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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 10:53:54 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
I have been following since the first post.
You saying "this is not sound Bible exegesis" does not make it so.
If you think my arguments are incorrect then state why.
Again I am not trying to say that He did or didn't pray in tongues but that it is impossible to prove either point.
Please don't yell at me. I had enough of that type of behavoir on another thread. Whatever.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 1:19:01 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
I have been following since the first post.
You saying "this is not sound Bible exegesis" does not make it so.
If you think my arguments are incorrect then state why.
Again I am not trying to say that He did or didn't pray in tongues but that it is impossible to prove either point.
Please don't yell at me. I had enough of that type of behavoir on another thread. Whatever.
I am not yelling at you. Caps = yelling not larger fonts.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 1:26:00 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5668
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
I am not yelling at you. Caps = yelling not larger fonts.
And I for one with weaker eyes appreciate the larger fonts.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 4:54:57 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
You saying "this is not sound Bible exegesis" does not make it so.
Just so - perhaps then you would be so kind as to show us all the scripture that has led you to believe that perhaps Jesus spoke in tongues -understanding, of course, that we don't know for sure whether he did or did not (speak in tongues) ..................
If you think my arguments are incorrect then state why.
You cannot argue anything if you cannot prove your point or even state why you think what you say to be so. Further, I thought we were only discussing things on this thread. Have I missed something? I do not want to argue with anybody. (unless of course it is a life and death situation and I cannot get their attention) If the use of your word 'argument' is simply semantics, then perhaps you could substitute another word in its place to better help me understand how it is you would like to dialogue with me exactly..........
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 7:25:48 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I agree that the gifts are given for the edification of the Body and not just the believer. However, I do not see where we are told that there would never be a gift practiced for the good of one individual or for the edification of same. For example, Acts 21: 10-11 The prophet Agabus delivers a personal message to Paul - telling him THE HOLY SPIRIT SAYS and then proceeds to advise Paul he will be put in prison - this prophet even went so far as to take Paul's belt and tie his own hands and feet - a physical illustration of the fate that awaited Paul. Once could say, perhaps, that many people were involved because of who Paul was - but, the truth is, Paul was addressed as an individual - this was not group edification - although it did effect - and actually still effects - us all
Perhaps I wasn't clear when I said that Spiritual Gifts are for the edification of the Body. I don't believe it has to be a group. It could be an individual, a small Bible study, or the congregation of a mega-church. The important aspect is that the Gift is being used to build up other people, not oneself.
quote:
This last sentence seems to indicate that rather than believing that these two are no longer present, you believe they are no longer functional as they were meant to be. Is this so?
Sort of. I am less inclined to believe they are currently present, given the way the gift of tongues is being abused in the modern church. But I'm certainly not closed to the idea of the gift still being active, if I were to see it being used properly in the Church.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 7:44:48 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
Perhaps I wasn't clear when I said that Spiritual Gifts are for the edification of the Body. I don't believe it has to be a group. It could be an individual, a small Bible study, or the congregation of a mega-church. The important aspect is that the Gift is being used to build up other people, not oneself.
OK - so going back and rereading your post and what is above, am I right in concluding that your main opposition (strong word I know, but in contextual use only here) would be to the use of 'tongues' in prayer?
Thanks
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 7:53:22 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
Sort of. I am less inclined to believe they are currently present, given the way the gift of tongues is being abused in the modern church. But I'm certainly not closed to the idea of the gift still being active, if I were to see it being used properly in the Church.
Hmmmm... in all seriousness - remembering please, that I do not have a Pentecostal or Charismatic background but have had unfortunate experience and seen the abuse you speak of with both - with that in mind,
I too could say ' the way the gift of tongues is being abused in the modern church' - however - from personal experience and the correct usage - to the best of my understanding in this very liberal atomosphere of anything goes spiritually - it is my conclusion that it is valid.
Again, the point I made re love in the church - if I were to look at what goes on in church I would fail to see Christ's love demonstrated in a way consistent with what I disern should be visible and in fact a testimony to unbelievers. I have real outrage against the misuse of what is real - but with the misuse of the gifts is also a rampant disregard for what the Word of God teaches with regards to same and in general.
Well.....I very much want to know what is true and not to be deceived.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 9:17:12 PM
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MrFribbles
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
am I right in concluding that your main opposition (strong word I know, but in contextual use only here) would be to the use of 'tongues' in prayer?
I wouldn't say that it is my main objection (if I may use that word instead?), but it is one of them. I try and object to any gift being used in a way I feel not sanctioned by Scripture, and I do not see personal prayer in tongues sanctioned by Scripture.
