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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/20/2007 2:54:57 AM
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kapowski
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I read the Bible a lot as a kid too. I used to read it on the bus on the way home from school. Then I replaced Bible-reading with Algebra-homework-doing. This probably contributed to the swift decline of my math skillz, although I never made that connection until now.  But, as The Great One once said, "Math class is tough."
My favorite book was James. It had a lot of wisdom crammed into a small space, and I had a short attention span. Also, I'm sure I felt persecuted, and James opens with a nice little rousing "don't let the man get you down" speech.
quote:
Paul writes like a lawyer (or a politician). While sometimes I appreciate that level of detail, smoozing and working out the details, there are times I imagine he would have annoyed me in real life. It's funny you mention that, because when I read the question, I thought (somewhat in jest), "well...pretty much anything not written by Paul." That man has been a big 'ol stumbling block for me. Between the "slaves obey your masters" and the "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent" business and the often haphazard application of his writings within the Church, I have a very, very difficult time with him. very. anyway, since I'm not paying you guys for therapy sessions, we can talk about dragon-fire moats instead.
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/20/2007 10:49:24 AM
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emjayzee
Posts: 516
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Come on, you guys should be all about Paul, taking the gospel to those (Gentiles) who weren't deemed "worthy" of salvation by the Jewish Christians. Paul definitely had his issues, but he makes clear what things are his opinions and what are God's directions.
We were actually just talking about the "slaves obey your masters" verse recently. It was pointed out that slaves in biblical times did not live the life that we typically associate with slavery. And we sometimes forget that immediately after that, the master is admonished to treat his slaves just as his own master in heaven treats him- which is pretty darn well.
I don't have a favorite book. Proverbs is great, of course, and Revelation is fascinating. My favorite verses are those that hit a chord with me during certain times, but there has never been a book as a whole that did that.
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unicorns borrowed from Matthew Webber, copyright 2002
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/20/2007 7:14:51 PM
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zoey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kapowski
I don't know. A well treated slave is still a slave. We visited a rice plantation last summer, and I remember being told that the slaves there had a good life because they were "allowed" to marry and go to school. I just thought, "oh, now that was very generous of you." I think Paul bothers me because I don't believe there's a middle ground between condemning and condoning. If he doesn't condemn slavery, then he condones it through his silence. I'll grant that a lot of my anger is probably a result of my lack of perfect understanding, but then that just makes me angry at God for not making His Word more understandable, and then I get angry at Paul for making me angry at God, and around and around we go. 
Actually, slaves back then (and even in the OT times) isn't the same as the types of slavery we understand in our time.
I'll have to go back and find my notes, if you're interested.
And Paul was very black and white. There's no middle ground with Paul. You are either serving God or you're not. hehe If it makes you feel any better, I have a theology degree and Paul still frustrates me at times. But then, I have to remember...it's my lack of understanding that I find frustrating. 
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/20/2007 8:18:09 PM
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miasma
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I'd like to know. I have no doubt there's differences, but isn't the basic underlying principle the same?
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He can't run the campaign because the economy is cratering? Fine, put in your second string quarterback, Sara Palin. Where is she? What are you going to do if you're elected and things get tough? Suspend being president?
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/21/2007 12:13:20 PM
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makarizo
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me too! I think the 'American perspective' of slavery is surrounded by a great big wall of racism.
and in response to what kapowski said: I do not believe that all the 'writings of Paul' that we see in the bible were written by Paul..... no, i am not a heathen. Perhaps his name was used with the best of intentions, or copy 6 was edited
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/22/2007 5:12:19 PM
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kapowski
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoey
Actually, slaves back then (and even in the OT times) isn't the same as the types of slavery we understand in our time.
I'll have to go back and find my notes, if you're interested.
I'm sure that's the case, but at the same time, the Israelites are described as "oppressed" with the "cruel bondage" of forced labor. They're beaten. Slavery is something they're "delivered" from. More than anything, I find the contrast between "slaves obey your masters" and Paul's letter to Philemon...uh, bizarre? incompatible? He implies that slavery is wrong, but he won't tell Philemon what to do with his slave, because he wants to "appeal to [him] on the basis of love." Other than this, when has Paul shied away from telling people what they ought to do? He's usually off enumerating all of the offenses that will bar people from entering the kingdom of God. ;) Anyway, I would definitely be interested in hearing your thoughts on it.
quote:
I do not believe that all the 'writings of Paul' that we see in the bible were written by Paul..... no, i am not a heathen. Perhaps his name was used with the best of intentions, or copy 6 was edited same here, although I'm hoping someone convinces me otherwise. and I probably am a heathen.
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"The state protects hate!" they yelled at the cops. what about, "I hate Aryan airheads?" or didn't Rhonda go?
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/22/2007 8:44:16 PM
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Auben
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From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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We just read the verses in Exodus about slavery here. Slavery was a punishment for debt, stealing, and other crimes. It was a process of reimbursing the victum. Slaves were to be freed after 7 years unless they choose to stay with their master.
