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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 12:18:46 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Let me make clear what I was saying. . .
Pentecostal churches do NOT as a whole, make that claim. Specific ones, perhaps, but your blanket statement is misguided.
And tongues is NOT a salvation issue, and those Pentecostal churches that side with that are wrong.
Absolutely correct.
Tongues being necessary for salvation is doctrine in a very minute part of folks that call themselves Pentecostal (folks that believe in the gifts that fell on the day of Pentecost).
Those that believe that way are for the most part 'Oneness" believers (non-Trinitarian) and are considered a cult by most of Christiandom.
Those that believe tongues are necessary for salvation are just as far from the truth of Scripture as those who believe that tongues are of the devil.
Thanks
RC
this is very good point, and very important..... maybe it deals less with general church doctrine than it does personal belief.
I am not currently a member of any pentecostal church. A few years back I was a member of a pentecostal church for 2 years, than after that, I went to an Apostolic pentecostal church for a few months.
the doctrine of the church was probably just like you said it was, I never actually heard the pastor say it was a salvation issue, you were just expected to get/have it.....AND..... it was usually the very first thing a fellow member wanted to know about -"did you get it yet"...... "you need to go get it", "if you haven't got it yet, we will make it happen for you" "you just need more faith"..... stuff like that, not in 1 pentecostal church.... every one, and I have visited many!!!
so whether it is a doctrinal statement or not - I am not criticizing the church - I am sharing my experience, and I know that this post can be completely misunderstood, (I am that "other poster"). but I have seen more than few people sooooooooo pressured into speaking in tongues that it offended me. An opinion common enough to offend me that if you don't speak in tongues, you are not baptized by the Holy Spirit.
if that other other poster (raivyne) never experiences this, that is awesome, but I have experienced it.
& I spoke in tongues when I was a boy and I never stopped, i now choose not to do it in public, including pentecostal churches.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 1:47:07 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
but I have seen more than few people sooooooooo pressured into speaking in tongues that it offended me. An opinion common enough to offend me that if you don't speak in tongues, you are not baptized by the Holy Spirit.
if that other other poster (raivyne) never experiences this, that is awesome, but I have experienced it.
Yes I have seen folks pressured into trying to spek in tongues, I have seen folks pressured into saying a sinners prayer; and they are both wrong and most unscriptural.
No where is Scripture are we instructed nor shown by example to "Pressure" folks into anything, and to do so is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 10:38:21 PM
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Godhead
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I was talking to a guy who preyed to God, "If tongues are from your Lord, give me the gift." And assuredly, he speaks in tongues. The thing is, the Bible makes it clear that what they are doing today is not the gift of tongues. So then we should not desire it. I might as well ask God if it is OK to sleep with a prostitute or not, then walk into a brothel and see if God answerers my prayer.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 9:50:38 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
I was talking to a guy who preyed to God, "If tongues are from your Lord, give me the gift." And assuredly, he speaks in tongues. The thing is, the Bible makes it clear that what they are doing today is not the gift of tongues. So then we should not desire it. I might as well ask God if it is OK to sleep with a prostitute or not, then walk into a brothel and see if God answerers my prayer.
A really out of bounds reply Godhead, but I have grown to expect such from you.
The Apostle Paul in a letter to Believers in the town of Corinth said this;
(1Co 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Jesus said;
(Luk 11:11) If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
(Luk 11:12) Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
(Luk 11:13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
So if Paul says he wishes all Christians spoke in tongues, and Jesus says the Father will give more of the Holy Spirit to those who ask; then I see nothing wrong with asking.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 10:28:17 AM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
I was talking to a guy who preyed to God, "If tongues are from your Lord, give me the gift." And assuredly, he speaks in tongues. The thing is, the Bible makes it clear that what they are doing today is not the gift of tongues. So then we should not desire it. I might as well ask God if it is OK to sleep with a prostitute or not, then walk into a brothel and see if God answerers my prayer.
How exactly does the bible make it clear in your opinion? and what about "what they are doing today" makes it not the gift of tongues?
_____________________________
God grades on the cross – not on a curve
Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
The Power of a Simple Gift! samaritanspurse.org
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 1:44:30 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
A really out of bounds reply Godhead
Thanks
RC
Out of bounds at best, sacreligious/blasphemous at worse, to relate speaking in tongues to whoredom.
The only time that bible says Tongues will be no more, the same verse says knowledge shall vanish away.
I guess *tongue in cheek here* Churches that do not allow the Spirit to move in the congregation with speaking in tongues is simply showing proof that knowledge has vanished away in their Church.
