RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Mrs.X -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/9/2005 12:30:22 PM)

I'm 21, so I have no problem remembering back to when I was 4 or so. My mom spanked me I think about 5 times in my life for the same reasons Tammy spanks her kids. I don't think I got one after the age of 6. She never did it in public. My mom would say, "YOU'RE GOING TO GET A SPANKING WHEN WE GET HOME!." It wasn't physically painfull to get a spanking from her, but I would cry and cry because I dissappointed her so much that she had to spank me. I never wanted to make her mad or sad, but sometimes kids just don't think. She cried when she would give me a spanking too. And, it wasn't like, "SPANK, SPANK, SPANK, SPANK!" It was just one spanking. For the most part, my mom really instilled in me that she was the boss, and I was OK with that. When she said something was bad, I wouldn't do it. If she told me no, I wouldn't do it. She taught me manners and to always respect adults and never back talk. She taught me that at a very young age, so she never really had to discipline me that much. I just remember 5 spankings, and I don't recall any time-outs. I wasn't one of those kids who acted up to get attention either. My mom and the rest of my family gave me so much positive attention, that I didn't need to. As I understand it, boys are a little more stubborn? Our first one is on the way.

On the other hand, one of my good guy friends growing up was spanked way too much. But, he wasn't just spanked, he was slapped by his mom, and his dad used a belt. We were like 10 or 11, and he was still getting whooped. And, it was for stuff that was stupid. Like, we both had to be home before the street lights came on. If I got home after the street lights came on, my mom would tell my why that rule is important, and I couldn't talk on the phone that night or have anyone over. If he got home after the street lights came on, he would get screamed at by his mom and whooped by his dad. His parents ended up divorcing, and he moved in with his grandma and grandpa. When we got to be like 15, he got in fights at school and started hanging out with these shady people who also got into fights a lot. Sadly, I stopped hanging around him. Last I heard, he was on meth and going downhill fast. I know it wasn't just the horrible spankings. His parents were really messed up people.

My opinion, a little bit of spanking is OK. (But, don't do it in the state of Oregon!) If the spanking is more scary than painfull, then I think that's the way to go. Giving children ALOT of positive attention keeps them from wanting attention and doing bad things to get it.



Mrs.X -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/9/2005 12:40:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gratefulforgrace

I don't really know what I think about spanking yet. My parents spanked me and I turned out great, IMHO [:)]

I think the thing that scares me about spanking is that I'm sure when my child disobeyed I would already be somewhat angry. How do you make sure that you are spanking out of a real desire for correction and not anger?


OK, I've got the perfect example for this one. One time, I wasn't eating my spinach. My mom said, Do you want to go to your room with no dessert?" I responded with, "DO YOU?!" Not really sure why I said that. She said, "Let's go in your room. You're getting a spanking." She talked to me for a little bit about the importance of not back-talking. She never seemed raging when she gave me a spanking. It think it's because we would always talk about what I did and that it caused a spanking before I actually got the spanking. Maybe it gave my mom time to cool off.



Invisible_Woman -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/9/2005 4:06:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: W.O.F.



I also think you have to be sure that any spankings come as a FOREWARNED consequence...not an impulse decision. The only exception might be if they are getting ready to touch a hot stove, put their finger in the light socket, etc..and even then I always did the grab, yell and correct thing the first time....



My son only got spanked for direct disobedience and he always knew his boundaries. So it wasn't about impulse spanking.

Looking back yourself...was there any sign of resentment at the time? or was your son a very easy going child (not saying he wasn't strong willed...please understand that by easy going I mean not easily stirred up to visual anger)?

My son was not angered easily and was very easy going and a calm child. He still is today. He is very good about thinking before acting. He still likes to know his exact boundaries and our expectations of him.

Also, in your one post you pointed out how your family doesn't hit the cattle....I have to say that my uncle was rancher...and when we had to move cattle from one pasture to the next or to the summer meadow...we kicked the ones who wouldn't move in the rear from the back of a horse....I would never kick one of my children though....nor would I use a cattle prod on them (especially since most have an electric shock to them that will knock you on your backside....)

No my family does not HIT the cattle, they do have a prod it is not electric and they push them guiding them with it where they want them to go. They place it on their rear end and push hard, but they don't actually raise back their arm and hit with the prod. It is a push in the right direction.



