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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 4:09:49 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6024
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
So now that we've covered the explanation of the rod again, I guess we can go into personal experience again. I was spanked as a child, and my experience was good.
You enjoyed it?
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 6:22:45 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
manda59,
Oldest tactic in the world to use ad hominem when the logic is not sufficient.
This is to me? An adhom is to attack your opponent personally rather than her/his argument.
Where did I attack the person? <insert scratching head emoticon>
This below is designed to swab all of us who spank with the suspicion that we get off on it.
quote:
Far too many people who smack, spank or beat their children do so because it makes *them* feel better.
And this is more of the same.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
So now that we've covered the explanation of the rod again, I guess we can go into personal experience again. I was spanked as a child, and my experience was good.
You enjoyed it?
Simply designed to make me look like I'm perverted in thinking spanking is beneficial. See how you implied that I'm a masochist? Looks like ad hom to me. Oh, it's subtle, but hey, that's the best kind, because then it looks like it wasn't ad hom, and you can say, "What? Who me? What did I do? I never attacked anyone."
In fairness, sometimes people pop off and say things, and don't even intend to attack personally. They speak in frustration and it comes out as a personal attack. That's what I think you did, and having spent a little time on Crosswalk, I understand it. I don't agree with doing it, but I understand it. Done it myself at times.
Maggie,
Thank you.
LOL!! No, I didn't enjoy it at the time. But I look back now and realize that I was blessed to have parents who were going to direct my path the right way, and I was so hardheaded, that if it took a spanking here or there, then so be it.
I think I've shared this a time or two on this thread, but I'll do it again for those who have not read the whole thing. I have four children. One I have never spanked, two of them I have spanked on occasion, and one demanded that she be corrected with something more stern than a talking to. She refused to be reasoned with in words only. All of my children (17, 14, 12 and 5) are obedient, and we have no big problems. They also all have minds of their own. I encourage that, but within the bounds of obedience. It worked with me and my brother, and it's working with my children. Plus, I see nothing in scripture that precludes spanking, and everything that says don't fear it if need be. But certainly it should always be done in love, be done with thought.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 8:24:09 AM
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Proverbs31Woman
Posts: 14
Joined: 10/4/2005
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I haven't been on here in awhile and I noticed after my post that someone said right after me that spanking is not the only way to punish but that instruction should be given first. I just wanted to clarify to that poster and to the forum that I know that.
My argument was that spanking should be used. I was only trying to show that spanking is a vital part of disicipline. I appologize if I made it sound like it was the only way to disicipline.
When my children do something wrong I tell them what they did wrong (if they've never done it before). If they have already done it before and I know that they know it's wrong, then its a spanking.
I have never spanked in anger. I always check my spirit first. There was one time that something valuable was broke and I was too angry about it. I just walked over and cleaned it up and I didn't spank my child because I knew it was better to just explain what they did was wrong than to risk spanking in anger.
I usually don't get angry at my children for the things they do wrong. I have been blessed with a good amount of patience and I just simply understand that they are going to make mistakes and that they aren't going to do the right thing all the time.
I love my children with all my heart and would never do something that I thought would harm them. I spank them out of love, not anger. I love them enough to spank them and correct them when they have "gone astray" so to speak. I don't really want to spank them. Sometimes it is really hard to spank them. But, I believe that it is biblical to spank your children. So, I will continue to do it.
Paul says, "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:11
Discipline=Pain in the above verse. A spanking is not pleasant to a child but it stings and is painful. But it produces righteousness and peace if you train them by it. I want my children to experience the fullness of God. I want them to have a harvest of righteouness and peace. So I will discipline them. I will train them. And I will spank them.
Side note in my bible on this verse says:
"Have you ever disciplined a child? If you are a parent, you've done it hundreds, maybe thousands of times. Why do you reprimand your kids? Is it because you enjoy it? Do you like feeling power? Do you want to bring your children pain? Of course not. Parents discipline their children because they love them. They do it because they want their children to learn and grow, because it's their job to protect them, and because discipline teaches children that rules and boundaries are there for their own good.
