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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 8:29:06 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 428
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quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
Then Your argument is not with me, rather it is with the prophets Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Zephaniah, all of which make the "Stretch" to call it "the day of the Lord"
Again, you haven't begun to scratch the surface on what is included in the specific and unique Day of the Lord when The Lord will come to earth.
This is not to say that certain events in Israel's past before Christ's first Advent were not expressions of God's Wrath upon a rebellious people with whom He had showered with miracles and blessings...
It is to say that those events in Israel's past do not fulfill all the Day of the Lord prophecy which you have neglected to list!
Like I said before, you believe what you want to believe based on what you're willing to look at; and what doesn't fit: you dismiss or don't look at it at all.
Jesus' second Advent is still to come. You can say He came in A.D. 70, but the facts of history do not line up with the facts in prophecy. That's one of the reasons why Preterism is relegated to a single thread here... everyone else thinks you're totally off-base.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 11:28:36 AM
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SandyWings
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: SandyWings
And your Ezekiel story is wrong. John is told to measure the temple bc that temple was doomed for destruction! This is all figurative language.
John is told to measure a Temple.
Ezekiel records a man measuring a Temple.
The measurements he records are unlike any Temple which has been built.
It specifially is NOT the second Temple.
You say it is doomed for destruction...
Then you say it is all figurative language!
Do facts of prophecy trouble you?
Well just apply a little figurative cream and make those troubling passages disappear!
I said the temple in Revelation11 is the 2nd temple. I said Ezekiel's vision of a heavenly temple is figurative- a type in the language that the Jews would understand. To give hope to the remnant. But due to disobedience, when God returned the exiles back to the land, after they were scattered, they built only a smaller temple compared to Solomon's. The glory of the Lord had before let the temple. Ezekiel's vision & measurements of a temple were just that. The vision was to be fulfilled in the New Jerusalem. In Ezekiel 47, we see "the River of Life." the same wording & the fulfillment in Rev 22. In Ezekiel, the measurements as far as any physical temple, the prophetic plumbline measurement is used to describe the destruction of Solomon's temple by the Babylonians.
This same prophetic symbolism elsewhere in the OT.
In Lamentations 2:7-8
7The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast.
8The LORD hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.
Amos 7:7-9
7 Thus He showed me: Behold, the Lord stood on a wall made with a plumb line, with a plumb line in His hand. 8 And the LORD said to me, “Amos, what do you see?”
And I said, “A plumb line.”
Then the Lord said:
“ Behold, I am setting a plumb line
In the midst of My people Israel;
I will not pass by them anymore.
9 The high places of Isaac shall be desolate,
And the sanctuaries of Israel shall be laid waste.
I will rise with the sword against the house of Jeroboam.”
This measuring line or rod is used as a symbol of the destruction of places. (See also Psalm 60:6; Isaiah 28:17)
Now in Revelation, John is given a measuring rod. He is told not to measure the "outer court. " Why? Bc the outer court was never holy. It was sacrilegious. It belonged to the pagan gentiles.
But what was once "the holy city" with the temple for the Jews in God's eyes- this would be trodden down by the gentiles for the 42 months.
This is the same as Daniel 12:7
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. (emph. mine)
So are you understanding some of the use of the prophetic parallel language?
The prophetic vision by John in Rev 11 was fulfilled literally in history.
Now if you want to argue your hyper-literal only theology, go back to my question. Will you see a Woman riding a Beast with ten heads? (Rev 17)
Literally? Answer that question- I challenge you. 
Have a pleasant day!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 2:59:20 PM
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parousia70
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Funny how you're totally unable to show
how all of the prophecy of the end-times
matches up against history - isn't it?
Oh,
It's not that we can't show it, it's that you don't accept it when we do show it. I'm confident our readers can see the difference.
But We'll continue to demonstrate it as long as you call us to account.
Like I said, you make it too easy
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 3:14:24 PM
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parousia70
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
I never said that an increase in earthquakes fulfilled prophecy.
Sure you did. You cited todays earthquakes as proof that the 1st century earthquakes were not the fulfillment of Matt 24:7 But I understand the damage it would do if you admitted it.