Momof5Angels -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/9/2005 4:32:23 PM)

My opinion about spanking is very similar to James Dobson's theory. If anyone gets a chance to read his books on biblical discipline, they are excellent.
I think when people think of spanking, they think of the irate mother who wildly smacks at her child out of frustration, or the father who whips off the belt and pummels his child into submission. According to the Word, discipline should be administered with love and instruction. Following these guidelines, it is sometimes appropriate to spank, but I also think it depends on the child. Some children respond well to verbal admonition and spanking is unnecessary.



floydette -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/14/2005 8:50:49 PM)

We have not spanked our child. Slapped her hands when she was tiny a couple of times, but that it is. If I had it to do again, I would not change. I do not want my child to be in fear of me. I don't mind if she fears the consequences, but not her parents.

I was spanked by a loving parent, that was angry. I found it degrading.



W.O.F. -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/16/2005 9:47:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: latic

quote:

ORIGINAL: W.O.F.



I also think you have to be sure that any spankings come as a FOREWARNED consequence...not an impulse decision. The only exception might be if they are getting ready to touch a hot stove, put their finger in the light socket, etc..and even then I always did the grab, yell and correct thing the first time....

Was there any abuse in the family (even cousins etc) that he may have beeb cognitively aware of?

My son only got spanked for direct disobedience and he always knew his boundaries. So it wasn't about impulse spanking.

Looking back yourself...was there any sign of resentment at the time? or was your son a very easy going child (not saying he wasn't strong willed...please understand that by easy going I mean not easily stirred up to visual anger)?

My son was not angered easily and was very easy going and a calm child. He still is today. He is very good about thinking before acting. He still likes to know his exact boundaries and our expectations of him. BUT did his boundaries include knowing the consequence for an action? We do not spank unless we have informed our children that a certain action will be a spanking....the fact that he was not easily angered may be that he just is able to...hide his feelings. The thing to keep in mind is, you did what you did. You cannot change that and you were trying to make the best decision you could. Were there signs to show how he felt about spanking at the time? maybe, maybe not. The other thing to ask is...is that how he felt at the time? or how he feels now...looking back on it? I'd ask him again when he is 20....or after he has children. Not that it is invalidating what he has said, but it would be interesting to see IF his response changes at all.

Also, in your one post you pointed out how your family doesn't hit the cattle....I have to say that my uncle was rancher...and when we had to move cattle from one pasture to the next or to the summer meadow...we kicked the ones who wouldn't move in the rear from the back of a horse....I would never kick one of my children though....nor would I use a cattle prod on them (especially since most have an electric shock to them that will knock you on your backside....)

No my family does not HIT the cattle, they do have a prod it is not electric and they push them guiding them with it where they want them to go. They place it on their rear end and push hard, but they don't actually raise back their arm and hit with the prod. It is a push in the right direction.

My point was to show that, even with cattle, there are different standards....my uncle never hit the cows with the prod...but I still wouldn't use one on my kids...even the non-electric ones are 'dangerous' but they are appropriate for the hide of cows.....and it goes the same with kids...what is appropriate for their hide.



smootches2uall -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 10:52:11 AM)

2 Samuel 7:14: "I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men"

Proverbs 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Proberbs 10:13: "In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod [is] for the back of him that is void of understanding."

Beyond these, check Proverbs 23:13, 22:15, and 26:3

Some say that a rod is symbolic of reproof or correction that can just as easily take the form of verbal correction or 'lashing'. Proverbs 29:15 states "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame." Just in case you thought it figurative to use an actual stick to implement correction, this verse makes a very solid distinction and says to use BOTH a rod (physical correction) and reproof (verbal correction).

We use spanking (beginning at 1 year of age - a light swat on a diapered bottom to insure the point) in our family. But we use certain regulations:


  • We never use our hand - a hand is for loving. We use a wooden spoon that we have tested on ourselves to find the correct amount of muscle (or lack there of) to make sure it is not done to hard.

  • We never spank in anger - If one of us is too upset, we either send the child to their room or the corner so mom/dad can cool off, or we let the other spouse implement the discipline.

  • We always talk to them before and after the spanking about why they are recieving it, then we help them to pray afterward.


There is a difference between correction by spanking and beating. Beating teaches violence and anger while spanking (with the correct verbal correction and loving boundaries) teaches wisdom. It is Biblical. BTW, children who have never recieved a spanking often hit other children, it is in our sinful nature, so the arguement that spanking teaches violence is moot. We are born a fallen creation in sin. Children are not born inherintly good, but inherintely sinful. It is our job as parents to met out discipline and correction with love.



smootches2uall -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 10:54:46 AM)

BTW and OT, I have been a member since 2001, but every time I log on (which, last time, was about 4 months ago) I show being a new member. Why is this???



