RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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FoxInSox -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/7/2005 3:38:19 PM)

quote:

When I use the term 'the proper way to spank' I am not going to cite a verse that says "Thou shalt use a rod of birch wood, 1" in diameter, and apply to the hindside of a child no younger than 1 year and no older than 12."


sunny, i've gotta tell ya, that made me laugh out loud! what wit!

-michelle-



babbred -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 7:32:56 AM)

Random thoughts here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

Now I'm sure some of the responses will be that self-control can be learned without spanking. I know that is true in some cases. I have a child who really never had a spanking. Maybe a little swat on one occasion, but then I don't really remember clearly if we thought about it or we actually did it. But that was her. I have another one of my four children who practically begged for spankings. Hardheaded would not be a sufficient enough description. There was no reasoning with this kid. She just flat didn't want to listen, because she already knew the answer -- she thought. She would laugh about such things as time outs and denying privileges and other types of discipline. It was a game to her to out wait us. If you've never had a child like this, you have no clue about dealing with them.


Amen. We had a child like that in my family--my sister. And my friend now has a 3-year-old like that. It's really easy to sit back and say things like "Just give them time out" when you're not having to deal with a child like that.


quote:

For a long time, my husband and I kept wondering what we were doing wrong and reading things and speaking to various people we respected (both spankers and non-spankers) and of course praying and reading God's word. We came to the conclusion that she was just that way. That was her. But it was a disservice to her for us to let her remain that obstinate. I've always thought her obstinance was really determination that was not tempered by the Lord. And our part as her parents was to participate in her tempering. These days she knows her boundaries, and there is not one cell in my body that regrets having instilled that by some spankings. She is a person who can stay focused and go after a goal and never, never, never give up. But if we had not helped her along in her focus (and I firmly believe that included spankings at times), there is no telling what she would be doing today. Going her own misguided and hardheaded way no doubt.


Again, amen. If my parents hadn't done their darndest to rein in her stubborn temperament, I shudder to think where my sister would be now.

Other thoughts:

Fuller has indeed become liberal and the Methodists used to ordain homosexual ministers, so I would take any endorsement from either of them with a grain of salt.

Studies that try to prove how bad spanking is are usually done by people who consider spanking abuse. Therefore they lump in true abuse with disiplined spanking. It's kind of the way when you say you're "pro-life" and people automatically assume you're a gun-toting bigot wanting to shoot up an abortion clinic. [8|][&o]


This may raise some eyebrows, but I don't really care what "rod" means. The bible doesn't lay out exactly how you should discipline your child, so I care about what works. Time-outs, denying privileges, etc. won't work with a stubborn child, nor with one who is openly defying you. If your child runs into the road or tries to touch the stove you can shake a finger at him and say "That's wrong!" but it probably won't mean a hill of beans to the child. (It wouldn't have meant anything to me on the roof if my parents had just lectured me down.) A brief burst of pain in all of these situations, though, will mean a great deal.

If anecdotal evidence counts, then everyone I know who was spanked properly has turned out just fine.



elizmomof4 -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 5:02:11 PM)

Please...If I could suggest a video series that I borrowed from our school district, that was an answer to my prayers! It is a SPANK-FREE method of encouraging good behavior/managing difficult behavior in our children. It is loving yet firm, simple. And a win/win for both parents and the kids. Great Team-Family builder!
Corporal punishment is terrible for children. You reap what you sow. My boys actually like the method, because it is simple, consistent, and seems fair to them. And they comply beautifully. My children can duplicate this by habit, and be able to prevent much wasted life on strife and dissention in their own future families, and be the loving leaders they should be. The resource video series is called: 1-2-3 Magic by Dr. Thomas W. Phelan

It sounds corney, and I rolled my eyes at the results promised. But I had faith, and implemented it. I got the same wonderful results. It has been a blessing. I hope this info helps someone and the legacy they leave for future generations of their families.



bzirk -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 6:24:02 PM)

I saw this video about 10 years ago. It's got some good stuff in it. So did the 911 for Parents training and the Parenting with Love and Logic training. Basically I remember all of them preached consistency and confidence in what you're doing and not losing your cool with the kids. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I use it often and think it's a real key in parenting successfully. A kid should definitely know that a parent's yes means yes and their no means no.