That's OK, Like I said, it's just too fun to refute you:
quote:
Funny how you're totally unable to show
how all of the prophecy of the end-times
matches up against history - isn't it?
YAWN.... if you insist.......
Matt 24:1-3 -- Christ announces that the second Temple, God's dwelling place among mankind, would soon be destroyed and earthly Jerusalem made desolate. The Jewish followers of Christ, as citizens of the Old Covenant dispensation, inquire as to the future of their nation, having been informed that the end of that age would be accompanied by the annihilation of the entire Mosaic Temple system and state. These disasters came to pass in accordance with the prophecies of Christ: The Jews launched the Great Revolt in AD 66 under messianic king Menahem (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, 2:17) and set fire to the Holy Temple at the desolation of Jerusalem at AD 70 (Josephus, Wars, 6:2:9; 6:3:5; 6:4:5; 6:6:2). At the end of this tribulation, Roman armies took apart the Jerusalem Temple stone-by-stone to get the gold that had melted down between the cracks (during the fires) and to remove the headquarters of the Jewish revolt. The Temple vessels and utensils were then plundered and taken to Rome by General Titus (Josephus, Wars, 7:5:5-7).
Matt 24:4 -- Shaken by the prospect of the destruction of their glorious Temple, and knowing from the destruction of Solomon's Temple 600 years prior that such calamities mark God's visitation to them (Jer 7:1-20,29-34), the apostles ask, "When will these things be?" and "What sign signifies thy coming at end of the age?" The questioning highlights the fact that the parousia and the end of the Old Testamental age would be discerned and comprehended in the passing of calamitous signs.
Matt 24:4-5 -- Christ predicts the intensification of false messianic movements within Israel and around the empire. First-century examples: Dositheus the Samaritan (Origen: Contra Celsum, VI, ii; Hom. xxv in Lucam; Contra Celsum, I, lvii), Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24) who was deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Herod Agrippa (Acts 12:20-23), Menahem (Josephus: War of the Jews; 2.433-450). Under the government of Felix, deceivers rose up daily in Judea and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the Almighty. (Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death.) During this period (52-58 AD) arose a celebrated Egyptian deceiver (Acts 21:38), who collected thirty-thousand followers and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling them that from there they would see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison and their obtaining the sovereignty of the city (Josephus: War of the Jews, 2.259-263; Antiquities of the Jews 20.169-171). Such messiahs and magicians were often as powerful in the display of miracles as were the apostles (see: Simon of Samaria in Acts 8:9-11; Apollonius of Tyana). Partial list of first-century false messiahs: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BC); Simon of Peraea (4 BC); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BC); Judas, the Galilean (6 AD); the Samaritan prophet (36 AD); King Herod Agrippa (44 AD); Theudas (? AD); the Egyptian prophet (52-58 AD); anonymous prophet (59 AD); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 AD); John of Gischala (67-70 AD); Vespasian (67 AD); Simon bar Giora (69-70 AD). Related link: Livius.org - Messiah Overview.
Matt 24:6-8 -- Jesus promises His apostles that they will have famines, wars and rumors concerning wars. This prophecy had special significance during that period of the great Pax Romana ("Roman Peace"), when the outbreak of these wars transpired: Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." For more on wars of this time and false prophets, see: Josephus: Antiquities, 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars, 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2. As for famines, Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).
Matt 24:9-10 -- Jesus foretells the persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero, who falsely blamed the Christian sect for burning up to half of Rome. This persecution went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was precisely 3.5 years, from 64-68AD. It is essential to note that Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23, a passage which all scholars assign to a first-century fulfillment. Jesus predicts the civil wars of the Jews (Matt 24:10; 10:21), and the great Jewish civil war occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1).
Matt 24:11-13 -- Jesus teaches more on false prophets, emphasizing their key role in the delusion of the nation, as per 2 Thess 2:7-11 (see also: Antiquities, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). Josephus says false prophets were related to the messianic movement of the seditious Zealots, who promised a redemption for the Jewish rebels at the Temple but were met with total destruction at the hand of the Romans. In Matthew 24:13 Jesus holds out hope for the believers who might endure to the end. (Verses 24:12-13 are parallel to Matthew 10:21-22.)
