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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2006 4:34:30 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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SovereignISHe,
quote:
Where is said the Holy Spirit gives every man the ability? That doesn't jive with the following... Never stated that the Holy Spirit gives the ability. All men have the ability because of Christ's redemptive work. The Holy Spirit is God's agent in the world calling all men to repentance. Calling all to believe. Both Jew and the Greek. But in times past, the Jew wanted signs, the Greeks logic and reason. God does not call this way. He calls through faith.
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Where is written that God's takes risks? The very idea that God takes *risks* tends to grate against his nature... There are consequences for God in regards to His action or inaction? Who holds God accountable? I don't want to spend a dissertation here, but obviously you do not understand the thelogy of the creation. The bottom line is that God created a creature with a free will. That also does not mean that God is out of control. We are simply limiting the discussion to liberty and free will, not the the providence of God, nor even to his foreknowledge and omniscience.
You seem to think these are all one and the same. But that is a whole different discussion. You also alude to some of these factors later dealing with the clay and potter and the hardening of Pharoah etc. These have nothing to do with the will of man.
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Where is written that all men are able... Christ redeemed the world. Reconciled the world back to God. Freed mankind from the bondage of the judgement of Adam. God calls all men to repentance. He desires that all men be saved, but man is the determining factor whether he believes or not. Both the devil and the Holy Spirit ply man's will and desire. Man is the one in control of his eternal destiny. God created man for it to be so.
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Why? Becauce that doesn't seem fair to you? Was it incongruous that God chose just the Jews to be His people? Why Peter and not someone else? Why Judas? Oh wait... Don't answer that... :P Not at all. The Bible is quite clear that Christ justified all men to God. Why would God then negate some of the Work of Christ on the Cross. Choosing Jews to be the favored nation in which the SEED would come is his providence. Gentiles were saved all through the OT. That individuals are chosen for tasks has nothing to do with the will of man. All you are seeing is the evidence of the Providence and foreknowledge of God. Again a whole different discourse.
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I don't recall ever having the choice Adam had... That seems to be quite obvious by your remarks. It has been throughout the entire Bible, OT and NT, man is saved through faith. Man is charged with exercising the faith which he possesess and then is also charged in keeping that faith and belief. It has always been a synergistic, mutual, cooperative relationship, man with God. It is the very purpose of our existance and creation being in His Image.
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Where is everyone said to have the gift of salvation (eternal life)? And the gift isn't simply some reprieve from the fall... The gift is eternal LIFE, not damnation...
Without comment I will post a host of text that all clearly give mankind eternal life. Also cooborating texts that support the obvious ones.
Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; Eph 1:10; John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32
Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16. Rom 11:32.
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You spoke of living a certain way unto salvaiton(In other words, salvation via works...) Yet on the crosses next to Christ were two thieves receiving their just reward yet one was going to hell and one to heaven... The one thief didn't recieve salvation for living a certain way.... The one had faith. Saved through his faith. We are saved through faith. Read all of James carefully. It is the manual of Christian living. Might read the beatitudes as well. The NT 10 commandments, even the OT commandments. Christ fulfilled the law, but he also established it. Rom 3:31.
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You tell me since you have man maintaining what God had to bring back from dead in the first place.... Quite the contrary as it is quite obvious later in your posts that you do not distinquish between physical life and spiritual life. Did you read I Cor 15, especially vs 46. It tells you the order of events. Salvation occurs in the same order as the fall.
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The salvation spoken in the bible is regarding "eternal life" with God forever... Those who are not save are dead in the regarding the Spirit and are never really alive aside from breathing air... Actually you are correct, even though you don't mean it. Those in Hell will also live with God forever. Man is ever a created creature. He receives life from God. Thus to exist, alive in Hell, one must have the presence of God.
However, in another sense you are also correct. The ultimate purpose of God's redemption salvation is to give to every soul the free choice to be saved IN HIM. Thus the Bible for the most part always looks to the end, the beleivers end.
But you words of dead in spirit and only alive as in breathing, again shows your misunderstanding of the real difference here between what could be called physical salvation and spiritual salvation. Though that is not quite accurate, but it may help you to see a difference more clearly.