Our heavenly Father also disciplines his children. When it happens to you don't be too surprised. And don't be dismayed. Just remember what it means: You are God's child, and he loves you enough to give you exactly what you need."
< Message edited by Proverbs31Woman -- 10/11/2005 8:58:11 AM >
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 8:40:23 AM
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Earl_Lee
Posts: 41
Joined: 9/21/2005
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How can I sit back and be silent on this one.
Whenever I read the phrase from Proverbs that says they will not die, I have to laugh inwardy. They will not die, they will just wish they could.
My parents never broke a bone in my body. There were never any late night trips to the emergency room. Still, they broke my mind. They did it because corporal punishment is very close to the edge of an abyss.
When I say that they broke my mind, I mean that I cannot face the possibility of pain again. I dissociate. I leave and go to be somewhere else. I learned that behavior from them and the discipline.
Just put it together for yourself. When does the punishment occur? When the parents are angry. What are some of the things people do?
1. Spank a child with the paddle from those rubber ball on an elastic toys. What does that do? It impressed this logic on me. No paddle, no spanking. My mom can only hit so hard with her hand until her hand cannot take it any more. So, no paddle no spanking, no birthday parties. People give those wicked things out at birthday parties as gifts. I am not going to go because they are going to give me an instrument of pain and insist that I take it home. Conclusion, the world is a very cruel place where toys are meant to hurt.
2. Then there is the, if you don't stop crying I will hit you harder bit. What does that teach? It taught me to go limp. To go somewhere else. To be gone and non-existant. It taught me to let all of the other kids beat me up, no, pound on me, without offering the slightest bit of resistance. Resistance equals more pain. Fleeing equals pain.
3. Then there is the, we only do this because we love you. Hit, love, hit, love,hit, love. Love equals pain. Love is a horrible thing.
4. Now throw in God on top. We do this because God commands it. We do this because God wants it. Hit, God, hit, God, hit, God. God equals pain.
Oh, you might think, I would never do that. But, the verses are there and people interpret them to mean thou shalt hit thy child. They get encouragement from those people who dance up to the line and say it is correct. For every one who can balance on the God-given line without sin there are many who sin and fall short of that mark. There are many who are unforgiven humans and do that which is against God's law and claim that it is covered by the law. If there were no sin it would be possible for me to trust people to live up to God's wisdom. Because there is sin we need to love one another and buffer the weak from the strong.
As Christians, we need to separate ourselves from the anger and from the emotion. If you become angry with some of the people here writing about this, is it not easy to see that when one mixes pain, anger, and God together the combination becomes absolutely explosive.
Are you going to live your life like Proverbs or Ephesians?
Earl
_____________________________
Sign in a coffee shop - All unattended children will be given two shots of espresso and a free puppy.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 8:52:12 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 9:12:13 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6024
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
This below is designed to swab all of us who spank with the suspicion that we get off on it.
quote:
Far too many people who smack, spank or beat their children do so because it makes *them* feel better.
And this is more of the same.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
So now that we've covered the explanation of the rod again, I guess we can go into personal experience again. I was spanked as a child, and my experience was good.
You enjoyed it?
Simply designed to make me look like I'm perverted in thinking spanking is beneficial. See how you implied that I'm a masochist? Looks like ad hom to me. Oh, it's subtle, but hey, that's the best kind, because then it looks like it wasn't ad hom, and you can say, "What? Who me? What did I do? I never attacked anyone."
In fairness, sometimes people pop off and say things, and don't even intend to attack personally. They speak in frustration and it comes out as a personal attack. That's what I think you did, and having spent a little time on Crosswalk, I understand it. I don't agree with doing it, but I understand it. Done it myself at times.
bzirk,
You seem very quick to assign motive and intent and to have not made any allowance for the fact that I am fairly new and you don't know me.
Do you know my position on spanking? Have you asked?
You made massive negative assumptions with both of those <points up> and I have to tell you that you are mistaken.