But (yeah, there's a but) there really are kids that all that stuff does not work with. I've got one. For those who have not had a kid this obstinate, you do not know what you're talking about. But I figure if that program works for all of your kids, then use it. I think that's great to use it. It's just ignorant to think that it works in EVERY SINGLE SITUATION. It does not.

Now this is coming from a parent who doesn't spank often, but I have had to do it with three of my four children and one in particular.



Sunnymom -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 6:35:07 PM)

I believe in Spank-Free like I believe in Fat-Free! [8D]



PrincessDonna -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 7:43:33 PM)

LOL, Sunnymom! You're too much sometimes!



babbred -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 7:05:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

I saw this video about 10 years ago. It's got some good stuff in it. So did the 911 for Parents training and the Parenting with Love and Logic training. Basically I remember all of them preached consistency and confidence in what you're doing and not losing your cool with the kids. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I use it often and think it's a real key in parenting successfully. A kid should definitely know that a parent's yes means yes and their no means no.

But (yeah, there's a but) there really are kids that all that stuff does not work with. I've got one. For those who have not had a kid this obstinate, you do not know what you're talking about. But I figure if that program works for all of your kids, then use it. I think that's great to use it. It's just ignorant to think that it works in EVERY SINGLE SITUATION. It does not.

Now this is coming from a parent who doesn't spank often, but I have had to do it with three of my four children and one in particular.


Amen. Again, it's easy to preach solutions. "Just do this or that and all your problems with your kid will go away." Anybody remember the movie Problem Child? Easy solutions don't work with kids like that. I know, because my sister was one of them.


Sunny, I love it! [:D]



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 2:43:53 AM)

I think what what scares me to the bone is the fact that some parents will say that they spank and have never abused, but they are abusive. Mother was one of those, and Father let her do it. I came to CW tonight, basically to get away from the horrors of facing my siblings, who have been going through some real traumatic stuff over the last few weeks, as we get to know one another and directly face the abuse that went on in our childhood home. I had been out of town for a few days and was a little bit unprepared for what I came home to, on our family forum.

Here we are -- I am the youngest of five, and we are all grandparents, with our eldest sibling being a great-grandparent -- and we are dealing with the abuse as we get to know one another, coming together at this time, because abuse ripped us apart. The eldest had no idea that we youngest two went through what we did, and he is in shock, and he is really hurting, feeling unfairly responsible for what went on after he left home. The middle three are finding their "voices," writing what they experienced, saw, and heard.

Our parents are gone -- they have met their Maker. Mother's last days, having died fairly recently, were in a home that was considering kicking her out, because she was abusive to staff and to other patients. I cannot say where she is spending her eternity. I am hoping Father is all right.

But the legacy they left. . . and Mother protested that she was a great mother and never beat us, but she "occasionally" spanked. My siblings and I differ. Oh my, we differ. May G-d help us all to recognize that we will stand before Him some day and give an account for what we really did, and there will be no hiding then.



W.O.F. -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 8:33:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

I think what what scares me to the bone is the fact that some parents will say that they spank and have never abused, but they are abusive. Mother was one of those, and Father let her do it. I came to CW tonight, basically to get away from the horrors of facing my siblings, who have been going through some real traumatic stuff over the last few weeks, as we get to know one another and directly face the abuse that went on in our childhood home. I had been out of town for a few days and was a little bit unprepared for what I came home to, on our family forum.

Here we are -- I am the youngest of five, and we are all grandparents, with our eldest sibling being a great-grandparent -- and we are dealing with the abuse as we get to know one another, coming together at this time, because abuse ripped us apart. The eldest had no idea that we youngest two went through what we did, and he is in shock, and he is really hurting, feeling unfairly responsible for what went on after he left home. The middle three are finding their "voices," writing what they experienced, saw, and heard.

Our parents are gone -- they have met their Maker. Mother's last days, having died fairly recently, were in a home that was considering kicking her out, because she was abusive to staff and to other patients. I cannot say where she is spending her eternity. I am hoping Father is all right.