Georgia-Peach -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 10:57:53 AM)

You have to post 100-150 (I cannot remember the exact amount) and then you move up. Each time you meet a certain amount of post you move up again.



smootches2uall -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 11:10:22 AM)

But it still does not make sense that I am showing having been a new member, since 7/21/2005, and only having 2 posts. Strange.



BenQuebec -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 11:12:39 AM)

Smootches2all,

I've just sent you a PM with more detail.

If you have any more questions, please do not respond in this thread, as it distracts from the topic being discussed. Thanks!

BenQuebec
Forums Volunteer



HenriettasCat -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 2:06:49 PM)

Smootches

Where do you get the evidence that children who do not recieve spankings hit other children. My son has never recieved a spanking at 2 1/2, is well disciplined (at the moment we use time outs and consequences eg he peed in his sandpit on purpose the other day, so no sandpit for the rest of the afternoon). I don't even think hitting another child has even entered his head. I have witnessed him being hit by others though and he points his finger at them, tells them in strict tones it's very naughty and comes and tells me (he usually tells me they need to go and sit on the stairs!).

On the other hand I am forever seeing children who regularly see smacking hitting other children because they copy what they see. My evidence is only anecdotal, but i am interested to know where you found your research to back up your arguement.

Helen



smootches2uall -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 2:46:30 PM)

quote:

Where do you get the evidence that children who do not recieve spankings hit other children.
The fact that I am part of 2 playgroups, a church children's group, and a kids care at the gym and are friends with many of the women whose children play with mine. My children have been hit or swatted by 90% of the children that I know for a fact their parents don't agree with spanking and don't practice it. My children, on the other hand, as well as other couples (that practice spanking (in the minority)) children have rarely, if ever, hit another child.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 3:04:43 PM)

quote:

Where do you get the evidence that children who do not recieve spankings hit other children.


LOL. I belong to a board that has a definite "all spanking is abuse" attitude (I'm not there for discipline tips! [;)]), and in thier discipline/child rearing folder there is always an ongoing post (sometimes two or three at a time)about someone who is just baffled that thier never-spanked child is hitting/biting. Or worse, injuring a smaller sibling or pet.

Meanwhile, my ds does get spanked when he needs it, and does not hit. As far as I can remember, he has *never* hit. He bit me once, long ago. Got spanked. Didn't do it again. Tried it with the new baby, got spanked, didn't do it again. Never tried it with his daddy--I think he knows well enough daddy is less tolerant than me or the baby!

Are you assuming that parents who spank, spank for every infraction, and for every mistake?? Your sandbox example sounds like something I would use even though I'm a spanker. I don't spank ds for whining. I just don't give him what he whines for. I don't spank him for spilling something, only deliberately dumping things when he's been told not to (I once heard an "example" of how spanking is bad, with the example-giver assuming that people who spank beat thier children for accidentally spilling milk [8|]).

I don't know anyone, even the Pearls, who advocate spanking children for every infraction and spanking for mistakes or accidents. [&:]



joint heir -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 3:52:53 PM)

I think that whether a kid is aggressive or not has much more to do with their personality and their verbal development than it does with whether or not they are spanked...

We had a hitter...We tried everything...non spanking and spanking (this was over 3 years) no approach seemed to work....

Now she is a beautiful and kindhearted 7 year old...the best of the bunch....She grew out of that phase...people don't even believe me when I tell them how "bad" she was...we get a lot of laughs when we look back at that stressful time (she got kicked out of Sunday school[8D])

What matters most is parental involvment...regardless of how they discipline...I think God rewards the effort and the desire to follow what you think He wants for your child....



HenriettasCat -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 5:16:12 PM)

I just don't think you can say that the reason children hit is because they are not spanked. Many experts would disagree and I am not saying they are right either. One of the difficulties with such research is that you just don't know what else is going on (or not) which may also be causing such behaviour, or as it has been said it may just be the child's personality. We have to remember that children are just that and it takes some longer to learn than others. Secure learning is better IMO than quick learning.

(BTW The sandpit incident was not an accident - he would not have been disciplined for that. He actually told us he was going to do it and when we said 'no' he proceeded to do it anyway, right infront of us - I think it was one of those little boy experiments with water! )

As has been said before, it is important to set boundaries, some people seem to think the only way to do that is to include spanking. It is not however, my choice of correction and I cannot think of one incident so far in my child's life (short though it is) where a spank would have been the appropriate response.