The first comment was a general one, not directed at anyone in particular. But it included myself, because to my shame I have smacked my children for that very reason. And I know very well that I am not the only one.
And my question to you was in mild amusement because you said you'd had a good experience of spanking. It sounded bizarre so I picked you up on it, in jest.
Ah well, we live and learn.
Btw, I don't do personal attacks. Just so's you know.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 9:17:04 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6024
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Earl_Lee
2. Then there is the, if you don't stop crying I will hit you harder bit. What does that teach? It taught me to go limp. To go somewhere else. To be gone and non-existant. It taught me to let all of the other kids beat me up, no, pound on me, without offering the slightest bit of resistance. Resistance equals more pain. Fleeing equals pain.
Earl
Earl,
I can relate to this. "If you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about". That's what I used to get. So I learned to repress, swallow my distress, become passive. Even used it to my own advantage - I learned to perfect the art of not crying when my mum slapped me across the face or grabbed me by the hair. It would hurt like anything, and I could feel the tears stinging behind my eyes, but I'd take a breath and just absorb the pain and look her in the eyes. I wasn't going to give her the satisfaction of knowing she'd hurt me, because she had a cruel streak and I think she enjoyed it sometimes.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 9:18:38 AM
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Proverbs31Woman
Posts: 14
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
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Earl Lee,
First let me just say that I understand where you are coming from. I grew up in a very abusive home and understand what you are saying. When I was being abused my mind used to go to that place where I didn't feel anything. I didn't care about anything. I wanted to die because what was being done was not fair, not right, and not Godly discipline. I am sorry about what happened to you but please understand that it was not Godly. It was done in anger, it done to extremes, and it was not submitted under God's authority.
When I got away from my abusive home I vowed never to have children because I didn't want to hurt them the way that I'd been hurt. I was afraid that I would abuse them. I also vowed that if I had children I would never hit them because I didn't want to abuse them.
Thankfully, God changed my heart and healed my heart tremedously. I wanted children, I had children and through reading the bible and other resources realized that in fact it is alright to spank. Spanking if done properly, without anger, with love, and under God is biblical.
I have NEVER spanked my children in anger. The spanking is ALWAYS controlled. The rule is 1 spank on the butt with my hand for a first offense. 2 spanks for normal offenses, (the things they have done before and know they are not supposed to do). 3 spanks if they challenge authority or hit me etc. (3 is very rare.)
They are talked to first so that everyone is calm. I tell them before hand how many spanks they will receive. (We call the spankings "pats"). They receive the spanking and then we hold eachother. We hug and I tell them I still love them and that I forgive them. We kiss and then life goes on. There is no extending the punishment to the "you've been bad so you can't..." Once it's done, it's over and we talk about and remember it NO MORE.
I understand that you might still be angry about what happened to you but it was not discipline. It was abuse, it was wrong. For me there was no consistancy so I never knew when I was going to get it. There were no set rules so I never knew when they were broke. There was no limits, no respect, and no submission under God. There was also no end to how long the parents would be angry over and offense. Sometimes they were mad for a whole day, sometimes years later they brought it up again. It was abuse, no doubt about that.
Biblical Discipline is a lot different than what you and I received and I pray that God will heal you of your hurt.
He has healed me. I never wanted kids or to spank because I was afraid I would abuse my kids. But I realize that I love them UNCONDITIONALLY (which my family never loved me that way.) and that I would never and have never abused them.
Blessings. 
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 9:21:37 AM
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Proverbs31Woman
Posts: 14
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
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Just wanted to say to manda...I know exactly what you are talking about too. Your mum sounds like mine. 
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 9:37:56 AM
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Proverbs31Woman
Posts: 14
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
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Exactly, it was abuse and God hates abuse. That is why it says not to exasperate your children or embitter them.
Abuse does that and God will deal harshly with those who mistreat His precious children.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 9:43:37 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6024
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Proverbs31Woman
Just wanted to say to manda...I know exactly what you are talking about too. Your mum sounds like mine.
Thanks for saying something.