Matt 24:14 -- A key sign of the end of the Jewish age was the gospel's rapid proclamation to the whole world (Greek: "oikoumene" = "inhabited earth;" "Roman Empire" -- Strong's # 3625). This sign was rapidly fulfilled in the apostles' generation, especially through Paul's ministry (Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16; Acts 13:47). The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire (compare the geographic boundaries of the "whole world" in Matt 24:14 with that of the same "whole world" in Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23). The use of the Greek word "oikoumene" (Strong's #3625) in Matt 24:14 speaks of the Roman Empire -- the "whole world" ("oikoumene") of the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient Roman Empire (see: Luke 2:1). Early Church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Eusebius, and Chrysostom said Matthew 24:14 as fulfilled in the apostles' generation. The immediate and rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire Empire signified a covenantal shift to a new dispensation wherein all nations participate equally in the blessing of Abraham through faith (Gen 12:1-3; Gal 3:6-9,14,29).
Matt 24:15-20 -- Christ tells of His nation's Great Tribulation (cf. Luke 21:20-23). The famous historic account of the exodus of the Jerusalem Church in AD 66-67 is recorded by Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History, iii.v.). The Judean remnant saw the armies of Cestius Gallus in 66AD surrounding Jerusalem (and Vespasian's shortly thereafter; compare to the parallel account in Luke 21:20-24). At the same time, The Temple was captured by the Jewish Zealots as Paul had foretold (2 Thess 2:4-7). Messiah-King Menahem and the Zealots turned the temple into a military outpost, defiled it with murderous blood, and made evil of their own high priest while launching the Great Revolt. During this time, the daily sacrifices offered to Rome were ended, which was a declaration of war against the Roman Empire. These events signaled the faithful Jewish remnant to flee according to our Lord's commands to them in Matthew 24:16-20 and Luke 21:20:23. Just after they escaped the city, the Zealots seized the city, guarded the gates, and prevented all escape. Eusebius writes, "But the members of the Church in Jerusalem, having been commanded before the war in accordance with a certain oracle given by revelation to the men of repute there to depart from Jerusalem and to inhabit a certain city of Peraea called Pella, all the believers in Christ in Jerusalem went thither; and when now the saints had abandoned both the royal metropolis itself and the whole land of Judaea, the vengeance of God finally overtook the lawless persecutors of Christ and His apostles." At the end of the great tribulation the Romans made sacrifices to their standards at the Temple (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).
Matt 24:21-24 -- Jesus tells more about Israel's Great Tribulation (also: Luke 21:20-24; Josephus, Wars of the Jews, entire). The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the Great Tribulation. Josephus declares that the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (see: Matthew 24:21). Josephus writes, "the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" (Wars of the Jews, preface, section 1; Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2/Jer 46:10; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress upon this people" (Luke 21:23; see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22:1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; 6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19; see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24; see also Josephus, Wars, preface, section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44; see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).
Matt 24:25 -- Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (as also in Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things Jesus is describing come to pass (not some distant future generation). By comparing Matt 24:25 with similar statements in John 14:28, John 13:19 and John 16:4, we see that they all signal events in the apostles' near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it could be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.
Matt 24:26-28 -- Jesus forewarns them not to follow false messianic movements in the desert or in the Temple chambers, which had precise first-century relevance for them (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). The desolation is like lightning over the whole land from east to west, and where the carcasses are strewn, there will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Roman eagle ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and the verses following. All this came to pass in 66-70AD (see also: Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).
Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf. Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. The Parousia of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period: the angels, voices, and glorious brightness of God are witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded in Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11). All torah-observing, Messiah-rejecting Jews were gathered into Jerusalem from all over the world at Passover Feast in 67AD and were shut in by the Zealot and Roman armies. Now, locked in the giant furnace of the city, millions were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:40-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31; Matt 21:40-45). It is no surprise that rabbis today call 70AD the "end of biblical Judaism." Indeed, the faithful and newly consummated Church-bride was gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church-nation of Christ, thus fully built and established, is never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true Faith of the Living God and the Holy Nation. Christ's followers were destined to occupy all nations to gather the elect from all peoples into Abraham's blessing (Gal 3:7-9.14,16,26-29; Gen 12:1-3). The teachings and prophecies of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated by this historic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 66-70.
