|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 8:54:55 AM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1492
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
realady,
This is from an Easter sermon preached by Joel Osteen. NONE of it is true. It is almost word for word, theology espoused by those in the WoF cult:
"And the third thing, because of all of what Jesus accomplished in the Resurrection; you and I have power and authority over the devil and demon forces. I can imagine when Jesus bowed His head and died on that cross, that Satan and all those demons they gathered in Hell for a great victory celebration. I can imagine it looked something like the victory party in the locker room after the Super Bowl. You can see them giving high five's and jumping around. Shouting with great excitement, We did it! We did it! I told you we could defeat Him! Now we're in control. Now we can do whatever we want. And can't you hear Satan laugh sarcastically and say to his demons, Aren't you glad you followed me now? Aren't you glad you revolted out of the heavens? I told you it'd be worth it.
Can’t you see Jesus looking right into Satan's eyes and saying, “Satan, I hate to spoil your victory party, but I think you're celebrating a little bit too soon”? You may have knocked me down, but you sure didn't knock me out. And it's not over until I say it's over. Satan says, Listen, Jesus, you're on my turf now. You don't have a chance down here. You're surrounded by my demons. We're going to tear you apart. And Jesus just smiles and says, “Go ahead, Satan, make my day!” (Congregation applauds) Jesus says, “Look, Satan, I'm down here to take care of business. I'm ready to do battle. I don't want to be here any longer than I have to be because it stinks down here.
The Bible indicates that for three days, Jesus went into the very depths of hell. Right into the enemy's own territory. And He did battle with Satan face to face. Can you imagine what a show down that was? It was good vs. evil. Right vs. wrong. Holiness vs. filth. Here are the two most powerful forces in the universe have come together to do battle for the first time in history. But thank God. The Bible says, “Satan was no match for our Champion.” This was no contest. (Congregation applauds).
Jesus crushed Satan’s head with His foot. He bruised his head. And He once and for all, forever defeated and dethroned and demoralized our enemy. One translation says, “He paralyzed him and rendered him powerless”. But thank God. He didn't even stop there. He went over and ripped the keys of death and hell out of Satan’s hands. And He grabbed Satan by the nap of his neck and He began to slowly drag him down through the corridors of Hell. All beat up and bruised because He wanted to make sure that every single demon saw very clearly that Jesus was indeed the undisputed Champion of all time! Amen?
The Bible says in Colossians 2:15 that God “disarmed the principalities and powers ranged against us and he made a bold display and a public example of Satan's defeat.”
(Joel Osteen Sermon #CS_002-4-23-00)
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 9:04:10 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5231
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
|
the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie.....
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 9:53:12 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5231
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
|
*goodness*
When will people understand that there is such a thing as a lie?
Jerry, it is pretty rude to come in here and not even care to address the concerns brothers and sisters in Christ have correctly and biblically presented.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 9:54:33 AM
|
|
|
relady
Posts: 964
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
|
Well, the basic doctrine is certainly embellished to tell a story, I'll give you that. But still, no where does he ever say Jesus HAD to do this to complete his work. No where does he ever even indicated that Jesus WORK was not completed on the cross. He simply takes a doctrine, which is quite common especially in Catholicism and Pentecostal denominations, and embellishes it. I'm not a huge fan of doing that, but it still doesn't change the basics of who Jesus is, nor does it teach a "different" Jesus, so I am open to them keeping this belief with out calling him a false teacher or his followers lost on their way to hell.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 11:23:51 AM
|
|
|
cwb
Posts: 154
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
|
Seems to concensus that JO doesn't preach the Word. And I agree.
But is 80 pages of criticism necessary?
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 11:34:14 AM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1492
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
Well, the basic doctrine is certainly embellished to tell a story, I'll give you that. But still, no where does he ever say Jesus HAD to do this to complete his work. No where does he ever even indicated that Jesus WORK was not completed on the cross. He simply takes a doctrine, which is quite common especially in Catholicism and Pentecostal denominations, and embellishes it. I'm not a huge fan of doing that, but it still doesn't change the basics of who Jesus is, nor does it teach a "different" Jesus, so I am open to them keeping this belief with out calling him a false teacher or his followers lost on their way to hell.
