be quenched. As long as you do NOT quench the HS, God (through the HS) will finish the work He has begun in you.
I read in 1 Thes 5:19 that we are not to quench the Holy Spirit, but fail to see from Scripture that God’s promise to complete that which He has begun can be quenched. He has given the genuine believer a new heart that relishes God, He has written the law of God in his heart and is at work within the genuine believer both to will and do that which pleases God.
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Though He is ABLE to keep you from falling, you must want to be kept from falling. Just as, though He is ABLE to save you, you must want to be saved -- you do that by putting your trust (faith) in Him. He makes the offer, but we must accept.
Good point! He is ABLE to keep you from falling because he has placed within you the desire to keep from falling. Just as He is ABLE to save you, He has placed within you a desire to want to be saved – you show that by putting your trust (faith) in Him. He makes the offer and reveals the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Once we see Christ for whom He is, we relish Him and are irresistibly drawn towards Him – we see the ultimate value and beauty of Christ and desire Him above all things.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 11:38:05 PM
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propitiated4
Posts: 615
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: propitiated4
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I just want to say this,yes I was saved and I walked away from God and went back into my sins.But because of a praying dad I came back to God.What did I do to get saved again?I did what I did the first time,I asked Jesus to forgive me and take me back.Through the Bible it's full of IF---WE---REMAIN---IN---HIM.Why is that so hard to understand?If we don't remain in Him,what's going to us?Read your Bible people.
The word is actually, abide, not remain. If you even abide with Me in the first place, then....
I'm afraid yustme is correct -- abide DOES mean remain.
I have no idea what verse you are referring to above -- I can't find it in any of my translations.
quote:
Abide as it is in those verses is
to continue to be present
to be held, kept, continually
"Abide" in scripture, meno, means: to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for).
I'm curious, what is the difference between "remain" and "to continue to be present", anyway?
quote:
John 15:4
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me.
15:5
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.
15:6
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
15:7
"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever * you wish, and it will be done for you.
15:9
"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
15:10
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever * * you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
Every instance of "abide" and "remain" given in these verses, is translated from meno, meaning: to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for).
In fact, 50 out of 55 instances (91%) of a form of the word "abide" in the NT (KJV), are translated from meno -- and, 18 out of 31 instances (58%) of a form of the word "remain" in the NT (KJV), are translated from meno.
Given these facts, I cannot agree with your argument against "abide" meaning "remain".
John 10:28 "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
If the branches are burned, can you not get your salvation back once you lose it?
Or from Hebrews 6:6, if you can lose your salvation, it seems you can never get it back according to that verse. Where's the hope of Christ, in that?
I will agree abide does mean remain, but now how you would define remain. Since we did not choose God but He chose us, we don't have the sovereignty to give up our salvation, just like we didn't have the sovereignty to give ourselves that salvation. According to the Word we cannot remain in the first place apart from God's grace. For without Him we can do NOTHING, including abiding/remaining in Him.
< Message edited by propitiated4 -- 10/20/2007 11:44:28 PM >
_____________________________
Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2007 11:57:01 PM
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propitiated4
Posts: 615
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Good point! He is ABLE to keep you from falling because he has placed within you the desire to keep from falling. Just as He is ABLE to save you, He has placed within you a desire to want to be saved – you show that by putting your trust (faith) in Him. He makes the offer and reveals the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Once we see Christ for whom He is, we relish Him and are irresistibly drawn towards Him – we see the ultimate value and beauty of Christ and desire Him above all things.
Blessings,
SH
Amen!
_____________________________
Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2007 4:25:56 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
Rom 8:38-39, "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." One of the most potent passages which completely reassures true believers that there is absolutely nothing which can separate us from Christ - nothing.
Our death cannot, not even our life with all its imperfections and trials can - perfect assurance. God is so merciful to give us this knowledge of His everlasting love for His children.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2007 5:33:48 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1626
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
My ability to abide is not the basis of assurance, but God's work of placing me in Christ and receiving all the benefits that involves.
I'm sorry if I misunderstand you, and I hope I do, ... because this really sounds like a perversion of God's grace.
Clearly, our "ability" is not the basis of assurance, but our "abiding" is. There is much scripture to discredit the belief that abiding does not assure us of salvation.
If our abiding is the assurance of our salvation then our ability to abide is the crux and basis of our salvation. On the other hand, if God’s work in and through the Lord Jesus Christ is the assurance of our salvation, then His ability is the crux and basis for all boasting.
Our willingness to abide is the fruit of God’s work in us, not the cause. Thus, God’s work is the basis of our assurance not our ability to abide.
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quote:
I boast in the Lord, not in my abiding.
Statements such as this are perplexing to me, as I can't see where they come from or the reason for them. Who claims to be boasting in their abiding?
It is perplexing to me that it is perplexing to you. I made this statement with the assumption that most would respond with an Amen. Many don’t “claim” to be boasting in their abiding, but put such emphasis upon it that it is hard to think otherwise.