But, the unbeleiver is already spiritually dead, separated from Christ, is experiencing the second death which is a spiritual death meant in eternity. It really is the same for the believer, when it says that when we believe we have eternal life. Both have eternal life, they possess it already, but in both cases it is not final. Each is capable of moving into the other group during their life-times. It is at the moment of death that both will become final and eternal abode is set.
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Given you hold the fall as being a mistake I don't see how you can claim that the salvation of our souls was the original created purpose of man's existence since you seem to say that the God reacted to Adam... Hence it wasn't part of God's plan, but simply a reaction to His creation running amok... The salvation of mankind, the physical is what Christ accomplished on the cross. Freedom from the Adamic Curse, which is death which caused us to sin, thus separating us spirituall from God, or prevented the communion. The communion that Adam had with God, the created purpose of man's existance, which we now have because of Christ's redemptive work. The saving of our souls is what it is called now. The spiritual saving of mankind that was lost because of the fall. It was not the fall.
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If that's really the case what part of the Garden do you live in? Have you walked and talked with God like Adam did today? yes, I have, I also dwell in a community of believers, I believe in the communion of the Saints. We are all participants IN Christ, IN His Body, both here and in Heaven. We are ONE.
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So salvation is in the hands of man, not God... It ALL depend on man? Doesn't that make man in control? Which part of salvation are you actually referring to here. Christ's work on the Cross or the response of man. One is all God, the other has always been a synergistic, cooperative, union and communion with God. In which we are free to be or not to be.
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The ability to accept is a gift since man apart from God's grace cannot understand things of the spirit... Time and time again you place man on equal footing with God... I know, it was all Gods Grace and mercy that He saved all of mankind from destruction, from death. Rom 11:32.
As in Adam, so in Christ. The reason and purpose of the Incarnation. All made possible by the Resurrection. The key to the whole plan of salvation. I Cor 15.
Why is man having a free will, created to be so, being an equal with God?
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You can't have it both ways... If you say God is doing it all how can man's willingness not be part of the all... Especially when you consider that man has to be brought to life spiritually to be made willing... I know I can't and I don't. That is because you see physical as spiritual. They are two distinct and separate issues.
Part of Christ's work made man alive physically, mortal to immortal. Without life, man's relationship to God spiritual would have no eternal quality. Man would eventually die, which is permanent separation of body and soul. There is no eternity whatsoever. Spirit life or renewal come after we believe, repent and are baptised, when we are spiritually regenerated. We enter into that union and communion. Wholly different thing.
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Yes He does...
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. Not speaking of will but of God's providence. God works in this world to mold, to sway, to direct paths, but He does not do so against man's will. You will and desire is changed and directed every day. Many times you can force your will and desire. You can will over some pretty strong forces.
Let us take a very simple one. hunger. We eat to stay alive. The body sends signals to the brain to tell us to eat. However, due to circumstances you can thwart that desire for a time. If you even have a very strong desire for something else, like a starvation crusade, you can actually die and thus your desire of one thing can override even the will and desire to live.
Another. You may desire or will to do something, but a circumstance occurs in your life that changes your mind. You still were free to excercise your will. It was influences and forces that prompted you to change.
You have confused providence of God and God directing as being opposite or in opposition to the will of man. They are not exclusive.
This goes to the concept of Pharaoh. Pharaoh had already hardened his heart. Read the whole story. God simply locked his will for a time because here you see another of God's forenowledge at work. God already knew that Pharaoh would not change His heart.
Judas is another example of Gods foreknowledge being exposed in Scripture.
Picking Nathanial as a disciple is another. Read what Jesus says to Him. How could any man say that, unless He KNEW beforehand.
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If that's really the case why does God have to change man's nature in order for man to love, obey and serve Him? He actually does not. He had relationships with man all through the OT. But the fact is, God knew, as He had promised Adam, that Christ would someday come to deliever man from the fall. That what Adam did, would be corrected.
But on the other hand, If Christ had not come, then that relationship with man would have ended in death. Body and soul permanently separated and obviously no union with God. Man was created to be immortal. Living and sharing with God for an eternity. Thus mankind needed to be restored to life, immortality, have an eternal quality in order that God could even begin to have a relationship with man in this life that would extend into eternity.