Matt 24:32-33 -- Jesus gives a parable about trees and their seasons (Luke 21:29-31). The shooting forth of leaves signals that summer is now near at hand. Jesus applies this natural phenomenon to his apostles and the season of the end of the age: "So likewise you too [the apostles], when you shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the door" (cf. James 5:8-9; Rev 3:20). In Luke's account, Christ's promise to the apostles is as follows: "So also you, when you see these things come to pass know that the kingdom of God is near at hand" (Lk 21:31).
Matt 24:33-34 -- In this passage, the climax of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus promises his apostles that they will see all these signs come to pass as well as His glorious return in their generation: "So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
quote:
Earthquakes are a very important part of prophecy, and the ones which are foretold cannot be pegged to ones which happened in the past.
Sure they can. I just did.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 3:22:03 PM
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parousia70
Posts: 167
Joined: 5/29/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Now if you want to say there are no animal sacrifices in the Millennium, then you're going to have to take that up with Ezekiel. He describes a man measuring a Temple unlike anything that has ever existed in history. John was sent to measure the Temple which will be built during the one 'seven.' Coincidence? I think not. That Temple, which has not ever been -yet- will be used for future sacrifices as well in accordance with the Law and as changed as dictated by God to Ezekiel.
This statement, above any others of yours, should absolutely solidify your error in the minds of any of our readers who may still have their doubts about you.
This teaching of yours that the Glorified Christ will REQUIRE Christians to stand before him and render Blood animal sacrifices directly to Him for atonement of their sins renders His work on the cross as null and void.
The teaching of a reinstitution of this blood sacrificial system is a rebuke against the blood of Jesus Christ, and a cause for anathema according to the apostles. A return to this system is a falling away from salvation, according to the apostles. A falling from the grace of Jesus Christ.
Really folks, do you need to hear any more to make up your minds about this fella?
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 3:23:34 PM
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parousia70
Posts: 167
Joined: 5/29/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
That's one of the reasons why Preterism is relegated to a single thread here... everyone else thinks you're totally off-base.
Thats what the 1st century, torah observing Jews said about the Apostles. ;-)
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 5:09:24 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 428
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
You cited todays earthquakes as proof that the 1st century earthquakes were not the fulfillment of Matt 24:7
No, I said that the smattering of earthquakes in no way proves what Jesus said was fulfilled. In any given time period you're going to find certain devastating earthquakes...
The point is, and the one you're still neglecting because it hurts your case so much is that the specific earthquakes which are associated with the Day of the Lord, haven't happened yet. But it's fun to watch you spin in place all the same.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 6:20:44 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 428
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quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
YAWN.... if you insist.......
I hope this doesn't bore you too much !
quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:1-3 -- Christ announces that the second Temple, God's dwelling place among mankind, would soon be destroyed and earthly Jerusalem made desolate.
Well, you added that last bit in on your own. Jesus never says Jerusalem would be made desolate. It was the Temple Mount and its buildings which is referred to in the verse. In the previous verse Jesus warned the Jews that their house would be made desolate. That house again may be thought of as the Temple. There is a possibility that you could extend the meaning of house to all of Jerusalem, but that is not what Jesus said explicitly.
Second of all, the opening to the Olivet Discourse just confirms the prophecy Gabriel gave Daniel. Now Daniel is not counted as a major prophet by the Jews because he prophesized while in exile in Babylon. In fact, in the Tanuch, Daniel is listed between Ester and Ezra and not among the prophets at all.
That prophecy in Daniel 9:26 establishes a gap between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven.'
quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:4 -- "When will these things be?" and "What sign signifies thy coming at end of the age?" The questioning highlights the fact that the parousia and the end of the Old Testamental age would be discerned and comprehended in the passing of calamitous signs.
The Old Testmental Age? You're starting to sound like the Dispensationalist that Sandy admires so much!