It was more like indentured servanthood.
Later on with the influx of aliens the year of Jubilee was instituted. Every 50 years every slave was to be released and debts forgiven.
I think what is hardest for us to understand is how much God has to meet us where we are. I don't think we completely understand the anarchy of the slowly growing civilization. We view history with the lense of our own century. We think what we understand is obvious.
Just like Jesus did not announce to everyone 'hey, I'm the son of God, the Messiah, get down on your knees y'all' God did not give us a nice point blank 'Slavery's wrong and women are equal...so just cut that out.' Instead he gave us numerous words of how we are all equal in the church and He let us evolve in understanding. He let us go 'duh...I guess if we're equal under God we should treat each other equally!' You can even see this evolution between the Old and New Testements. People were getting closer to understanding what Jesus was all about.
God knows how incredibly stubborn we all are...and how slow to change or admit we're wrong.
One thing I like about Paul...he was not afraid to work with women (Lydia, Priscilla, Julia) or any class(jailers, administrators, slaves, philosphers). One thing that has always made Paul more human to me was his frustration with John Mark (and Barnabus who stood up for Mark) because he took off before finishing his responsibilities. It took him a long time to forgive someone who let him down. That tells me a lot about him, a lot of what I like about him (tenaciousness) and don't like (perfectionism).
I think much of our present anger with Paul has less to do with Paul himself and more with how people interpret the Bible. Paul fought a lot of little fires in the Church, and often we interpret his words as being 'One Law to Rule them All' and less specific thoughts for various situations in the church.
The longer I live the more I realize how much problem we have with interpretation, of everything and everyone. There are so many shades of meaning in language, context, and expression.
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/23/2007 9:14:00 AM
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emjayzee
Posts: 516
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quote:
I think what is hardest for us to understand is how much God has to meet us where we are.
Nery nice post, Auben. That reminds me of this quote in Acts 13, ironically by Paul:
"17 The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers; he made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt, with mighty power he led them out of that country, 18 he endured their conduct for about forty years in the desert, 19 he overthrew seven nations in Canaan and gave their land to his people as their inheritance."
I love that- He endured their conduct. God loves us and wants the best for us, and sometimes that means letting us figure it out on our own.
_____________________________
unicorns borrowed from Matthew Webber, copyright 2002
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/23/2007 10:20:13 AM
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miasma
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quote:
what about, "I hate Aryan airheads?" or didn't Rhonda go?
Seriously. HOW did she get her hair so big...
_____________________________
He can't run the campaign because the economy is cratering? Fine, put in your second string quarterback, Sara Palin. Where is she? What are you going to do if you're elected and things get tough? Suspend being president?
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/23/2007 5:43:09 PM
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kapowski
Posts: 215
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Auben
We just read the verses in Exodus about slavery here. Slavery was a punishment for debt, stealing, and other crimes. It was a process of reimbursing the victum. Slaves were to be freed after 7 years unless they choose to stay with their master.
It was more like indentured servanthood. My Bible (NIV) refers to such people as "servants," rather than "slaves."
quote:
I think what is hardest for us to understand is how much God has to meet us where we are. I don't think we completely understand the anarchy of the slowly growing civilization. We view history with the lense of our own century. We think what we understand is obvious. well, we view history with the lens of our own century when it suits us. ;) I do find it frustrating that a timeless, all-knowing God would choose to give us something that, at times, feels completely impenetrable. The more I try to understand, the less I do. I feel like I need an instruction book for the instruction book.
quote:
Just like Jesus did not announce to everyone 'hey, I'm the son of God, the Messiah, get down on your knees y'all' God did not give us a nice point blank 'Slavery's wrong and women are equal...so just cut that out.' Instead he gave us numerous words of how we are all equal in the church and He let us evolve in understanding. He let us go 'duh...I guess if we're equal under God we should treat each other equally!' You can even see this evolution between the Old and New Testements. People were getting closer to understanding what Jesus was all about. but He didn't stop at fulfilling prophecy and then let us draw our own conclusion from there. He gave us a nice point blank, "I am the Son of God."
quote:
I think much of our present anger with Paul has less to do with Paul himself and more with how people interpret the Bible. Paul fought a lot of little fires in the Church, and often we interpret his words as being 'One Law to Rule them All' and less specific thoughts for various situations in the church. agreed
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/24/2007 12:32:26 AM
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miasma
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quote:
servanthood. My Bible (NIV) refers to such people as "servants," rather than "slaves."
Well, duh, there's your problem right there, becuase as I read it, NIV is not KJV.
On a serious note, that just goes to show how much stock I put into the whole picture, as the phrase goes, when it comes to the Bible. Forget about NIV v. KJV, I want Hebrew and Sanskrit and Greek - for starters.
One of the very first things that "blew my mind," so to speak, one of the first...how to say...anti-everything I (thought I) believed in points of discussion was the Bible and homosexuality.