Actually, when the Bible speaks of tongues ceasing it is speaking of this temporary world passing away.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 6:03:46 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
The thing is, the Bible makes it clear that what they are doing today is not the gift of tongues. So then we should not desire it. I might as well ask God if it is OK to sleep with a prostitute or not, then walk into a brothel and see if God answerers my prayer.
Where does it say that in the Bible? If you are going to quote the Bible, then pray, please do....YOU don't desire 'it' That's for sure. Embarrased?
Don't want to be 'foolish"?
BTW, someone in the OT DID sleep with and marry a prostitute by God's design. As well, did you know that Jesus has Rahab the prostitute in His earthly lineage? We would not have prostitutes without men visiting them.
It is also really scary that you compare the Holy Spirit to a prostitute. I would repent of that. Really. How bold you are and how longsuffering God is. It's just a shame when an individual hates what God Himself has provided.
Oh....one more thing.....your hit and run posts are really getting old. If you have something valid to say, you should stay and discuss it....not post and then make yourself invisible. That's just immature IMO.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2008 9:48:06 PM
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Godhead
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Well read Act chapter 2 and all of what Paul was saying about the gift of Tongues. See referring to that babble as the gift of tongues, and then quoting verses that speak about tongues, to support it, is just a blatant rending of the Holy Scriptures. Sound doctrine just has no place in some peoples hearts. But I would rather be condemned for speaking the truth, then praised for speaking a lie. I would rather convert one soul to the truth then a thousand souls to a lie. Success as a Christian, is not in how many souls he wins, but who he wins those souls for. This babble is a blatant lie, even if it is a incoherent one. I proudly oppose it before you all.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2008 10:10:31 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
I proudly oppose it before you all.
I see a word in there that does not befit you're supposed humility. Can you find it? 
BTW, we are instructed in the Bible not to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and declare things He has done, of the devil. I sure hope you don't cross that line. Your translation of the Bible must be a real old one....from before the day of Pentecost or something.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 11:19:15 AM
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Him4all
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I think it rather ironic that one who continuously demeans a supernatural gifting of God by calling it "babble" doesn't realize that the very word 'babble' came from the 'tower of Babylon' where God gave us the languages of men...not the supernatural tongues GH despises so vehemently. And those here, who are truly speaking 'babble' today speak/post it in English. I think that's kind of funny and yet very sad.
I know that GH truly thinks he is serving God in what he posts here, and for that, I am sad for him. But it is almost funny when one looks at the Greek word which is used for people who apparently were in the same boat of thinking 2000 years ago.
1CO 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned/idiotes, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad (to rave as a maniac)?
2399 idiotes: a private person, i.e. (by impl.) an ignoramus (comp. "idiot")
I wonder what the church of Corinth did with the 'idiotes' who thought that that the church was a bunch of 'mad raving maniacs', for speaking in tongues? Do you think the Corinthians mocked them or prayed for them? I suppose it all comes down to 'maturity' in the end...ouch...let me send up a short one right now. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 12:19:02 PM
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solarflare
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Hmmm. yes. And in another thread, it is mentionned that the armor of God is the power of God...it is really protection....not power.
It is also stateted, that we don't need anything supernatural....remember this person is talking about God who IS Spirit........and that Job didn't need any of that. Why Job is brought in I don't know, but leave out the supernatural and we have supernothing.
To vehemently hate and despise speaking in tongues is going against the teaching of Scripture. To be proud about hating it, is, well............ 
Quote below:
quote:
[I am completely apposed to this focus on the Holy Spirit. For it seems to be focusing on the supernatural and experiences more then Faith in the Gospel. The power of God is in the Armor of God. None of which implies a supernatural experience. It seems that every man and his dog is receiving revelations from God, these days.
/quote]
< Message edited by solarflare -- 10/17/2008 12:25:53 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 1:12:51 PM
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birthdaycuddles
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Would God tell us to do something in His word that was not from Him or that we could not do?
Jude 20 says to build yourself up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost then in Ephesians 6:18 it says to pray always in the Sprit.
Now how do you think we do that? Answer 1 Corinthians 14:14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my sprit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful"
I think brothers and sisters before we get so outspoken about things we should pray and read the Word and then with love give our answer.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 7:20:06 PM
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raivyne
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Mark 16:17 - And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Certainly seems Jesus didn't mind speaking in tongues.
_____________________________
God grades on the cross – not on a curve
Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
The Power of a Simple Gift! samaritanspurse.org
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2008 1:20:20 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Mark 16:17 - And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Certainly seems Jesus didn't mind speaking in tongues.
I'm not commenting one way or t'other on Jesus' opinion on tongues, but one should not base their views of His opinion on the matter from that verse, since in all likelihood, it was not in the original autographs - that is to say, it was probably added by someone other than Mark.