Embellished? That is not embellishment, it is an outright LIE. Let me highlight a few segements that are complete lies and denigrate the deity of Jesus Christ:
"Can’t you see Jesus looking right into Satan's eyes and saying, “Satan, I hate to spoil your victory party, but I think you're celebrating a little bit too soon”? You may have knocked me down, but you sure didn't knock me out. And it's not over until I say it's over. Satan says, Listen, Jesus, you're on my turf now. You don't have a chance down here. You're surrounded by my demons. We're going to tear you apart. And Jesus just smiles and says, “Go ahead, Satan, make my day!” (Congregation applauds) Jesus says, “Look, Satan, I'm down here to take care of business. I'm ready to do battle. I don't want to be here any longer than I have to be because it stinks down here."
1. Jesus told the thief on the cross that today he would be with Jesus in Paradise.
2. Jesus NEVER went to hell
3. Jesus NEVER was face to face with the devil
4. Jesus NEVER did any "battle" with satan!
Everything in this paragraph above is a LIE, bordering on HERESY!
"The Bible indicates that for three days, Jesus went into the very depths of hell. Right into the enemy's own territory. And He did battle with Satan face to face. Can you imagine what a show down that was? It was good vs. evil. Right vs. wrong. Holiness vs. filth. Here are the two most powerful forces in the universe have come together to do battle for the first time in history. But thank God. The Bible says, “Satan was no match for our Champion.” This was no contest. (Congregation applauds)."
1. Jesus NEVER went to the very depths of hell.
2. Jesus NEVER did battle with satan face to face.
"He went over and ripped the keys of death and hell out of Satan’s hands."
NOWHERE does Scripture say “Jesus took the keys of hell and death from Satan.” This is a false word faith teaching. Here’s what the Scripture says in Rev. 1:18: “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Where does it say he took them? He already possessed them.
"And He grabbed Satan by the nap of his neck and He began to slowly drag him down through the corridors of Hell. All beat up and bruised because He wanted to make sure that every single demon saw very clearly that Jesus was indeed the undisputed Champion of all time! Amen?"
As stated previously:
1. Jesus NEVER went to the very depths of hell.
2. Jesus NEVER did battle with satan face to face.
As you can see relady, this is not "embellishing", it is out and out LYING and PERVERTING God's Word.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 11:34:17 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 657
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Seems to concensus that JO doesn't preach the Word. And I agree.
But is 80 pages of criticism necessary?
And why not? 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 11:45:20 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5231
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Seems to concensus that JO doesn't preach the Word. And I agree.
But is 80 pages of criticism necessary?
When you have self-professing Christians saying Joel's teaching are fine and dandy? No, it is not enough.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 12:11:43 PM
|
|
|
colliefan
Posts: 2459
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
But still, no where does he ever say Jesus HAD to do this to complete his work.
As a part of His last words on the cross, Jesus cried out "It, is finished." Meaning that the debt of sin had been paid in full.
Matthew 16:21 - 23 (ESV) 21£From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord!£ This shall never happen to you.” 23But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance£ to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
Apparently, he doesn't preach "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." He adds to the gospel.
Revelation 22:18 - 19 (ESV) 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
< Message edited by colliefan -- 2/1/2008 12:20:17 PM >
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 2:55:40 PM
|
|
|
drcain
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX.
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Joel Osteen
The Bible indicates that for three days, Jesus went into the very depths of hell. Right into the enemy's own territory. My oh my. I remember Joel saying those things; I saw part of this service on the TV. Joel did a very good job of trivializing Jesus work on the cross. For those that still think Joel is a Christian, consider what Jesus said.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Book titled "Gospel of Matthew"
25:41 "Then [on the day of judgment, God] will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
*edited [] for clarity by drcain
Unless you want to debate this fact, we can see and agree that God has prepared Hell (notice the capitalized word) for the devil and the devils angels. Therefore, the devil is NOT in Hell at this moment and that means Jesus could NOT have gone into Hell to do those things that Joel is suggesting.
The devil is NOT in hell (notice the lower cased word). That word "hell" denotes death. This is one of the unfortunate mistranslations that the KJV uses by translating the different Greek words like "death, the grave, the pit, the Pit, the depths, etc." into one English word "hell". The word "hell" has many different meanings attached to it. Here are some examples:
Matthew 5:22b "But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire." Used here, Hell is just what Jesus meant: that place prepared for all those that are lost.
Mathew 5:29b (also in verse 30b) "for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell." This "hell" refers to a pit that is used to discard old animal carcasses and garbage. A person in the city would avoid this pit and let the slaves go there so they could avoid the nasty smells and sickness of the place.
2 Peter 2:4 " For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;" Paul is mentioning a "hell" here that is a place; but NOT the grave, the pit, or Hell. This is where the RCC and Joel got the misinformation that he and they preach. Look at verse 9: "then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment."