However, I feel equally strong that the practice I see (and by "see" I don't mean in person except for on a handful of occasions, as I've discussed before) in many churches, where tongues are being spoken by many members of the congregation simultaneously and none are being interpreted, is explicitly unbiblical, so if anything, that is my main objection.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 6:57:50 AM
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TJO5
Posts: 189
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quote:
Godhead
Paul clearly prophesied that the gifts they were now blessed with would cease.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(1Co 13:8-10)
Now he was clear as crystal.
He tells us of what will vanish away, and what will stay.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
(1Co 13:13)
Unfortunately for your position the term "that which is perfect" does not refer to the completion of scripture,and there is not a single verse of scripture which supports that theory.
perfect-TELION- in this case refers to maturity,as it is clear that it is being contrasted to childishness from the subsequent verses.
Furthermore we can deduce from this passage that we have not reached that level of maturity because we do not see God face to face- your verse about "now abideth faith,hope,and charity" proves this point.
If we saw God face to face there would be no need for faith nor hope because scripture tells us they are unnecessary for that which is seen.
As at the time that Paul wrote this scripture faith and hope abide-maturity has not come= tongues and prophecy have not ceased.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 11:12:14 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
You saying "this is not sound Bible exegesis" does not make it so.
Just so - perhaps then you would be so kind as to show us all the scripture that has led you to believe that perhaps Jesus spoke in tongues -understanding, of course, that we don't know for sure whether he did or did not (speak in tongues) ..................
If you think my arguments are incorrect then state why.
You cannot argue anything if you cannot prove your point or even state why you think what you say to be so. Further, I thought we were only discussing things on this thread. Have I missed something? I do not want to argue with anybody. (unless of course it is a life and death situation and I cannot get their attention) If the use of your word 'argument' is simply semantics, then perhaps you could substitute another word in its place to better help me understand how it is you would like to dialogue with me exactly..........
What are you talking about? I am not trying to argue. I'm not trying to say that Jesus did or didn't do anything. You are the one who keeps trying to say that Jesus couldn't possibly have spoken in tongues. All I am pointing out is that there is no way to say one way or the other. We just don't know. You can't say He didn't just because it doesn't say that He did. I don't go around telling people that I pray in tongues but that doesn't mean that I don't.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 11:50:05 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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Wacotton -Can we lay this to rest please? I don't mind talking to you - it is just that this seems to be too touchy - glad to discuss further if we can tone it down. Thanks - God bless you.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 6/27/2008 12:14:59 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 12:07:33 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
I wouldn't say that it is my main objection (if I may use that word instead?), but it is one of them. I try and object to any gift being used in a way I feel not sanctioned by Scripture, and I do not see personal prayer in tongues sanctioned by Scripture.
Well, I really would like to discuss this further - but I am going to go through the scriptures again - been awhile since I studied 'speaking in tongues' - that might take awhile, so, I will get back to you on this prob.
next week - have a good week end.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 1:34:14 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Wacotton -Can we lay this to rest please? I don't mind talking to you - it is just that this seems to be too touchy - glad to discuss further if we can tone it down. Thanks - God bless you.
Again what are you talking about? You accuse me of yelling, (which I wasn't) and you accuse me of being argumentative (which I'm not) and you are asking me to lay this to rest? Can you explain to me exactly how it is that I need to tone down? I honestly don't know what you are talking about.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 8:59:04 PM
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TJO5
Posts: 189
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quote:
Godhead
Whenever I have confronted (in person), anyone who talks in chanting gibberish, they get very angry. I have found that these people have no fruits of the spirit, well the ones that I have talk too. This so called spiritual gift, makes them proud, arrogant and impossible to instruct in the scriptures. For anyone to think that Jesus had spoke in this gibberish or any other person in the New Testament is madness. Jesus did not speak any other language but his own, and the Apostles spoke the languages quoted in Acts chapter 2. Gibberish is not one of them
A couple of questions.
When you use the term "confronted"-is it anything like the way you "confront" those who believe in speaking in tongues on this forum?
How do you determine that what someone is speaking is gibberish?
Do you understand every spoken language?
Would you recognize the dialects spoken by those in Acts 2?
I would also like you to comment on the following verse.
1 Cor. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
I find it impossible to believe that tongues is restricted to known human languages when this verse,speaking about tongues, clearly states that no man understands. Obviously there are "unknown" tongues.
Would you classify these tongues as gibberish despite the fact that scripture plainly tells us that no one would be able to understand them?
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 11:48:44 PM
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Dougeb
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Mark16:17-19 and these signs will follow those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons;they will speak with new tounges; and in verse 19 jesus went back to the Fathe,r and the signs and wonders followed them and this was even before penticost. so if we believe why would it be any different today when as they preached these signs confirmed Gods power and Love for us if Jesus said these signs will follow those who believe its good enough for me.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 12:17:31 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
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quote:
Mark16:17-19 and these signs will follow those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons;they will speak with new tounges; and in verse 19 jesus went back to the Fathe,r and the signs and wonders followed them and this was even before penticost. so if we believe why would it be any different today when as they preached these signs confirmed Gods power and Love for us if Jesus said these signs will follow those who believe its good enough for me.