Thus Christ restored mankind, justified mankind to God in order that man could fulfill his created destiny of creation, to live and be with God forever.
That is why all men, mankind needed to be saved from the fall. If God had been particular, saved only some, permitted the rest to be destroyed through Adam, God would be a God respector of persons, unmerciful, unjust, and worst, desire to destroy creatures created in His own Image.
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When did God stop being the Potter and the clay the clay? Read my above remark again, then go back and reread Chapters 9-11 of Romans where the summary of that whole potter and clay thing is Rom 11:32. All were consigned to death through Adam so that all could be saved through Christ. As in Adam, so in Christ. That is why He is callled the Second Adam, after all.
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How evil of an example to want? Evil has nothing to do with it. You seemingly have this concept that man is a toy of God, can be manipulated, his will taken away, thus all that evil you thing a man does, is really from God. If you deny man's will, it of necessity makes God responsible for evil in this world. Then God become very unjust as well. Judging man for what God is controlling and directing in each man's life.
Your theology has a lot of holes and inconsistancies in it, for the perspective of scripture.
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It doesn't work... The gift of salvaiton(eternal life) doesn't expire like a truck. I followed the analogy enough to see it fails... The analogy didn't fail. It dealt with faith, not eternal life. Eternal life is not in question. Only the place of eternal life.
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The concept of eternal life in the bible is of salvation not simply mankind being a immortal being...
The bible is clear on that distinction... yes, the context is always the guide. Your two examples show this.The use of the word believers puts it into eternal life with Christ. All those texts above speak the opposite, The context is all about mankind receiving eternal life. Redeemed, justified, reconciled, made righteous to God. It means to be put into a correct relationship.
John 3:16 is the best example. Take out the word believes, it would just as well apply to every human being.
Then take two verses in succession where the distinction is made between the salvation of mankind and believers.
John 6:39 mankind, vs 40 believers. Both have eternal life, the phrase. life everlasting is also used in some translations. The distinction is those that believe.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2006 6:05:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
quote:
You spoke of living a certain way unto salvaiton(In other words, salvation via works...) Yet on the crosses next to Christ were two thieves receiving their just reward yet one was going to hell and one to heaven... The one thief didn't recieve salvation for living a certain way....
The one had faith.
You posted prior:
Fortunately doctrine or a clear understanding of it will not save you. Believe and right living, living IN Christ is what will save you. It is all in the living, not the knowing. Knowing and not acting on that knowledge is the same as a dead faith, faith without works is dead and unprofitable and not a saving faith.
It wasn't right living that put the either thief on the crosses next to Christ...
quote:
Saved through his faith.
Just his faith? What were the works of the thief who was granted Paradise?
John
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2006 6:22:15 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
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SovereignIsHe,
quote:
It wasn't right living that put the either thief on the crosses next to Christ... It was faith when on the cross and repentance based on what he told the other thief that riled against Christ.
If what we do before faith precludes faith, then Paul is in hell. He is a murderer. So is David. And a lot more saints who never made it. Including most of the early saints, since they were pagens before faith. Ignatius, Polycarp, Clements etc, etc, etc.
quote:
Just his faith? What were the works of the thief who was granted Paradise? Repentance.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 3:37:53 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cassian
SovereignIsHe,
quote:
It wasn't right living that put the either thief on the crosses next to Christ... It was faith when on the cross and repentance based on what he told the other thief that riled against Christ.
If what we do before faith precludes faith, then Paul is in hell. He is a murderer. So is David. And a lot more saints who never made it. Including most of the early saints, since they were pagens before faith. Ignatius, Polycarp, Clements etc, etc, etc.
quote:
Just his faith? What were the works of the thief who was granted Paradise? Repentance.
So 30 seconds of "right living" is enough?
Again... You posted the following...
Fortunately doctrine or a clear understanding of it will not save you. Believe and right living, living IN Christ is what will save you. It is all in the living, not the knowing. Knowing and not acting on that knowledge is the same as a dead faith, faith without works is dead and unprofitable and not a saving faith.