No, the end of the age was already an established principle of theology even in Jewish times. After this age will be what we have come to call the Millennium since that was revealed to John. The idea of the end of the age and the peace that follows after that was established 500 years before through the prophet Isaiah.
Notice too, that Jesus does not answer when the Temple will be torn down - but when He will return.
quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:4-5 -- Christ predicts the intensification of false messianic movements within Israel and around the empire. First-century examples:
John notes a multitude of false Christs. Still there is the anti-Christ who is foretold. He has not come yet, or he may be present, but he hasn't clawed his way up to the top because there presently isn't the final formation of the Roman beast to attain. However, the first three beasts are in place to be welded into the fourth as time slowly marches to its inevitable end of this age.
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ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:6-8 -- Jesus promises His apostles that they will have famines, wars and rumors concerning wars.
The funny thing is for all the wars you list; they all happened during the Pax Romana as you start out with acknowledging.
Again, like with earthquakes in diverse places which we can see are more diverse than the smattering Sandy gave us, famines, wars and rumors of wars are on-going.
This brings up another fact in prophecy which solidly refutes any notion of Preterism - partial or full - war will continue until the end. That is a fact established by Gabriel in Daniel 9:26.
As war has been a continual state from Jesus' time even in the Pax Romana to now with some 30 different conflicts being actively fought today while we are in leisure on the Sabbath - the end has still not arrived!
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ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:9-10 -- Jesus foretells the persecution of the early church by the Jews and later...
Some of the greatest times of persecution were right before Christianity was absorbed by the Roman beast in the fourth century. This happened significantly after your case.
In fact, by saying that Nero's persecution lasted exactly three and a half years actually proves it wasn't the Great Tribulation because Jesus said the Great Tribulation would be shortened and so could not run the entire second half of the one 'seven.'
But just by saying A.D. 64-68 was the Church's Great Tribulation, you provide an internal error to your eschatology because you say it is Israel's and it goes on from A.D. 66-70.
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ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:11-13 -- Jesus teaches more on false prophets, emphasizing their key role in the delusion of the nation...
We already established there were false prophets, but as this also parallels the first four Seals of Revelation, the real missing link is what is the first horseman? It is not an anti-Christ in the normal way of a man.
I'll let you spin some more on this one though !
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ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:14 -- A key sign of the end of the Jewish age was the gospel's rapid proclamation to the whole world (Greek: "oikoumene" = "inhabited earth;" "Roman Empire" -- Strong's # 3625). This sign was rapidly fulfilled in the apostles' generation, especially through Paul's ministry (Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16; Acts 13:47).
In Romans, Paul never says that was realized.
In Colossians: "Paul is now led to develop the thought of the progress of the gospel in the world. This is brought out in such a way as to suggest that this, as well as the report of the Colossians' welfare, was for Paul a basis for thankfulness. Two ideas are stressed: First, the gospel is a fruit-bearing power wherever it is preached. Perhaps Paul means that the ever-widening scope and deepening influence of the gospel on its recipients is a mark of its authenticity. "All over the world" is not to be taken in strict literalness, as if Paul were saying that the gospel has been preached in every single place. He uses a deliberate exaggeration. Actually the gospel had spread amazingly in the years between Pentecost and the time when Paul wrote this letter and his language, though an overstatement, dramatically calls attention to this." --Expositor's Bible Commentary.
In 1st Timothy: was preached among the nations; was believed on in the world. Those statement are true literally, but they do not indicate the Great Commission had been fulfilled.
In Acts, Paul is quoting Isaiah 49:6. He is not saying the Gospel was preached throughout the world.
Where was China in all this? How about the American Indians? How about India and South East Asia? What about Africa?
No, Jesus' prophecy that the end would follow the eternal Gospel message is shown in prophecy in Revelation:
REV 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."
And in perfect agreement with Jesus' prophecy, it happens right before the Harvest in the same parallel account within Revelation! God will do for us what we cannot and have not been able to do even though the Church has long sought to fulfill the Great Commission.