And that's your textual criticism lesson for the day.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2008 5:06:50 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Mark 16:17 - And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Certainly seems Jesus didn't mind speaking in tongues.
I'm not commenting one way or t'other on Jesus' opinion on tongues, but one should not base their views of His opinion on the matter from that verse, since in all likelihood, it was not in the original autographs - that is to say, it was probably added by someone other than Mark.
And that's your textual criticism lesson for the day.
that is a popular opinion that I am inclined to agree with.... and who reeaaaalllllllly wrote 2nd Thessalonians ?
Speaking in tongues was/is very real to me, and it was very spiritual, my brother tells me that it was nothing more than an emotional hype...... good for him.
the very first time (that I'm aware of) I spoke in tongues, a man in the crowd from the seminary who did not speak in tongues, who didn't claim or disclaim the gift of tongues, was there to observe (his words) told me he understood what I said because he spoke Hebrew. I have to admit that the 14 year old boy (me) was freaked out a little bit. He wrote it all down, and I still have it.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2008 10:50:52 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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MrFribbles,
quote:
one should not base their views of His opinion on the matter from that verse, since in all likelihood, it was not in the original autographs - that is to say, it was probably added by someone other than Mark.
And that's your textual criticism lesson for the day.
And yet that verse still seems to make it into every translation I've been able to check out. Why do you think that is?
And the TRUE "autograph" of the entire book of Hebrews is who? So would you also advocate throwing out that particular book too? I hope you can see the problem I'm having with your personal paradigm of dealing with this verse. The question now is are you consistent with your paradigm dealing of scripture?
That's my 'textual criticism lesson' for the day.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2008 11:21:42 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
And yet that verse still seems to make it into every translation I've been able to check out. Why do you think that is?
For the same reason we're still taught that there were millions of Jewish people in the Exodus. Because people don't like changing the way they're thinking, even when that change just makes sense, even when that change is coming back to a more proper understanding of Scripture.
Incidentally, what translation have you seen that doesn't have a footnote, or some other indication, that verses 9 through the end are not found in many early manuscripts?
quote:
And the TRUE "autograph" of the entire book of Hebrews is who?
I'm not sure you're understanding my use of the term "autograph." What I mean is the original writing itself, not the original writer.
quote:
So would you also advocate throwing out that particular book too?
Not at all. My beef is not with authorship. It is with adding to the manuscript long after it was finished by the original writer.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 3:08:10 PM
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Him4all
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MrFribbles,
quote:
Incidentally, what translation have you seen that doesn't have a footnote, or some other indication, that verses 9 through the end are not found in many early manuscripts?
That's really the point I'm trying to make. The verse still makes it into all those translations, even though translators add that 'caveat' footnote. But I've also heard other scholars teach that it 'absolutely should' be in the bible, without a 'caveat' footnote. In all honesty I don't know 'mentally/scholastically' whether it should be or not. But for me personally, I have no problem with it being in scripture simply becasue it fits my experience. And it fit my experience before I knew it was in the bible. But for one who has never had that experience, of speaking in an unknown tongue, it is simply a troubling verse to deal with, for obvious reasons.
quote:
I'm not sure you're understanding my use of the term "autograph." What I mean is the original writing itself, not the original writer.
You're right, I wasn't understanding it like you meant it. And I don't think I've ever heard anyone use that term until you (?) mentioned it here some time back. But I would think my comment still applies under that associated umbrella which often gets quoted...that being, 'God has his hand on the bible' (implying it's right). And then we have the whole doctrine of 'infallability' which goes along with that same line of thinking. And I must admit, I personally struggle with those 2 perspectives of believing God can't/wouldn't allow an error. What's the authority for that belief?
quote:
Not at all. My beef is not with authorship. It is with adding to the manuscript long after it was finished by the original writer.
I do understand where you're coming from, and I agree. But the problem then becomes...by what authority do we start practicing our 'cut and paste' theology to the bible? It seems to me that it really boils down to 'experience' which often receives disdain here (but especially with this doctrine of tongues). But the fact is, experience changes your theology. I've known many...and have heard the testimonies of many more...who formerly disbelieved in 'tongues', but changed their theology the day they spoke in tongues. Scripture wasn't rewritten for them, but it was simply perceived differently because their testimony changed by virtue of experience. It has been said that 'Truth without an experience does not make a testimony'. And if one doesn't experience tongues then their testimony will simply relflect that, just like it has affected those who do speak in tongues.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 4:38:21 PM
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MrFribbles
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Him4All,
First, I just want to make sure my tone isn't misunderstood. If I'm coming across as negative, I apologize in advance. I hope to be understood as engaging in friendly discussion. The reason I'm saying this is because all too often, tone is misread when communicating through text alone.