John
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 4:15:37 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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SovereignIsHe,
quote:
So 30 seconds of "right living" is enough? It could even be less probably, who really knows. Faith marked by repentance is all that is necessary to reconcile oneself to God. The Thief just missed out on the living of that Life here on earth being IN Christ.
Maybe you aught to read the teaching of the first and last, Matt 20:1-20.
quote:
Again... You posted the following...
Fortunately doctrine or a clear understanding of it will not save you. Believe and right living, living IN Christ is what will save you. It is all in the living, not the knowing. Knowing and not acting on that knowledge is the same as a dead faith, faith without works is dead and unprofitable and not a saving faith. OK, what do you not understand? I have explained it twice now.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 4:40:49 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
So 30 seconds of "right living" is enough?
Cassian:
Believe and right living, living IN Christ is what will save you. It is all in the living, not the knowing
Cassian believes that salvation is by faith plus works, in spite of Paul's very clear words in Rom 4:4,5, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" as well as Eph 2:8,9, "for by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
To clarify, all the commands in Scripture for "living right" are TO believers, NOT in order to become believers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 5:26:34 PM
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facedown
Posts: 907
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quote:
so the answer is no.
no paradoxes in our faith...
i wonder how many passages that throws out of the Bible?
should we look at passages that present the paradox of our faith?
i only ask so, because you believe it impossible to believe in one way, and yet still believe in another.
For instance: do you believe God is Transcendent? If yes, and you don't believe in the plurality of such, then you can't believe in the Immanent God. You force division through your "either - or", even as you refuse another who might say "both - and".
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 6:09:25 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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FreeGrace,
quote:
Cassian believes that salvation is by faith plus works, Quite the contrary. I have never stated it as such. It is your total misunderstanding of what the Bible is actually teaching.
First, we are justified BY faith. We are saved THORUGH FAITH. There is never a matter of faith plus works. That must only exist in your theology, not the Bible.
quote:
in spite of Paul's very clear words in Rom 4:4,5, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" as well as Eph 2:8,9, "for by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
As I have stated many time before and will continue to do so. These texts do not even address the aspect of salvation to which this whole topic is being addressed.
These texts refers to the Work of Christ on the Cross who fulfulled the law. The law is not ever going to save mankind. Mankind could never work so hard and so good that he could both overcome death and sin. An impossibility. That is why it states that "but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly. His faith is reckoned as reconcilement, as being made right, as being put into a correct relationship. Faith does what God did for us, redeeme, justified, reconciled mankind to God.
HOWEVER, when it comes to acceptance, believing, it is faith that justifies and we have just simply acquired all that work that Christ did on the Cross. But that is only justification. It merely puts a person into the fold of being a believer. Now comes the saving of our souls. This is done THROUGH FAITH. Have you ever read I Pet 1:5. We are not saved by faith. It is through faith. There is action there, It is all in the living. Living IN Christ.(remaining IN Christ)
quote:
To clarify, all the commands in Scripture for "living right" are TO believers, NOT in order to become believers. Now, that is a very amazing statement. To say that and not even underestand your entire comment above it, it totally beyond me.
BUT, it is also to remain believers. It is THROUGH FAITH. Faith is continuous. If we no longer have faith, if we become faithless, then we no longer are being saved.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 6:29:13 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Cassian believes that salvation is by faith plus works, in spite of Paul's very clear words in Rom 4:4,5, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" as well as Eph 2:8,9, "for by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." Cassian can clarify it more, but I believe you have misunderstood what he has said.
He believes we were saved from death by Christ about 2000 years ago. This is not by our works, but Christ's. Non of us had any part of it. It's a done deal. It's not something we can gain or lose.
So now the first death has no power over us. It makes no difference whether you believe it or not, the first death has no power over you. This is evident because in the end ALL will rise, including the unbelievers.
So by Christ defeating death, He has given ALL mankind the ability to draw closer to God. And this is where the Gospel comes in. Christ defeated death, so now we can live freely. But more specifically to live a lifestyle modeled after Christ.
It is like messengers travelling all over Iraq announcing "Saddam has been defeated, we no longer need to live in fear". It is also understood that it doesn't matter if they believe it or not, Saddam has no power over anyone. ALL has been saved from Saddam whether they accept the message or not.