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ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:15-20 -- Christ tells of His nation's Great Tribulation (cf. Luke 21:20-23). The famous historic account of the exodus of the Jerusalem Church in AD 66-67 is recorded by Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History, iii.v.).
Whoa!
Where is the start of the one 'seven?'
Where is the Abomination? You forgot the midpoint Abomination!
The Great Tribulation cannot begin until the one 'seven' begins!
When the one 'seven' is over, so is this age!
And as war is STILL continuing to this day, this age is STILL on-going!
No, you can sit and spin a tale all you like, but you don't have any facts to back up your silly assertions that this was that and that was this.
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ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:21-24 -- Jesus tells more about Israel's Great Tribulation
Internal inconsistency time!
As noted above... you now have multiple Great Tribulations for two sets of people which do not overlap AND you have failed to say what started the one 'seven' AND you cannot point to the Abomination which punctuates the midpoint and so begins the Great Tribulation!
Boy this is fun!
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ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:25 -- Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (as also in Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things Jesus is describing come to pass (not some distant future generation).
Says you.
However, those things were not experienced by them!
So the generation that sees those things come to pass will not pass away before the end of the age!
And war is still continuing if you hadn't noticed. Welcome to the same old age we've been in for two thousand years now!
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ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:26-28 -- Jesus forewarns them not to follow false messianic movements in the desert or in the Temple chambers, which had precise first-century relevance for them (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). The desolation is like lightning over the whole land from east to west, and where the carcasses are strewn, there will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war).
That's a stretch. Eagles are not specifically mentioned in the Greek. aetos can mean eagle, kite, or vulture; but eagles are not normally carrion eaters.
Rather this is a condition brought on by the Great Tribulation when people like you and Sandy will be running around saying "What is happening to us?" "Where is Jesus?"
And the carcasses are a reference here to an inquiry as to where the believers will be going made by the Disciples in Luke 17:37. This itself goes back to the process Paul uses to describe the Rapture where people will suddenly change or better yet in answer to the Disciple's question -exchange- their mortal bodies for immortal ones!
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ORIGINAL: parousia70
Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times.
Now you sound like the magician in the Wizard of Oz saying "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
The Sun/moon/star sign is God's indellible signature of the miraculous which puts His thumbprint on the Day of the Lord which, along with the Angels making their announcements to the world that His Wrath is soon to follow - so that the whole world will be a witness to Christ's parousia!
It is a real event, put in figurative language which expresses the whole event better than just saying what will happen. However, in verses in like Ezekiel 32:7; we can see how God is going to make the sun look like sackcloth. Indeed, the whole Earth will be as in mourning without any sunshine!
The parable is interesting and I've already exposed the fallacy you attempt to perpetuate.
You need to show:
1. When the one 'seven' started.
2. The specific and unique Abomination which punctuates its midpoint.
3. How the Great Tribulation is shortened and whom is it for.
Try again! CYA!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 6:46:15 PM
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sooner
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/4/2005
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ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
You want to say that since the same word is used to describe something which happened at that moment in Acts must therefore convey the same immediate action in prophecy is not a valid comparison.
The source you used said that "en tachei" meant swift or rapid. I showed you that it has other meanings which your source conveniently chose not to disclose in order to trick the readers into believing it could not mean an action that was about to happen. Dishonest!
You have yet to comment on what you think the meanings are in the three verses in Acts.
There are many instances where the Judgment of God is said to be swift, but the fact is that His Judgment (aside from the Flood which won't be repeated) still hasn't occurred.
Swift is not the same as "near" and "at hand". More trickery. Be honest, if you were a 1st century reader of Revelation 1:1,3, what would you think the meaning was?.
To say that God's Judgment is still in the future contradicts the immediate aspect of prophecy is not substantiated either! Remember what Peter wrote:
1Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.
Nor is God a deciever of men.
Remember too that Gabriel said to Daniel that "desolations have been decreed"! (Dan 9:26)
God decreed the outcome of the end-times before any of the seventy 'sevens' had even begun!
So? What has that do do with His words of "near" and "quickly"?
The rest deleted for its irrelevance.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 6:49:45 PM
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sooner
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
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ORIGINAL: parousia70
This teaching of yours that the Glorified Christ will REQUIRE Christians to stand before him and render Blood animal sacrifices directly to Him for atonement of their sins
Whoa there Nelly!