Helen



smootches2uall -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 5:49:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HC

I just don't think you can say that the reason children hit is because they are not spanked.


I didn't. I said: "children who have never recieved a spanking often hit other children, it is in our sinful nature, so the arguement that spanking teaches violence is moot. We are born a fallen creation in sin. Children are not born inherintly good, but inherintely sinful."

In other words, I have heard it often from non-spankers that spanking a child teaches them to hit; which is bologna. I have seen many non-spanked children hit others. It is, as I stated above, our born nature, not learned from parents who spank in a structured, loving, and disciplined way.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 10:14:47 PM)

quote:

In other words, I have heard it often from non-spankers that spanking a child teaches them to hit; which is bologna. I have seen many non-spanked children hit others. It is, as I stated above, our born nature, not learned from parents who spank in a structured, loving, and disciplined way.


Exactly!



HenriettasCat -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/22/2005 4:04:21 AM)

Then its a moot point on both sides really isn't it. My experience tells me something else, but it is only anecdotal and since coming to this board I have put it down to just my small experience.

I do think we also need to be careful with labelling a childs wrongs as in their 'sinful' nature. I have heard parents say they need to deal with thier child's 'rebellion' but IMO a lot of what (particularly small) children do are a healthy and necessary part of growing up. When my child pushes the boundaries I don't think 'there goes his sinful nature', I see it as something positive. He is doing what a health toddler should be. A child of 2 is only just beginning to empathise (which is why it tends to be the age that autism is first picked up) and hitting is not done purposely to hurt.

Even spankers cannot agree on how often or for what 'crimes' a child should be spanked. I have said this before but in my old church where spanking was considered the biblical approach (in the way that you have discribed) the ladies went around with paddles in their pockets and children were spanked several times a day, it just seemed to be the quickest, first and easiest choice of discipline and the children were forever threatened. One little boy had his name on his paddle and it was hung in the kitchen as a warning. Now these were healthy, loving kids and no harm came, but I just think its a shame that discipline had to be such a focus. IMO to spank a baby is like saying 'you better get used to this because its going to happen' How do you know? Maybe yours will be one of those children who just doesn't need that form of correction. As a parent it seems a very negative approach toward such a young child even if only a 'tap'. One of the leaders had a young wife with an under 2 year old who was very stubborn. She would not 'repent' even after spanking and would resist until she fell asleep. This young mum was advised to wake her child every time she did this to continue the confrontation until the little girls 'will' was broken. Now, this is an extreme case. At the time I was young myself and just accepted it, but today I actually think it bordered (unintentionally) on abuse.

It doesn't bother me how you choose to discipline your child, If you want to spank that is your choice. What bothers me (and the reason I am on this thread) is where I am told it is the 'biblical' way. There are many other sucessful and loving ways of leading and guiding our children which do not involve such physical intervention.

Helen



smootches2uall -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/22/2005 9:13:46 AM)

I'm sorry it bothers you, but I firmly believe that we are told that this is the way.

Now don't get me wrong, spanking is not the only form of discipline we have. When our kids fight (the two older ones) we put one on one side of our sliding glass door and the other on the other side and give them both glass cleaner and rags. Its hard to stay mad at someone when you are 'spraying' them. We do alot of 'reproach' correction, we do timeouts, and we do 'walk in their shoes' approaches. We don't limit only to spanking, but I do believe, FIRMLY, that the Word tells us to use this form of discipline. Can you refute any of the verses I have presented you? If not, how can you be bothered by it? There are lots of 'my ways' to get lots of things done, but they are not as good nor as successful as God's now are they?

BTW, my 2 year old is stubborn beyond belief and the only form of discipline that works on her consistently is time outs. That may change when she gets to another point in her life, but for now, it is time outs.

BTW, did those mom's have permits for those spatulas that they carried around? [;)]



smootches2uall -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/22/2005 9:20:59 AM)

quote:

I do think we also need to be careful with labelling a childs wrongs as in their 'sinful' nature. I have heard parents say they need to deal with thier child's 'rebellion' but IMO a lot of what (particularly small) children do are a healthy and necessary part of growing up.