But at the same time we are told to live a lifestyle that will NOT again bring us back to another death. The second death.
The problem is that some see it as works, while others sees it as becoming more like Christ. One is burdensome and the other is a joy. It's "is the glass half empty or half full?".
To us, the works is not burdensome, but joyful, because we become more like Christ each day. I believe that is a wonderful thing.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 6:31:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
It could even be less probably, who really knows. Faith marked by repentance is all that is necessary to reconcile oneself to God. The Thief just missed out on the living of that Life here on earth being IN Christ.
Maybe you aught to read the teaching of the first and last, Matt 20:1-20.
I'm not sure Matt 20:1-20 covers your floating concept of "right living"... From the context you posted and what you posted prior your view of things would have both thieves in hell...
John
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 6:34:26 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
no paradoxes in our faith... Well, at least not with mine.
quote:
i wonder how many passages that throws out of the Bible? You probably have a corrupted bible.
quote:
should we look at passages that present the paradox of our faith? See my previous reply.
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i only ask so, because you believe it impossible to believe in one way, and yet still believe in another. You mean something that is contradictory? No.
quote:
For instance: do you believe God is Transcendent? If yes, and you don't believe in the plurality of such, then you can't believe in the Immanent God. You force division through your "either - or", even as you refuse another who might say "both - and". I think you're confused.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 7:50:21 PM
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J.Scott
Posts: 8
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Cassian believes that salvation is by faith plus works, in spite of Paul's very clear words in Rom 4:4,5, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" as well as Eph 2:8,9, "for by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." Cassian can clarify it more, but I believe you have misunderstood what he has said.
He believes we were saved from death by Christ about 2000 years ago. This is not by our works, but Christ's. Non of us had any part of it. It's a done deal. It's not something we can gain or lose.
So now the first death has no power over us. It makes no difference whether you believe it or not, the first death has no power over you. This is evident because in the end ALL will rise, including the unbelievers.
So by Christ defeating death, He has given ALL mankind the ability to draw closer to God. And this is where the Gospel comes in. Christ defeated death, so now we can live freely. But more specifically to live a lifestyle modeled after Christ.
It is like messengers travelling all over Iraq announcing "Saddam has been defeated, we no longer need to live in fear". It is also understood that it doesn't matter if they believe it or not, Saddam has no power over anyone. ALL has been saved from Saddam whether they accept the message or not.
But at the same time we are told to live a lifestyle that will NOT again bring us back to another death. The second death.
The problem is that some see it as works, while others sees it as becoming more like Christ. One is burdensome and the other is a joy. It's "is the glass half empty or half full?".
To us, the works is not burdensome, but joyful, because we become more like Christ each day. I believe that is a wonderful thing.
I'm confused...
So are you saying that through His crucifixion Christ saved "all" from only physical death or "all" from physical and spiritual death?
If it is solely the physical death His death is pointless. If it is the other the Gospel is pointless.
Please clarify your thought process for me on what you are teaching Christ's death and ressurrection accomplished.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 8:09:37 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cassian
BUT, it is also to remain believers. It is THROUGH FAITH. Faith is continuous. If we no longer have faith, if we become faithless, then we no longer are being saved.
Cassian, for the sake of the readers of this thread who probably aren't familiar with our prior interactions, I will mention that King Saul "died for his trespass...against the Lord...Therefore He(the Lord) killed him", according to 1 Chron 10:13,14. Please note, readers. I am QUOTING what my Bible says, I am not "interpreting" as Cassian has charged. Please look up the passage for yourselves to prove it.
Now, turn to 1 Sam 28, the passage referred to in 1 Chron 10:13. King Saul was "afraid and his heart trembled greatly" in v.5 because of the Philistine army. He tried to inquire of the Lord in v.6, but the Lord "did not answer him". Out of desperation Saul seeks a medium in v.7. In v.11 Saul asks the medium to "bring up Samuel for me". Now note what the Bible says in v.12 "When the woman SAW Samuel, she cried out (freaked out!). Let me repeat for Cassian, THE BIBLE SAYS THE WOMAN SAW SAMUEL. That is not MY interpretation, it is exactly what the Bible says. IOW, I'm quoting the Bible, NOT interpreting it. Note v.15-19 is actually Samuel speaking to Saul, as it begins with "Then Sanuel said to Saul..."