Second, I'm afraid this is getting immensely off-topic, so I can't respond to many of your points. But if you want to continue the discussion of these verses being correctly placed, feel free to start a thread, perhaps in the Bible folder?
quote:
I have no problem with it being in scripture simply becasue it fits my experience. And it fit my experience before I knew it was in the bible. But for one who has never had that experience, of speaking in an unknown tongue, it is simply a troubling verse to deal with, for obvious reasons.
I think it's dangerous to decide our interpretation, let alone textual criticism, of Scripture based on our experiences. If I only went by what I felt, I wouldn't believe in eternal security, because there sure have been times I haven't felt saved. But Scripture doesn't give me the liberty of letting my experiences decide on God's truth.
When we start interpreting Scripture through the lenses of our experience, instead of the other way around, I feel we have elevated ourselves above the authority of God's word. We are, in effect, saying "God, I will fully listen and obey what you have told us in Scripture. ...As long as it matches up with what I've seen in my life."
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 10:09:59 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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MrFribbles,
No offence taken and 'apology in advance' was very good of you. We both know "tone" just doesn't type very well. 
I wouldn't have thought we were 'immensely' off topic but we can drop that point.
quote:
I think it's dangerous to decide our interpretation, let alone textual criticism, of Scripture based on our experiences.
I wasn't suggesting that. I was saying that too many have limited their spiritual walk by simply 'standing still' in a mental acknowledgement of a truth that has definite experiential realities attatched to it. That is my personal belief and I know it isn't accepted by all (especially godhead  ) But I think we'd both agree some truths/doctrines are 'experienced'. For example, even though the church has reduced communion to homeopathic doses of saltines and, for the last 500years has tried to turn the wine back into watery grapejuice, we still wouldn't consider having 'participated' in communion without them...would we? BTW, the saltine cracker/grapejuice thing is our churches....modern experience. 
quote:
I wouldn't believe in eternal security, because there sure have been times I haven't felt saved. I walked in those same 'feelings' before so I know what you mean. But in the years of my 'transformation' from Armenianist to Calvinist to 'Calmenianist' (sic) those feelings did confirm 'the truth' at one point of my 'misunderstanding' of salvation. Do you follow me here?
quote:
When we start interpreting Scripture through the lenses of our experience, instead of the other way around, I feel we have elevated ourselves above the authority of God's word. But the flipside is bringing scripture down to fit our lack of experience rather than lifting our experience to that of scripture. Personally I believe there are those who will never speak in tongues because they will never have the faith to believe for it. Their 'til I die' faith is in their unwavering 'interpretation' which lines up with their 'lack of an experience'. That is simply a tuff place for them to be in, to ever receive that which requires faith first IMO.
I think I'm going to 'check it in' for the night.
God be onya bro.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 11:39:16 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
But I think we'd both agree some truths/doctrines are 'experienced'.
Oh, certainly. No true faith can be purely mental, in my understanding. I'm just worried that some will justify certain beliefs based on experiences. It's a difficult balance to achieve. On the one hand, we cannot let our beliefs become so dry that they exist devoid of experience. But at the same time, history has shown us that some individuals have taken their experiences and allowed them to guide their theology, twisting Scripture to fit their understanding.
I'm certainly not saying you, or all those who advocate speaking in tongues, are doing this, though. It's just something we must be cautious of.
quote:
For example, even though the church has reduced communion to homeopathic doses of saltines and, for the last 500years has tried to turn the wine back into watery grapejuice, we still wouldn't consider having 'participated' in communion without them...would we?
Actually, I'm finding it harder and harder to feel as if I've really "done" communion with those elements, but that's 'cause I'm nit-picky like that. And really, heretical as it may sound, I've sometimes felt a stronger sense of "communion" when none of the physical elements were present, but a genuine spiritual element was, than in a church building full of people I had no community with (which is more a judgment on me than anything else, really).
quote:
But in the years of my 'transformation' from Armenianist to Calvinist to 'Calmenianist'
Ah, a fellow brother in the middle road. : )
quote:
those feelings did confirm 'the truth' at one point of my 'misunderstanding' of salvation. Do you follow me here?
Not especially. Perhaps you could elaborate further?
quote:
But the flipside is bringing scripture down to fit our lack of experience rather than lifting our experience to that of scripture. Personally I believe there are those who will never speak in tongues because they will never have the faith to believe for it. Their 'til I die' faith is in their unwavering 'interpretation' which lines up with their 'lack of an experience'. That is simply a tuff place for them to be in, to ever receive that which requires faith first IMO.
Where does it say someone must believe they can speak in tongues before they do? It seems to me that many people in Acts spoke in tongues with no prompting what-so-ever.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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