But the legacy they left. . . and Mother protested that she was a great mother and never beat us, but she "occasionally" spanked. My siblings and I differ. Oh my, we differ. May G-d help us all to recognize that we will stand before Him some day and give an account for what we really did, and there will be no hiding then.

The same could be said of non-spanking parents as well. I have a dear friend who was never struck in her life...but she was verbally and emotionally abused to the point that she never married because she refuse to have children and is in counseling still.

I have to say I worry about people who say that they are 'great parents' no matter what their "punishment" of choice is....most parents are williing to admit that they may be good...but they leave a lot to be desired.

There are people who spank AND are abusive....but spanking itself is not the abuse. There are people who never lay a hand on their children, and are still abusive....



SmileyTish -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 8:36:47 AM)

quote:

I think what what scares me to the bone is the fact that some parents will say that they spank and have never abused, but they are abusive. Mother was one of those, and Father let her do it. I came to CW tonight, basically to get away from the horrors of facing my siblings, who have been going through some real traumatic stuff over the last few weeks, as we get to know one another and directly face the abuse that went on in our childhood home. I had been out of town for a few days and was a little bit unprepared for what I came home to, on our family forum.

Here we are -- I am the youngest of five, and we are all grandparents, with our eldest sibling being a great-grandparent -- and we are dealing with the abuse as we get to know one another, coming together at this time, because abuse ripped us apart. The eldest had no idea that we youngest two went through what we did, and he is in shock, and he is really hurting, feeling unfairly responsible for what went on after he left home. The middle three are finding their "voices," writing what they experienced, saw, and heard.

Our parents are gone -- they have met their Maker. Mother's last days, having died fairly recently, were in a home that was considering kicking her out, because she was abusive to staff and to other patients. I cannot say where she is spending her eternity. I am hoping Father is all right.

But the legacy they left. . . and Mother protested that she was a great mother and never beat us, but she "occasionally" spanked. My siblings and I differ. Oh my, we differ. May G-d help us all to recognize that we will stand before Him some day and give an account for what we really did, and there will be no hiding then.


I am sorry this happened. I can say that this happened as well to me - to a certain extent. Whenever people in the church would approach my father and mother about it, they would switch churches. I lived scared of my father, more than respecting my father, which is what he was going after.
I do spank, however, I know my limits and I don't spank my kids unless it is necessary. Time out doens't do anything for my daughter. But she'll do whatever you say to prevent a spanking. Right now my son still doesn't like either or, but is leaning more toward time out as being an effective punishment. Each child is different an you have to treat them that way.



bzirk -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 12:09:01 PM)

I have said I was spanked as a kid -- almost exclusively by my dad. He must have written the book on it, because he always spanked with a great calm. He never seemed angry just disappointed. Then he would set me on his knee and ask me if I understood. He would make sure I knew why I was in trouble and how I could avoid that in the future and why it was important to avoid it. It wasn't just to escape a spanking but to be of good character, to instill integrity and brother, did it. A sense of right and wrong is so deeply ingrained in me that it's not funny. I know my dad was used of the Lord to put it there.

What is really funny is that my mother only spanked me a handful of times and all of those times were her chasing me around the house with a switch and then snatching me up and switching me. This only happened maybe four or five times in my whole life, but they're burned in my brain. She just hardly ever gave me any corporal punishment. She was my friend mostly, and this drove my dad crazy. What she would do is take things I did that were out of line and take them and take them and then fly off the handle. She was definitely passive/aggressive. She was also a hair puller. She would grab the hair on the back of my neck and yank my head around to confront her face where she spoke through clenched teeth. I wasn't going anywhere. But other than that occasionally, she appeared to be pretty laid back. She was a playmate and would get down in the floor with me and color and all of my friends adored her as well as my dad. But when she'd had enough, oh boy, get out of the house! I was determined not to parent like this. BTW, she was never spanked as a child. No one ever laid a hand on her in any way, and she did not give them reason to.