The key is v.19 where Samuel (who has previously died) tells Saul that on the next day Saul and his sons will join Samuel (in paradise, where Samuel resided). Note the quote, "Therefore tomorrow you and your sons WILL BE WITH ME".
What's the point of all this? King Saul died quite dishonorably, yet he ended up the same place as Samuel. This is what eternal security is all about. Cassian will probably charge (again) that "no one in Western Christianity has ever taught that about Saul". But, so what? When Scripture makes very plain and clear statements, we are faced with either accepting it or rejecting it.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 8:13:23 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
It is like messengers travelling all over Iraq announcing "Saddam has been defeated, we no longer need to live in fear". It is also understood that it doesn't matter if they believe it or not, Saddam has no power over anyone. ALL has been saved from Saddam whether they accept the message or not.
WQ, is sounds as though you are a universalist from your example, in that ALL are saved by Christ's death, whether they believe or not. The truth is we are saved by believing in Christ for eternal life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 8:24:13 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: J.Scott
I'm confused...
So are you saying that through His crucifixion Christ saved "all" from only physical death or "all" from physical and spiritual death? Do you believe unbelievers will be anihilated, or that they too will resurrect in the end?
quote:
If it is solely the physical death His death is pointless. If it is the other the Gospel is pointless. Why is it pointless? What good will it do us if we have fellowship with God only while we are alive? What happens when we die? Obviously, there will be no more fellowship. We are dead.
But Christ defeated death so that we can have eternal fellowship with Him.
Tell me, if you believe Christ defeated death, don't you think it reasons ALL have been saved from it?
When Saddam Hussein was defeated, you think only part of the Iraquis were saved, or ALL the Iraquis?
You believe that believers are saved. Saved from what? The penalty of death of course. What about the unbelievers? Do you believe they still have to pay the penalty of death? Why? Don't you believe Christ defeated death? So if there is no penalty of death, because Christ paid it all, why would you think the unbelievers still have to pay the penalty? What penalty? There is none. Or do you believe Christ only made a partial payment?
When Christ defeated death, in a sense ALL mankind have been restore to a state that Adam was before the fall. Now we are in a state where we all need to conform to Christ's image. It's the way God originally intended it for us.
Before the fall, Adam was not working to keep his salvation, but working to be more like God. So we too are working to be more like Christ. It is not to keep our salvation, but to continue doing what God created us to do in the first place. To be more like Him.
But just like Adam died when he ate the fruit, so we too will die (the second death) if we continue living in sin.
Those who die the second death, Christ will not die again.
I hope this helps.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 8:33:30 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
WQ, is sounds as though you are a universalist from your example, in that ALL are saved by Christ's death, whether they believe or not. The truth is we are saved by believing in Christ for eternal life. No, I don't believe ALL will go to heaven. That is heresy. Read my response to J.Scott at http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=1046229
Hopefully that will explain things better.
Believing in Christ is not what saves us from the penalty of death. Christ already did that for us. Why do you have to believe to be saved from the penalty of the "original sin"? Was Christ's work not enough?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 9:15:17 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
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J.Scott,
quote:
I'm confused...
So are you saying that through His crucifixion Christ saved "all" from only physical death or "all" from physical and spiritual death?
This was explained twice, at least, already in this thread. However, to be short and will probably engender a flood of questions, here is the brief synopsis.
The first part of Christ work is universal, overcoming physical death. This was the judgement against Adam. The permanent destruction of the human being by the separation of body and soul.
Thus Adam became mortal, Christ raised all men through the Incarnation and Resurrection to immortality. An event that actually happens in the eschotan. This is imposed on all of mankind.
The second part is the atonment. It is also universal, but this is the offer of salvation that Christ offers to each individual. It is given only upon faith and believing IN Him. This was necessary in order for God to have fellowship with a sinful creature in this life as well as satisfy the penalty of those sins, the second death.
By freeing mankind from the bondage to death and sin, Christ freed mankind to make that choice for Himself. We are not bound by the judgement of Adam.