Blessings to you,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2007 12:40:23 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
quote:
quote:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Obviously we interpret this verse differently. Please explain your point.
This shows something deeper than just having eternal life in an external fashion as you suggest.
I have never suggested or implied that eternal life is something external. It is in Christ, so it is in the believer, but the believer does NOT inherit eternal life until the day of salvation.
quote:
I'm a new creature and I am eternally alive. That is why the Lord said "ye must be born again". I'm born again into eternal life and am therefore a new creation.
A "new" creation translated from kainos, meaning: new; fresh; with respect to age.
Had Paul meant we were changed or different, he would have said allassō, meaning: to make different: change.
Clearly, in being in Christ, being born by the Spirit, we are said to be justified. This gives us a FRESH start. We don't change from corruptible to incorruptible until He comes again -- at which time we receive our inheritance of eternal life.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2007 12:43:16 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
Sorry, although I see how you could derive man's depravity from this verse, I don't see anything about "election" or OSAS. Nor would I care to base my salvation on only ONE verse of scripture -- especially this one.
Who does the Father draw who doesn't get raised up at the last day according to the verse.
All men are drawn, but only those who's attraction has not faded will be raised.
John 12:32, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
First, we need to understand what "draw" means. Two words for "draw" are found in the NT, helkuō and surō. Surō, meaning: to trail; drag; draw; hale -- is NEVER used of Christ's attraction of men.
The word "draw", helkuō, in this verse, means: to drag, draw, pull in. To get further meaning, we look at the use of the word helkuō in the NT. When you do, you see that the "drawing" is not like one of force, but is a gracious allurement. When we look to Christ's finished work on the cross, we are drawn by His love for us but we willingly go to Him. We are not drawn by a force that makes us stay -- it is out of our willingness that we choose to either stay with Him or not.
John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
In that same passage, Christ previously said:
John 6:40, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
We must be seeing (attracted) and believing. A constant states of beign -- not a one time state.
quote:
He says the He WILL raise one who is drawn by the Father at the last day.
And He WILL raise up the one that is drawn. But, to understand what is being said, we must consider the whole counsel of God, and NOT ONE VERSE. Who is being drawn and who WILL be raised?
Will all people who were drawn to Him be raised? No.
Luke 2:34, "Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against".
We can see that though Christ draws "all people" to Him, and He is destined to "raise many", but many will reject Him. Not all who are drawn will be raised. The attraction to Christ must ABIDE in us in order for us to be raised.
We must constantly be looking to Him.
Heb 12:2, "looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God"
Many are called, but few are chosen. God desires that ALL men be saved, but we know not ALL will be.
Luke 8:13, "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2007 12:45:10 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Are you contending that what some write here is merely opinion but what you write is absolute truth?
Absolutely not, Covaan -- and, I think you know that.
When something is stated without scripture to back it up, it is merely opinion. We all have offered our opinions. What I write NOW -- this is my opinion. But, scripture is truth.
Refutation is presenting scripture to demonstrate the falseness or error of one's opinion.
If an opinion can be scripturally refuted, the scripture presented in opposition to the opinion must then be refuted. If it cannot be, then truth is revealed.
Hence, in seeking truth, I've repeatedly asked Ross to refute the scripture I've presented in opposition to his opinion. He has not done this. Until he does, it remains his opinion -- and, the scripture presented against the opinion as truth.
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I have seen this issue from both sides, spending most of my time on the Arminian side, and am very glad that I have been brought to the the knowledge of the truth and to the point at which I could see the falseness, the fakery, the facade those I knew displayed -- and I displayed right along with them, in order to maintain what they believed!. Fortunately for me, those Arminian believers I still see are such that they know they are not perfect and are striving toward living better lives.
Well, I am neither a Calvinist or an Arminian -- I am a born-again, Spirit filled Christian. I have never considered myself to be perfect, and that is why I never take God's grace for granted.
I was once a believer in OSAS (not the doctrine, but the acronym), not being aware of what the doctrine states as I was in my Christian infancy. Having matured in faith, I can no longer believe the lies of the doctrine of OSAS and cannot dismiss the danger it poses to my brethren. I am not saying that ALL who believe OSAS are in danger -- as I find many don't understand the doctrine, they just believe that their salvation is secure because they are believing. I agree with that -- I believe I am secure because I am believing. However, what divides us is the acronym "OSAS".
The reason this debate seems eternal, is because there is such a fine line between most of us.
I believe scripture teaches the possibility of a believer turning back to unbelief which then makes void the promise of salvation which is only for those who are believing. If scripture provides for it and says it possible, why can't some believe the possibility exists. That is NOT to say it WILL happen to them, but that it can happen. Therefore, I will continually admonish my brethren to keep the faith.
Luke 18:8, "Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"
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"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2007 1:29:07 PM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1002
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quote:
I agree with that -- I believe I am secure because I AM BELIEVING
I know whom I HAVE BELIEVED and am persuaded that HE IS ABLE to keep that which I HAVE COMMITTED unto Him against that day.
See the difference?