I agree that is a necessary part of growing up, but I still know that it is sinful in nature. We are born in sin, that is what His Word says. We are born doing evil, that is what His Word says. A child who lies, steals, hurts others, decieves, or blatently disobeys is normal, and a necessary part of growing up, but it is STILL sin. Just as a young woman who is not a Christian, she drinks heavily, has had sexual relations with many men, and lies about her place in her walk to keep from having to excuse her behavior... she knows it is wrong, but knows not what she does, unless we confront her. Do you label it healthy and necessary, or do you ascribe it as it is: sin?

"They [simply] know not what they do", and it is our responsibility as parents to teach them what they are doing in those instances, to "raise them up in the way that they should go so that they will not depart from it."



bzirk -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/22/2005 9:43:03 AM)

I can't remember what I've said in this thread, because it's been so long since I've posted in it. But I have only anecdotal evidence as well. I and my brother were raised by parents who spanked. We're self controlled contributing, and non-violent members of society. Just about every self controlled, non-violent and contributing member of society that I know personally was raised by parents who spanked them. I also know of some self controlled non violent and contributing people who were raised by non-spankers.

I don't know what the answer is for every child. I don't think it's necessarily the same answer, because not all children are the same. Although I do think that to arbitrarily rule out ever using spanking is to fly in the face of what scripture says. I do think that spanking is appropriate at times, and it's more about an attitude than it is a particular infraction. I leave that to parents to know their child well enough to know when their child exhibits rebellion -- and it may not be the same way that another person's child manifests rebellion.

I know that my mother was never spanked in her life, and she has not been out of control as a result. I know that my brother was hardly ever spanked, and he's fine. I know that my nature needed the spanking and quite a few of them. I am one of the most stubborn people walking. I like to think the Lord (which includes using my parents) has tempered that into determination. [8D] But when I was a kid, I wanted to do what I wanted to do. I remember thinking those thoughts. When my parents would tell me to do something, I remember as young as 5 or 6 years old thinking, "Oh, it will be fine if I do that [meaning the thing they didn't want me to do]. They don't understand." Sometimes I wouldn't listen after being told more than once. It wasn't that I didn't understand. It's that I didn't agree, and I wanted to do things my way. I was in rebellion (btw, my parents never used those words with me; I see now that's what I was doing). So then a spanking was applied. There was also a time when I dug in my heels to prove to my dad that he did not have power over me, and I'll never forget my dad leaning down and saying, "You won't win; I will." He later explained to me that he was not going to let me go my own way because he loved me too much to let me be destructive. He was right.

I have taken a very clear approach with my 5 year old daughter. I reason with her as much as possible, and I make her boundaries clear and consistent. No question this is key in training a child. I don't yell at her, and fly off the handle. I was a little more testy (not a lot but a little) with my older children, but as I get older, I do that less and less. I also pray for this child and continually ask the Lord for guidance. I've done this with all my children, and this is also key. Actually it's the most important thing. But with all of that, sometimes I still have to spank my youngest. It's not often, but it does occasionally happen.

So while I'm not looking to spank, I think it would be foolish for me to arbitrarily rule out spanking. I think the scriptures are clear that it can be a remedy and to spare it WHEN IT'S NEEDED is a problem. I do not believe the scriptures teach that we are ALWAYS to spank our children in order to train them. I have one child whom I have never spanked. She is fine. The other three and one in particular (who got lots of spankings) have not been able to do without it, and I feel perfectly free to do it given the Lord's word.



Momof2anddog -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/22/2005 10:10:13 AM)

Nope, don't believe in it. We've managed to raise God-loving, obedient, wonderful children without it.

[:D]
They are almost 16 and almost 12 and they are a joy and a gift.



Momof2anddog -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/22/2005 10:11:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HC

Smootches

Where do you get the evidence that children who do not recieve spankings hit other children. My son has never recieved a spanking at 2 1/2, is well disciplined (at the moment we use time outs and consequences eg he peed in his sandpit on purpose the other day, so no sandpit for the rest of the afternoon). I don't even think hitting another child has even entered his head. I have witnessed him being hit by others though and he points his finger at them, tells them in strict tones it's very naughty and comes and tells me (he usually tells me they need to go and sit on the stairs!).

On the other hand I am forever seeing children who regularly see smacking hitting other children because they copy what they see. My evidence is only anecdotal, but i am interested to know where you found your research to back up your arguement.

Helen


There is evidence that children who are hit do hit other children.



bzirk -> RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread (7/22/2005 10:13:16 AM)

If it's hitting, then I can see the connection. If it's spanking to correct misbehavior, I do not.



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