Man was created to have union and communion with God. Man was doing this at the time of the fall. The fall, the judgement, brought death, the end of man upon his physical death. Had no eternal quality. It also precluded having any spiritual union and communion, eternally.
That is the great Gospel message. God, through Christ saved mankind from destruction. Put man back into a proper alignment with God. Using scriptual terms, this is being redeemed, reconciled, made righteous, justified. They all mean the same thing. But God through Christ did it, not man.
The union has always been a synergistic, cooperative communion with God. We were created for that purpose and it is THIS PURPOSE for which each and every soul was saved.
An excellent answer, Walter. Same thing, different way of saying it.
< Message edited by cassian -- 3/19/2006 9:41:55 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 10:51:20 PM
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J.Scott
Posts: 8
Joined: 3/1/2006
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Well thank you so very much for elaborating you must be exhausted...
If man was created physically immortal how do you interpret Genesis 3.22-24. These verses would seem to suggest that Adam was either physically or spiritually mortal, otherwise why the need for or the restriction from the tree of life?
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The first part of Christ work is universal, overcoming physical death. This was the judgement against Adam. The permanent destruction of the human being by the separation of body and soul.
Please qualify with scripture.
quote:
Thus Adam became mortal, Christ raised all men through the Incarnation and Resurrection to immortality. An event that actually happens in the eschotan. This is imposed on all of mankind.
So prior to the incarnation and resurrection of Christ you believe that mens souls were not immortal? Please qualify this with scipture or correct my misunderstanding.
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The second part is the atonment. It is also universal, but this is the offer of salvation that Christ offers to each individual. It is given only upon faith and believing IN Him.
Why did Christ come to die? Did He come simply to make salvation possible, or did He come to actually obtain eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12)? Let's consider some passages from Scripture in answer to this question.
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost (Luke 19:10).
Here the Lord Jesus Himself speaks of the reason for His coming. He came to seek and to save the lost. Few have a problem with His seeking; many have a problem with the idea that He actually accomplished all of His mission. Jesus, however, made it clear that He came to actually save the lost. He did this by His death.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners---of whom I am the worst (1 Timothy 1:15).
Paul asserts that the purpose of Christ's coming into the world was to actually save sinners. Nothing in Paul's words leads us to the conclusion that is so popular today---that Christ's death simply makes salvation a possibility rather than a reality. Christ came to save. So, did He? And how did He? Was it not by His death? Most certainly. The atoning death of Christ provides forgiveness of sins for all those for whom it is made. That is why Christ came.
That Christ does not act as High Priest for all men is clearly seen in His "High Priestly Prayer" in John 17. The Lord clearly distinguishes between the "world" and those who are His throughout the prayer, and verse 9 makes our point very strongly:
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
When Christ prays to the Father, He does not pray for the "world" but for those that have been given to Him by the Father (John 6:37).
There are a number of Scriptures that teach us that the scope of Christ's death was limited to the elect. Here are a few of them:
Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28).
The "many" for whom Christ died are the elect of God, just as Isaiah had said long before,
By his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. (Isaiah 53:11)
The Lord Jesus made it clear that His death was for His people when He spoke of the Shepherd and the sheep:
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep....just as the Father knows me and I know the Father---and I lay down my life for the sheep (John 10:11, 15).
The good Shepherd lays down His life in behalf of the sheep. Are all men the sheep of Christ? Certainly not, for most men do not know Christ, and Christ says that His sheep know Him (John 10:14). Further, Jesus specifically told the Jews who did not believe in Him, "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:26). Note that in contrast with the idea that we believe and therefore make ourselves Christ's sheep, Jesus says that they do not believe because they are not His sheep! Whether one is of Christ's sheep is the Father's decision (John 6:37, 8:47), not the sheep's!
quote:
Man was created to have union and communion with God. Man was doing this at the time of the fall. The fall, the judgement, brought death, the end of man upon his physical death. Had not eternal quality. It also precluded having any spiritual union and communion, eternally.
That is the great Gospel message. God, through Christ saved mankind from destruction. Put man back into a proper alignment with God. Using scriptual terms, this is being redeemed, reconciled, made righteous, justified. They all mean the same thing. But God through Christ did it, not man.