Who put the burr under your saddle?
I never said Christians had to render sacrifices to atone for their sins during the Millennium!
Then you better reread those passages in Ezekiel that deal with the Temple. The sacrifices are for sin atonement!!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 7:05:35 PM
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sooner
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/4/2005
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Second of all, the opening to the Olivet Discourse just confirms the prophecy Gabriel gave Daniel. Now Daniel is not counted as a major prophet by the Jews because he prophesized while in exile in Babylon.
Do you even know why Prophets were called Major or Minor?
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 8:16:50 PM
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sooner
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/4/2005
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ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
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ORIGINAL: sooner
Do you even know why Prophets were called Major or Minor?
The subject is Preterism.
Theology Jeopardy is in another whole category.
In other words, you don't know where the terms come from.
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The funny thing is for all the wars you list; they all happened during the Pax Romana as you start out with acknowledging.
Yea, that’s why it would be a sign! It wouldn’t be a sign if it wasn’t during a time of peace.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
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In Romans, Paul never says that was realized.
And here I thought you took the bible literally:
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
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In Colossians: "Paul is now led to develop the thought of the progress of the gospel in the world. This is brought out in such a way as to suggest that this, as well as the report of the Colossians' welfare, was for Paul a basis for thankfulness. Two ideas are stressed: First, the gospel is a fruit-bearing power wherever it is preached. Perhaps Paul means that the ever-widening scope and deepening influence of the gospel on its recipients is a mark of its authenticity. "All over the world" is not to be taken in strict literalness, as if Paul were saying that the gospel has been preached in every single place. He uses a deliberate exaggeration. Actually the gospel had spread amazingly in the years between Pentecost and the time when Paul wrote this letter and his language, though an overstatement, dramatically calls attention to this." --Expositor's Bible Commentary.
Hey if impugning the character of the inspired Paul is your defense, you have lost the argument already.
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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Where was China in all this? How about the American Indians? How about India and South East Asia? What about Africa?
Hello McFly…. They are not in the context of the world to which Jesus and Paul were speaking. Unless you wish to call Paul a liar. Read your own commentary:
"All over the world" is not to be taken in strict literalness, as if Paul were saying that the gospel has been preached in every single place. He uses a deliberate exaggeration.
Though even they, because of their pre-suppositions, can’t understand it was not an exaggeration but exactly the context that Jesus had in mind.
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As far as "soon" and "near" you still haven't grasped what I am saying which is perfectly alright. Furthermore, you resort to baseless charges which sadly enough, are not beneficial or edifying.
I understand exactly what you’re saying, it the same thing Hal Lindsey has been saying for 40 years. Near and soon only mean near and soon when it fits into your eschatology. I bet when you and Hagee and Ice and Lindsey read this verse, near actually means near:
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.
Strange you claim not to be a dispensationalist yet all you do is cut and paste from Dispies. It is like someone claiming not to be Reformed in their soteriology yet quotes John Calvin, John Knox, John Gill and John Piper in their discussion of the subject.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 9:35:59 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 428
Joined: 10/5/2006
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ORIGINAL: sooner
Yea, that’s why it would be a sign! It wouldn’t be a sign if it wasn’t during a time of peace.
A sign? Come on...
No, there are two points to my noting the terribly great war you Preterists like to point to was judged so insignificant as to not reasonably disturb the general peace of Rome!
First - the battering of Jerusalem was nothing like major conquests. In fact, it was rather pitiful. The Romans totally out-gunned the Jews and systematically tore down their defenses, but the rebellious faction was so ardent in their cause they refused to admit the cause was lost.
Instead, they became petty tyrants and increased the suffering of the citizenry in all the horrible ways Josephus describes.
Secondly - even during peaceful times, there are wars.
War continues.
That is IN prophecy for this age until the end - FACT.
And it is part and parcel with our history - FACT.
You can say it's all been done already and it still won't make it so. You can not conclusively show how all of prophecy was fulfilled much less just what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 9:46:56 PM
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