Mum was born in the 1920's to a single mother, not really the done thing then. Mum was in and out of care (welfare/children's homes) till she was 10. In the children's home she had to ask someone what a mother and father were as she didn't know. When she was 10, her mother took her out of care and "gave" her to someone she worked with; mum was treated like a servant, and was also abused there.
What she did to me wasn't right, but she'd had no-one to model her parenting on, and she also had umpteen unmet needs of her own from childhood. She was looking to me to meet all those needs; of course, I couldn't and when I couldn't, she got angry. I have been able to forgive her, and have tried to care for her as she has got older, but with firm boundaries very much in place.
I find sometimes that I still miss though what I never had. When she dies, I will grieve for what she wasn't as much as what she was.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 9:44:54 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6024
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
quote:
I can relate to this. "If you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about". That's what I used to get. So I learned to repress, swallow my distress, become passive. Even used it to my own advantage - I learned to perfect the art of not crying when my mum slapped me across the face or grabbed me by the hair. It would hurt like anything, and I could feel the tears stinging behind my eyes, but I'd take a breath and just absorb the pain and look her in the eyes. I wasn't going to give her the satisfaction of knowing she'd hurt me, because she had a cruel streak and I think she enjoyed it sometimes.
I have seen situations like this in homes where parents did not spank. It ain't the spankin's fault, it's faulty parenting, period. And what you received WAS NOT A SPANKING.
Would you say that hitting with a belt is spanking or abuse?
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 11:36:41 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
This below is designed to swab all of us who spank with the suspicion that we get off on it.
quote:
Far too many people who smack, spank or beat their children do so because it makes *them* feel better.
And this is more of the same.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
So now that we've covered the explanation of the rod again, I guess we can go into personal experience again. I was spanked as a child, and my experience was good.
You enjoyed it?
Simply designed to make me look like I'm perverted in thinking spanking is beneficial. See how you implied that I'm a masochist? Looks like ad hom to me. Oh, it's subtle, but hey, that's the best kind, because then it looks like it wasn't ad hom, and you can say, "What? Who me? What did I do? I never attacked anyone."
In fairness, sometimes people pop off and say things, and don't even intend to attack personally. They speak in frustration and it comes out as a personal attack. That's what I think you did, and having spent a little time on Crosswalk, I understand it. I don't agree with doing it, but I understand it. Done it myself at times.
bzirk,
You seem very quick to assign motive and intent and to have not made any allowance for the fact that I am fairly new and you don't know me.
Do you know my position on spanking? Have you asked?
You made massive negative assumptions with both of those <points up> and I have to tell you that you are mistaken.
The first comment was a general one, not directed at anyone in particular. But it included myself, because to my shame I have smacked my children for that very reason. And I know very well that I am not the only one.
And my question to you was in mild amusement because you said you'd had a good experience of spanking. It sounded bizarre so I picked you up on it, in jest.
Ah well, we live and learn.
Btw, I don't do personal attacks. Just so's you know.
Good. I'm glad to hear this. I'm tickled to be wrong. I mean that sincerely.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 11:39:39 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
quote:
I can relate to this. "If you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about". That's what I used to get. So I learned to repress, swallow my distress, become passive. Even used it to my own advantage - I learned to perfect the art of not crying when my mum slapped me across the face or grabbed me by the hair. It would hurt like anything, and I could feel the tears stinging behind my eyes, but I'd take a breath and just absorb the pain and look her in the eyes. I wasn't going to give her the satisfaction of knowing she'd hurt me, because she had a cruel streak and I think she enjoyed it sometimes.
I have seen situations like this in homes where parents did not spank. It ain't the spankin's fault, it's faulty parenting, period. And what you received WAS NOT A SPANKING.
Exactly.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 11:47:31 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6024
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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Just to let you know, that, in the UK, where I come from anyway, spanking tends to mean a repetitive action, whereas smack or slap is used for just the one.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 12:01:22 PM
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cynthia
Posts: 7983
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: offline
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Earl_Lee,
It is terrible that your parents treated you that way, but that is not biblical spanking.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Earl_Lee
Just put it together for yourself. When does the punishment occur? When the parents are angry. What are some of the things people do?