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2007 1:35:15 PM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1002
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quote:
I've repeatedly asked Ross to refute the scripture I've presented in opposition to his opinion. He has not done this. Until he does, it remains his opinion -- and, the scripture presented against the opinion as truth.
I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I have presented scripture to support my position which you twist into something different. For example when I quote where scripture says that one who believes HAS eternal life, you say it means only that He has Christ in him not that He is eternally alive as the scripture clearly implies. In support I quoted scripture that says that a believer is a new creature which shows that having eternal life is part of his very being not simply something which goes along with him. I don't know what it would take to convince you that you are the one who merely holds an opinion which is not supported by scripture.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2007 9:06:21 PM
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propitiated4
Posts: 615
Joined: 10/1/2007
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Wildbynature,
still waiting on an answer to my question below
quote:
John 10:28 "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
If the branches are burned, can you not get your salvation back once you lose it?
Or from Hebrews 6:6, if you can lose your salvation, it seems you can never get it back according to that verse. Where's the hope of Christ, in that?
I will agree abide does mean remain, but not how you would define remain. Since we did not choose God but He chose us, we don't have the sovereignty to give up our salvation, just like we didn't have the sovereignty to give ourselves that salvation. According to the Word we cannot remain in the first place apart from God's grace. For without Him we can do NOTHING, including abiding/remaining in Him.
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Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2007 1:06:10 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: propitiated4
Wildbynature,
still waiting on an answer to my question below
I beg your patience. Though you are responding to me, I am responding to at least 4 posters on this thread alone, and find that rushing a response is of no edification to anyone.
I will respond as time allows.
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"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2007 11:59:39 AM
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propitiated4
Posts: 615
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: propitiated4
Wildbynature,
still waiting on an answer to my question below
I beg your patience. Though you are responding to me, I am responding to at least 4 posters on this thread alone, and find that rushing a response is of no edification to anyone.
I will respond as time allows.
Sorry not trying to rush you, just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my question. I beg your forgiveness if it seemed I was rushing you.
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Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2007 3:37:40 PM
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yustme
Posts: 379
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In reading the posts,everyone is in agreeance that God is able to keep us from us from "falling from Grace".No argument there.BUT...HE W..O..N..T FORCE US TO STAY IN HIS GRACE.I was in the Nazarene's for 30 yrs,because there was no churches nearby,my husband and I went to a Baptist church.I know the scripture's the Nazarene's use to prove there Doctrine.But I also know the scripture's the Baptist use to prove there Doctrine.I have studied both lists and I can tell you this,they don't pay attention to the wording of the scriptures(the Baptists that is).Example:No man can pluck us out of His hand.That's true,no man can.Yealding to sin can and does if the sin is not repented.I did a lot of learning listening to there teaching and I came to realize why people believe that way.I've seen so many who believed that way live contrary to the Word of God but because of that teaching they believed they were just fine.My God help us.If you want to believe that Doctrine then for your own sake,LIVE IT.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2007 3:58:16 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
If unbelief causes Christ to leave us then none of us would be worthy of Christ abiding in us for a single day; for we all sin in one form or another daily.
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ORIGINAL: WildByNature
Please provide the scripture that teaches us that we are worthy of Christ abiding in us.
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
No man is worthy in and of himself; it is Christ Jesus that makes the genuine believer worthy in God’s eyes.
So you admit we are unworthy for Christ to abide in us at all. Yet we are sinners. When we sin, we must repent of that sin. There is a difference in scripture between a believer who occassionally sins and repents, and one who claims to be a believer yet lives a life of sin. It is the unrepentant sin/life in sin that is "unbelief". Unbelief quenches (puts out) the Spirit.
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What do I mean by worthy? The righteousness of God imputed to the believers account and imparted into his very being by the Holy Spirit residing in him.
First, it doesn't matter how you personally define "worthy", what matters is the true definition of the word. To be "worthy"is to be acceptable, deserving. We are NOT worthy to possess Christ's righteousness. To claim we become righteous because the HS dwells in believers, is to insult God's grace.
Please see my post #3144 regarding imputed righteousness. "Imputed" does NOT mean "imparted" (given). The HS is not the righteousness of Christ -- as even Reformed Theoloogian Arthur Pink, who contends for OSAS, would agree: "Our title to the glory lies solely in the righteousness of Christ; our personal fitness for it lies in the Holy Spirit's regenerating of us." He believes that our becoming righteous is the work of the HS in us, not just the HS residing in us.
If you look at the work of the HS, as set forth in John 16, you will see that He is given to us for the purpose of: conviction of sin, conviction of righteousness, conviction of judgment; to guide us into truth and to glorify Christ.
John 16:7-15, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you"
The HS convicts us of unrighteousness, He is not righteousness Himself.
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He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21 NASB95)
We do not become “righteous men,” but men who have “righteousness” -- not literally, but in God's eyes.
In the Greek, ginomai is a verb, meaning: MAY-BE-BECOMING. It is not that we "become" righteous, but that by the work of the HS's convicting us, we "may become" righteous.
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