This use of the word "hell" is that place where those that have died in their sin are kept until the day of judgment. The devil is not there either.
Where is the devil then? The Bible tells us the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8b
Sorry for injecting a bit of Bible lesson into this. I felt the need to give one in hopes that those who want to support Joel could at least see for themselves just where and how Joel is wrong. I know that this has been done here in the earlier post. To look back and see Bible verses being slung around wildly (in some cases) saddens my spirit. So I wanted to give a bit of teaching too.
Look for yourselves, don't just take my word for it. Look at the scripture and compare it to what Joel is saying, it is what we are supposed to do. If Billy Graham himself told me that "such and such is in the Bible", I would say "hold on there Billy, this is something I want to check out for myself." Why won’t Joel's followers??
< Message edited by drcain -- 2/1/2008 3:02:01 PM >
_____________________________
David
What? Me worry?
Matthew 6:34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 3:23:50 PM
|
|
|
drcain
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX.
Status: offline
|
And another thing. About the "quote" Joel uses?quote:
ORIGINAL: Joel Osteen
The Bible says in Colossians 2:15 that God “disarmed the principalities and powers ranged against us and he made a bold display and a public example of Satan's defeat.”
Here is the verse as written in the KJV. "Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it."
What is the "them" refered to here? Out of context it appears that the "them" are the principalities and powers. However, I read the whole letter in it's entirity for it's context. The "them" refered to are the 10 commandments and Levitical regulations that were used by the principalities and powers to condemn the Jews that were not observing all the customs and rules set there after they began following Jesus.
Just look at the next verse. So (or "Therefore", or "Now that He has done this") let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths *() is my editorial work
The Law gives strength to sin, and the regulations show that by works we are still lost. Jesus disarmed those principalities and powers of their .... um.... power.... by paying the price demanded by the Law and the regulations. The price is death.
Study up folks. Lots to learn and time is short.
< Message edited by drcain -- 2/3/2008 9:31:19 AM >
_____________________________
David
What? Me worry?
Matthew 6:34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 3:46:05 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5231
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
|
Awesome stuff - which is why context is king! And because so many people do not read/study their Bibles - they fall for the lies of these Word of Faith hucksters.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 4:18:54 PM
|
|
|
figmentPez
Posts: 2427
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
Well, several places in the Bible where the word "Hell" is used, should be Hades or Sheol. So it goes both ways. The words, unfortunately, have been interchangeably used until recently and they were used that way in early Bible translations. The early Christians believed in Hades, which was where Christ allegedly went.
It is a murky enough doctrine that I'm willing to let people have their own beliefs. It is also a very Catholic doctrine so I do understand that some people don't accept it. However, I certainly don't consider a preacher/teacher a "false teacher" for believing it. It's a pretty common belief throughout Christianity. Common enough that it should not warrant the defamation going on on this thread.
Good grief, we're getting very off-topic. First, you can't impose a modern definition of hell upon older translations. The original definition of hell was synonymous with Hades or Sheol. Arguments about if references to eternal torment should have been Gehenna instead of Hell are for another thread. As for early Christians believing in "Hades" that's not a fair statement. Early Christians did not believe in the god Hades, nor did they believe in the Greek version of the underworld. They did however, use the word Hades when writing in Greek to refer to the realm of the dead. And there is no "allegedly" about Jesus Christ dying. Jesus Christ really and truly was DEAD for three days.
Matthew 12:40
for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Ephesians 4:9
Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
These verses are a reference to Jesus Christ being dead. The Latin version of the Apostle's creed uses the word inferos. Now, I'm not up on Latin conjugation, but inferi means "those down below, the dead." The origins of the word "hell" are from "hole" and "hollow", from an Anglo-Saxon meaning "to hide", also tying in with the Norse goddess of the underworld Hel. There is nothing murky or mysterious about this teaching. Jesus Christ died, and went to where the dead go.
What Catholic teaching is on the matter is something that needs to go to the dedicated Catholic threads. However, I am not aware that there is any Catholic teaching (or Eastern Orthodox, or any other Christian group for that matter) that says that Jesus Christ fought the devil while He was dead. I searched, and could find no evidence of it. Unless you can provide some sort of proof that there is a Catholic teaching that Jesus Christ fought the devil, was punished at the hands of the devil, or that the devil rules over "hell" (of any definition), then I suggest that you stop claiming that to be true.