So up until Christ's incarnation and resurrection man's destiny after physical death was anihilation and the Gospel message is that God saved mankind from anihilation and made him able to be resurrected at the Parousia and this is what you refer to as being redeemed, reconciled, made righteous or justified? So were does man's faith come into play or God's grace? And those terms all mean the same thing? But Christ alone did it, not man. Have I got this? What exactly did CHrist alone do? Die? or Resurrect Himself?
quote:
The union has always been a synergistic, cooperative communion with God. We were created for that purpose and it is THIS PURPOSE for which each and every soul was saved.
If Christ did this alone and not man, then how do you describe it now as a synergistic relationship? Either Christ alone did it or you are helping. Not only do you negate your previous statement but you are now stating that this is in fact the purpose for which we were created. To synergistically work with Christ toward our salvation that Christ alone did with no help of ours.
Am I the only confused person here?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 11:15:03 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: J.Scott
I'm confused...
So are you saying that through His crucifixion Christ saved "all" from only physical death or "all" from physical and spiritual death? Do you believe unbelievers will be anihilated, or that they too will resurrect in the end?
quote:
If it is solely the physical death His death is pointless. If it is the other the Gospel is pointless. Why is it pointless? What good will it do us if we have fellowship with God only while we are alive? What happens when we die? Obviously, there will be no more fellowship. We are dead.
But Christ defeated death so that we can have eternal fellowship with Him.
Tell me, if you believe Christ defeated death, don't you think it reasons ALL have been saved from it?
When Saddam Hussein was defeated, you think only part of the Iraquis were saved, or ALL the Iraquis?
You believe that believers are saved. Saved from what? The penalty of death of course. What about the unbelievers? Do you believe they still have to pay the penalty of death? Why? Don't you believe Christ defeated death? So if there is no penalty of death, because Christ paid it all, why would you think the unbelievers still have to pay the penalty? What penalty? There is none. Or do you believe Christ only made a partial payment?
When Christ defeated death, in a sense ALL mankind have been restore to a state that Adam was before the fall. Now we are in a state where we all need to conform to Christ's image. It's the way God originally intended it for us.
Before the fall, Adam was not working to keep his salvation, but working to be more like God. So we too are working to be more like Christ. It is not to keep our salvation, but to continue doing what God created us to do in the first place. To be more like Him.
But just like Adam died when he ate the fruit, so we too will die (the second death) if we continue living in sin.
Those who die the second death, Christ will not die again.
I hope this helps.
If eveyone is restored to Adam's status prior to the fall why aren't we all naked and living in a garden? Not to mention having open conversations with God... IN what "sense" are we restored to be liken to Adam? Not even saved in the spirit folks walk and talk with God as Adam did...
Not to mention the above seems to ignore the distinctions between those who can actually hear the word and those who can't(the walking dead since that lack the spirit which is life)... Those who are not saved or not saved from death it's merely put off till God's plan is worked out...
John
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 11:16:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Am I the only confused person here?
heh...
John
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 11:18:35 PM
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J.Scott
Posts: 8
Joined: 3/1/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
So by Christ defeating death, He has given ALL mankind the ability to draw closer to God. And this is where the Gospel comes in. Christ defeated death, so now we can live freely. But more specifically to live a lifestyle modeled after Christ.
No, because we are still slaves to SIN, regardless of our mortality in the physical realm. Without God the sinner does not want and cannot want God. The second clause of your statement is in no way required by your first clause. Christ's defeat of physical death is not what saves. His defeat of the spiritual; punishment for our sin is what saves. We are still dead in our tresspass until He draws us. This is not of ourselves so that we can boast but purely of Christ. If we work "synergistically" with God then we can boast in our cooperation...but if our salvation is soley God's work than we have no legs to stand on.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2006 11:37:11 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The key is v.19 where Samuel (who has previously died) tells Saul that on the next day Saul and his sons will join Samuel (in paradise, where Samuel resided). Note the quote, "Therefore tomorrow you and your sons WILL BE WITH ME".
What's the point of all this? King Saul died quite dishonorably, yet he ended up the same place as Samuel. This is what eternal security is all about.
Actually, this is what eternal life is all about - and where we are going to spend it - with God or without God.
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