My dad otoh hand never lost his cool. I looked back later and didn't know how he did it. Of course we talked, and he said there were some times he was plenty steamed. Like the time I stood on the soap dish in the bathtub and it pulled out from the wall -- when they had told me not to do this. Not only did I do it once, but I did it twice. I did a lot of things twice. [8D] I was hardheaded. My dad said he was amazed at how strong willed I was, and at times it scared him. But of course I NEVER knew any of that until I was about 30 years old. LOL!! My dad was spanked as a child, and this guy had the control of iron. I never felt abused by my dad spanking me -- not one time. It actually was one of the things that gave me security believe it or not. No, what my dad did that was abusive is that he was always on my back about something as I got older. His expectations of me were absurd. Even his friends would comment on it. I thought that's how all parents were, so I didn't rebel.

When I was grown, my friends who actuallly adored him said, "Lisa, I don't know how you took it. I really don't." I've heard that statement many times. But none of it had to do with spanking. My dad just had very rigid standards of conduct and out of my love and respect for him, I met them. After my mother dies, I'm seriously thinking of writing a book about him.



babbred -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 6:29:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

I have said I was spanked as a kid -- almost exclusively by my dad. He must have written the book on it, because he always spanked with a great calm. He never seemed angry just disappointed. Then he would set me on his knee and ask me if I understood. He would make sure I knew why I was in trouble and how I could avoid that in the future and why it was important to avoid it. It wasn't just to escape a spanking but to be of good character, to instill integrity and brother, did it. A sense of right and wrong is so deeply ingrained in me that it's not funny. I know my dad was used of the Lord to put it there.


That's how my Dad spanked me. My mother wasn't as bad as yours, though. Ever now and then she's give us a swat on the rear end, but for the most part it was just her tone of voice that made us behave.

I agree that you can be abusive without ever spanking. I would consider what my aunt and uncle did a form of abuse. No discipline, no boundaries, and now my cousins are thoroughly spoiled and self-centered.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 7:37:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

My dad otoh hand never lost his cool. I looked back later and didn't know how he did it. Of course we talked, and he said there were some times he was plenty steamed. Like the time I stood on the soap dish in the bathtub and it pulled out from the wall -- when they had told me not to do this. Not only did I do it once, but I did it twice. I did a lot of things twice. [8D] I was hardheaded. My dad said he was amazed at how strong willed I was, and at times it scared him. But of course I NEVER knew any of that until I was about 30 years old. LOL!! My dad was spanked as a child, and this guy had the control of iron. I never felt abused by my dad spanking me -- not one time. It actually was one of the things that gave me security believe it or not. No, what my dad did that was abusive is that he was always on my back about something as I got older. His expectations of me were absurd. Even his friends would comment on it. I thought that's how all parents were, so I didn't rebel.

When I was grown, my friends who actuallly adored him said, "Lisa, I don't know how you took it. I really don't." I've heard that statement many times. But none of it had to do with spanking. My dad just had very rigid standards of conduct and out of my love and respect for him, I met them. After my mother dies, I'm seriously thinking of writing a book about him.


I am trying to remember the name of the book -- a rigid, loving father, a loving mother, with umpteen children and how they grew up. Rats! Wish I could remember the name of the book, because your father sounds like him! He was charming in the book. [;)]



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 8:06:11 PM)

Could it be "Cheaper by the Dozen"?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 11:35:50 PM)

Yes, yes, yes, 2cappucinosmom! Thank you!



bzirk -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/13/2005 11:55:54 PM)

ROFLOL!!

What makes that comment eerie is that my dad was constantly trying to cut out wasted motion. If I heard one comment about not wasting motion, I heard it a thousand times. When I would hang any of his clothing in the closet, he instructed me to hang his pants with the waist to the left and the placket facing the back of the closet, so that when he pulled them off the hanger with his left hand (he was left handed), the pants would be facing frontwards and would be ready put on. That is the kind of stuff he wanted done.

And what's really amazing is that he was such a people person. He wasn't so obsessed with being technical that he didn't have time for people. He would visit all kinds of people. He was the kind of guy who would take side trips to visit old people who might be the parents of people he knew years ago or went to school with or whatever. IOW, he made time for people and to sit and listen to them and edify them. It was amazing. I spent much of my childhood at my dad's side while he was visiting various people. He really did have a pastor's heart, but he hardly ever went to church.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/14/2005 12:36:07 AM)

Hilarious, Bzirk!!