You are equating your personal experience with that of all people. Your parents punished you when they were angry. This is not what the Bible teaches us. Your parents were not parenting biblically.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Earl_Lee
Are you going to live your life like Proverbs or Ephesians?
Earl
The answer is "yes". I am parenting from Proverbs, Ephesians and other scriptures as well. When we are parenting, we must be reliant upon the Lord. All scripture is valid and must be viewed as a whole.
Spanking should not be mean or angry. Yes, it hurts. However, that does not mean it is bad. Most parents immunize their children, but those shots hurt. Does that mean the parent is cruel and wrong for having their children immunized? Of course not. There are many things that we as parents do that our children do not necessarily like or enjoy, but that doesn't mean they are wrong or bad. To say so is equating pain with bad or wrong. This is simply not true.
If it were the case, my six year old boy would never learn to read or write. He thinks I'm torturing him when I make him sit down for his lessons. Does that mean I should stop what he sees as something he doesn't want to do? Of course not. That would be wrong.
Using my son for another example; he would like to choose his own menu. He thinks I'm being unreasonable to require that he eat his dinner before he gets desert. Should I give in and let him only eat deserts? Of course not. That would be ridiculous.
How about if my parents had made me eat oatmeal and it gagged me? Should that mean I should never feed my children oatmeal because it's child abuse? How about if my children don't like oatmeal, but it doesn't cause them any discomfort, except they want me to buy Sugar Snaps or some other item I deem unacceptable? Should I feed them Sugar Snaps instead because my parents fed me oatmeal and it made me choke?
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 12:16:03 PM
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smootches2uall
Posts: 209
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: Right below the pinky joint
Status: offline
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My dh used to wake up in the middle of the night to his dad swatting at him with the belt; not caring where it landed: face, arms, hands, legs, back, groin... it was fair game. - this was abuse, physical
My mother used to quietly, and with a smile, jab me with words, guilt, and criticism - that was abuse, verbal
My mom used to tell us to 'wait till dad gets home' to get our spanking... then he would take us in a room, tell us to make crying noises while he smacked the waterbed to sound like he was giving us spankings - this was abuse, emotional and mental.
My dh and I use spanking limitedly... as I posted before:
We never use our hand - a hand is for loving. We use a wooden spoon that we have tested on ourselves to find the correct amount of muscle (or lack there of) to make sure it is not done to hard. -(and never a toy or other object - we have a specific spoon used ONLY for this reason).
We never spank in anger - If one of us is too upset, we either send the child to their room or the corner so mom/dad can cool off, or we let the other spouse implement the discipline.
We always talk to them before and after the spanking about why they are recieving it, then we help them to pray afterward.
Spanking is not our only form of discipline either - we try creative ways to get the point across, always including a discussion. The problem revolves, once again, to spank as discipline vs spank as abuse. There IS a difference.
_____________________________
"If you're going to the hospital for the birth of your choice, you're going to the wrong place...they don't sell that there."-Carla Hartley
Birth Junkie Blogger[/
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To Spank Two - 10/11/2005 12:51:35 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 459
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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When it comes to spanking there are times for it and there are times were it is not required.
Spanking should be done if it is something that you have warned the child about yet they still do it.
If your child spills some milk on accident that is one thing. If your child turns the milk bottle upside down and pours it one the floor unpurpose that deserves are spank.
I don't believe in hitting in the face for any reason.
One thing I gotta disagree highly with people is this. "It's not a command so it shouldn't be done."
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2005 1:29:33 PM
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cynthia
Posts: 7983
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: offline
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Here is a quote of the Original Post on this thread:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
Please discuss the issues surrounding the topic of corporal punishment in child rearing.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2005 1:40:14 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5256
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cynthia
Here is a quote of the Original Post on this thread:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
Please discuss the issues surrounding the topic of corporal punishment in child rearing.
Thanks, Cynthia!
-Turretinfan
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