Apparently there are people out there that think when it's talking about homors - sin, it's referring to pedophilia/the widely practiced NAMBLA action, perfectly normal and common place back then...but the Bible is saying, men, don't have child lovers. Not, men, don't fall in love with other grown men.
That blew my mind, back then! That people were reading the same words I was, and getting something so different...
Which is why I get so frustrated when the scripture wars start around here - tattooing/piercing being a prime example.
N-E-W C-O-V-E-N-A-N-T, people.
quote:
I feel like I need an instruction book for the instruction book.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of it that means more when you understand the context. But the greatest commandment remains the same:
Love thy neighbor as thyself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I do my best to keep that forefront, and try to figure out the details as I go along.
_____________________________
He can't run the campaign because the economy is cratering? Fine, put in your second string quarterback, Sara Palin. Where is she? What are you going to do if you're elected and things get tough? Suspend being president?
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/24/2007 10:47:38 AM
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Auben
Posts: 1636
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From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kapowski
but He didn't stop at fulfilling prophecy and then let us draw our own conclusion from there. He gave us a nice point blank, "I am the Son of God."
But what does 'I am the son of God' mean? The Israelites call themselves the 'children of God.' Does that mean He literally comes from God, is a piece of God, or does that mean He is a prophet of God, or does it simply mean that He is jewish? See what I mean about interpretation? It was only with experience with Jesus that the disciples realized what 'son of God' meant. The words are there but they need a context.
Scripture as it is needs to be taken more as a whole (how does it make sense within what we know of God) and less as verse by verse law.
I think scripture also makes much more sense when taken within the context of a relationship with God. We get into more trouble interpreting what we think God meant by things because we're so desperate to reach Him. It's like those kids with the distant father who do everything he says, literally, because they want so much to impress him. (I'm not saying God is distant/deist, I'm just saying that sometimes people react to Him in that way because they don't know how to reach Him.)
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/24/2007 10:52:36 AM
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Auben
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That's the second greatest commandment, Mi, but perhaps one which is more vaguely practiced within the church.
_____________________________
Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/24/2007 3:43:19 PM
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kapowski
Posts: 215
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Auben
quote:
ORIGINAL: kapowski
but He didn't stop at fulfilling prophecy and then let us draw our own conclusion from there. He gave us a nice point blank, "I am the Son of God."
But what does 'I am the son of God' mean? The Israelites call themselves the 'children of God.' Does that mean He literally comes from God, is a piece of God, or does that mean He is a prophet of God, or does it simply mean that He is jewish? See what I mean about interpretation? It was only with experience with Jesus that the disciples realized what 'son of God' meant. The words are there but they need a context. well, I think he said things that were much more explicit than that. I was just trying to stay within the bounds of your example. ;)
quote:
On a serious note, that just goes to show how much stock I put into the whole picture, as the phrase goes, when it comes to the Bible. Forget about NIV v. KJV, I want Hebrew and Sanskrit and Greek - for starters. true, most of the translations are pretty shoddy in one regard or another. that's one of the great things about the internet: access to information. parallel text, original text, concordances, porn...whatever your heart desires.
quote:
I do my best to keep that forefront, and try to figure out the details as I go along. I think that's important to remember. because in the end, the details are just that.
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/24/2007 3:59:43 PM
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miasma
Posts: 5078
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Auben
That's the second greatest commandment, Mi, but perhaps one which is more vaguely practiced within the church.
What's the first, then?
_____________________________
He can't run the campaign because the economy is cratering? Fine, put in your second string quarterback, Sara Palin. Where is she? What are you going to do if you're elected and things get tough? Suspend being president?
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 4/24/2007 6:17:41 PM
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Auben
Posts: 1636
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From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength.
_____________________________
Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 5/7/2007 12:57:31 PM
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kapowski
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If I were a bird, I'm sure I'd end up being this one.
anyone done anything exciting lately?
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 5/7/2007 1:08:24 PM
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miasma
Posts: 5078
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"She hates men - we've had a builder in who had his neck bitten. We had to prise Pippa's beak off his neck."
Yeah, that's you alright.
I'm going camping for a week in two weeks and I can't wait. I really, really can't.
_____________________________
He can't run the campaign because the economy is cratering? Fine, put in your second string quarterback, Sara Palin. Where is she? What are you going to do if you're elected and things get tough? Suspend being president?
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 5/8/2007 8:40:01 AM
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emjayzee
Posts: 516
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quote:
anyone done anything exciting lately?
We got a new patio set that doesn't involve green resin chairs. It was pretty exciting, for us. It has an umbrella, even.
_____________________________
unicorns borrowed from Matthew Webber, copyright 2002
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RE: Mia's Tavern & Karaoke Lounge - 5/8/2007 9:46:59 AM
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Auben
Posts: 1636
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From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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Had an anniversary and went to some garage sales. That's about as exciting as it gets up here.
Congrats on the furniture, em. Something about non-plastic furniture makes me feel grown up.
I like the part where the bird throws an egg at a photographer 'as if to say stay away from my eggs.' That story would have been so much funnier with a better writer.
_____________________________
Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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