Alugitod -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 5:43:07 PM)

I fully believe in spanking and spank my own children, however; it can be overly used by a "lazy" parent or a parent who becomes too comfortable with that mode of disipline. I know someone who only spanks their children. If the kid jumps on the couch: spanking. If the kid whines: spanking. If the kid throws a toy: spanking. If the kid is generally getting on the mom's nerves: spanking. And guess what? The kid is a spoiled rotten brat. I love him, but he is. He has learned that if he does wrong it's okay, because he gets a spanking and it hurts for a minite then he gets to go on with whatever he wishes. He stayed with me for a few days and talked back very disrepectfully and although his mother had given me permission to spank him I didn't. I sent him straight to bed, early. He HATED it. He had a lasting consequence and it left a lasting effect on him. I didn't have anymore trouble out of him for the remainder of his stay (a few days).

So, yes spanking is an okay means of disipline, but if overly used a kid will just get used to it and it will become ineffective.



bzirk -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 1:38:20 AM)

Discipline done in an unthinking and purely reactive manner is dumb. Wish I had a softer word, but that's how I see it. It's dumb anytime people don't THINK about what they're doing.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 7:09:26 AM)

You are right, Bzirk -- any type of "discipline" given in an undisciplined moment is not disipline at all.



smootches2uall -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 7:41:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

You are right, Bzirk -- any type of "discipline" given in an undisciplined moment is not disipline at all.


I think I am going to post that here beside our puter.



Proverbs31Woman -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (10/4/2005 3:40:53 PM)

Hi, I just to give my two cents. :) I haven't read everything in this thread but have scanned it.

I just wanted to make on reference to the scripture that someone quoted about the rod of correction. It was said that the rod was used by a shepard to guide the sheep. It was a tool not for hurting but for gentle guiding.

This is true. The shepard is gentle to his flock. He stands by it and guides it where it needs to go. But he also does something else.

He guards it. How does he guard it? He has a rod (or a shepard's staff). Why do you think that it is so massive and heavy? Why would he need such an instrument to only guide and love his flock?

He uses it when the wolves come. When the wolves come to confuse, destroy, and kill the sheep he strikes it dead with his rod.

How does this apply to disicipline and spanking?

One verse says, "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him."

When the "wolves" or satan/human flesh rise up in your child and are causing him to act improperly (and destroy in a sense how he should act under God) you need to take out your "rod" and drive the "wolves" away.

Children act improperly due to sin, flesh, and satan. These things are like the wolves coming to kill our sheep (our kids). We protect them and save them by "striking dead" these issues that arise to destroy our kids.

This is very figurative, forgive me. But, a spanking drives away folly and rebellion which Satan loves to use against our children. It saves their lives just as the shepard saves his sheep.

If you don't believe me than get: "Sheparding a Child's Heart" by Dr. Tedd Tripp



Child4Jesus -> To Spank (10/4/2005 4:23:32 PM)

Proverbs 10:13
Wise words come from the lips of people with understanding, but fools will be punished with a rod.

Proverbs 13:24
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.

Proverbs 22:15
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.

Proverbs 23:13
Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.

Proverbs 29:15
The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.

If God thinks it's important, then so do I.



W.O.F. -> RE: To Spank (10/8/2005 8:21:22 AM)

While we do practice spanking, I again feel it is important to point out that it is NOT the spanking itself that drives out the "wolves", but the teaching that comes before the spanking ever becomes an issue. as well as the punishment itself.

It would be sin to spank a child for something that you have never explained to them is wrong and have not given them warning for. God Himself never punished the Israelites without giving warning and a chance to change first. We can do no less for our children

If someone ONLY spanks and never truly disciplines their children....then they are fighting a losing battle.

We must TEACH our children the path of right and wrong....and then use punishment (whether spanking or other forms) to help them stay on it.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: To Spank (10/8/2005 10:33:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus

Proverbs 10:13
Wise words come from the lips of people with understanding, but fools will be punished with a rod.

Proverbs 13:24
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.

Proverbs 22:15
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.

Proverbs 23:13
Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.

Proverbs 29:15
The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.

If Solomon thinks it's important, then so do I.

(the change in the above quotation is mine)

Nowhere does G-d say the above. Would we also attribute the words of satan, which are in the Bible, to G-d?



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