Dougeb, do you make a practice of drinking poisons or handling venomous snakes?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 5:41:42 AM
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Dougeb
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my FAith is strong enough to believe that MY GOD would protect me if i where bit that is notwhat jesus is saying to do. talking about temping GOD with poison or snakes. why try and twist the word. it is another sign Paul was bit was he not. GOD is the same yesteday today and foeever. GOD says NOt MAn in the last days HE will pour out my spirit on all flesh . GOD canot give us what we dont believe in. that is why iJESUS says in MArk 16 those who believe.i say you cant have any gift in life till you accept it. that is why God warns about having a form of godliness and deniing the the power there of. i left out the part about poson and snakes because we are talking about tounges Jesus said all who believe. i accept all GOD offers me. GOD is SPIRIT so i/ we must walk and live in the spirit not in our stinking thinking. meanig our ways . His ways are higher than our ways. it is not people who speak in toungs being mocked it is GOD and HE says he will not be mocked. the whole bible is full of GODs power with sigs and wonders old and new testiment is GOD now a powerless GOD?
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 10:20:23 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Dougeb, do you make a practice of drinking poisons or handling venomous snakes?
I must have missed where the above is listed as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Maybe I should read my Bible more closely.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 11:25:11 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
drinking poisons or handling venomous snakes
I do believe that these particular activities are actually referenced as signs and wonders and not spiritual gifts.
Further, I do believe that drinking poison would constitute an act done in ignorance and not as some sort of exotic Biblical beverage.
As Paul was bitten by a poisonous snake in an accidental manner, with no ill effect upon his person - and was not actually performing as a snake charmer - it would seem logical to confer the same type of scenario on another individual unfortunate enough to suffer attentions from a poisonous snake.
The men (shipwrecked with Paul) witnessed a sign from God that Paul belonged to God and that his Christian testimony was valid as Paul could not have had any but a detrimental effect from the snake bite. It was a sign - which made them wonder...........
Again, must be a topic for another thread as it certainly has nothing to do with speaking in tongues other than the thought that Paul may have been PRAYING IN TONGUES - again, not a spiritual gift for the edification of the Body (ie believers in the risen Christ, saved etc)
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 11:27:22 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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Hmmmmm - speaking in tongues is, of course, also a sign - so, not just a gift, as can be seen from Dougep's post. Must be more to this speaking in tongues then just one application.......
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 11:43:55 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
my FAith is strong enough to believe that MY GOD would protect me if i where bit that is notwhat jesus is saying to do. talking about temping GOD with poison or snakes.
If that is the case, then why are tongues different, in your opinion? Why are they sought after, if surviving poisons and venom is not?
quote:
GOD canot give us what we dont believe in. that is why iJESUS says in MArk 16 those who believe.i say you cant have any gift in life till you accept it.
The Apostles and those gathered in the upper room on Pentecost seemed to receive something that they didn't believe in - since they hadn't yet received the Holy Spirit, it seems unlikely that they could have believed in tongues, as they had never seen or experienced it before.
quote:
i left out the part about poson and snakes because we are talking about tounges Jesus said all who believe.
Then why don't you use surviving poisons part of your outreach? If it is part of the signs you believe are open to you, surely it could be a powerful ministry to unbelievers!
quote:
GOD is SPIRIT so i/ we must walk and live in the spirit not in our stinking thinking. meanig our ways . His ways are higher than our ways.
God gave us a brain to use, not to weigh down our necks. If that thinking goes against His word, then obviously there is a problem - however, how are we to know whether or not a teaching is truly against His word if we are not able to consider it with thought?
quote:
it is not people who speak in toungs being mocked it is GOD and HE says he will not be mocked.
My intent was never to mock - only to question. I'm pretty sure God's OK with questions.
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quote:
I must have missed where the above is listed as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Maybe I should read my Bible more closely.
I never claimed they were Spiritual gifts. But if Mark 16 is going to be used a "proof-text" for tongues, then they should be accepted as well for the modern believer - unless I'm missing something?
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quote:
speaking in tongues is, of course, also a sign - so, not just a gift
Not at all. What suggests that a working of the Holy Spirit, a Spiritual gift, cannot simultaneously be a sign?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 11:54:22 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
Not at all. What suggests that a working of the Holy Spirit, a Spiritual gift, cannot simultaneously be a sign?
You do when you state that gifts are only for the edification of the body - we have had that discussion. I intend to get back as I said I would.
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