There is a huge difference between teaching that Jesus Christ was dead, and claiming that Jesus Christ fought the devil. It doesn't matter how many "christians" believe that Jesus Christ did that, it doesn't matter how many various groups teach it, it is still wrong. There is a lot of false teaching out there. It doesn't matter how many people teach or believe something blatantly contrary to scripture, that doesn't make it acceptable.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 4:24:49 PM
|
|
|
figmentPez
Posts: 2427
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
But still, no where does he ever say Jesus HAD to do this to complete his work. No where does he ever even indicated that Jesus WORK was not completed on the cross.
Did you even bother to read it?
"“Look, Satan, I'm down here to take care of business. I'm ready to do battle. I don't want to be here any longer than I have to be because it stinks down here."
"He went over and ripped the keys of death and hell out of Satan’s hands."
Osteen says that Jesus was down there to do business, and that He had to be down there to take the keys away from Satan. The keys that Jesus Christ says that He has in Revelation. If Joel is teaching that Satan held those keys, and that Jesus has them now, then Joel was teaching that Jesus Christ had to do that to complete His work.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 10:42:12 PM
|
|
|
cwb
Posts: 154
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Seems to concensus that JO doesn't preach the Word. And I agree.
But is 80 pages of criticism necessary?
When you have self-professing Christians saying Joel's teaching are fine and dandy? No, it is not enough.
Who DOES say he teaches the word?
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 10:48:05 PM
|
|
|
BlackCapnHarlock
Posts: 425
Joined: 8/20/2005
Status: offline
|
Oh please, ya'll are reaching.
Joel's sermon preached this
1. JESUS died on the cross for our sins.
2. JESUS defeated Satan and all the forces of evil on the cross.
3. JESUS rose again.
4. We can have faith in his redeeming act of salvation.
Yep that's all wrong right? Goodness the haterade in this thread is just insane.
Let me critique some of ya'lls comments
2. Jesus NEVER did battle with satan face to face.
What about Luke Chapter 4 and Mark Chapter 4 and all the demons JESUS cast out? He met Satan head on and defeated him by not giving into temptation like we have done and sometimes do. Then he kicked demons out left and right.
See what it's like when someone over criticizes your speak or what you right . . goodness folks.
I bet some of you are going to be ticked off when you step into heaven and if you see Joel Osteen amongst the crowd.
_____________________________
Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/2/2008 10:17:25 AM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3113
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drcain
And another thing. About the "quote" Joel uses?quote:
ORIGINAL: Joel Osteen
The Bible says in Colossians 2:15 that God “disarmed the principalities and powers ranged against us and he made a bold display and a public example of Satan's defeat.”
Here is the verse as written in the KJV. "Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it."
What is the "them" refered to here? Out of context it appears that the "them" are the principalities and powers. However, I read the whole letter in it's entirity for it's context. The "them" refered to are the 10 commandments and Levitical regulations that were used by the principalities and powers to condemn the Jews that were not observing all the customs and rules set there.
Just look at the next verse. So (or "Therefore", or "Now that He has done this") let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths *() is my editorial work
The Law gives strength to sin, and the regulations show that by works we are still lost. Jesus disarmed those principalities and powers of their .... um.... power.... by paying the price demanded by them. The price is death.
Study up folks. Lots to learn and time is short.
Thanks David.
Exegesis (context) makes a lot of sense.
Isegesis (Joel's opinions) negates that sense.
It is refreshing to see exegetal statements in contrast
to JO's hallmark "half a verse out of context" at the
end of his ramblings.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/2/2008 11:38:15 AM
|
|
|
BlackCapnHarlock
Posts: 425
Joined: 8/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drcain
quote:
ORIGINAL: BlackCapnHarlock
Oh please, ya'll are reaching.
What are you smoking and why aren't you sharing?
<snort> 
You need to read more than just the last couple of post before jumping in like this. It makes you look foolish. But if you really want to defend Joel, it is your choice. After much research on this topic myself, I can stand here and state firmly, in front of our Father, and say flat out...
Joel Osteen is a false teacher of the Gospel.
You were warned about him. Look into it yourself if you have the will to open your eyes.
Have a nice day. 
I look foolish? I'm not slandering other Christians and other Preachers who are doing more work for the LORD than just hollering on the Internet.
There is a lot of sin in this thread, a ton of opinion, bias and just plain hate.
Joel Osteen isn't John M. of "Grace 2 You" or R.C. Sproul but he isn't Jim Jones or Peter Popoff either.
He preached the GOSPEL in his Easter Sermon, JESUS rose from the dead, and is the only way of salvation.
His church is reaching THOUSANDS of folks, they have a ton of ministries making a difference for Christ. There are many strong and serious Christians who like Joel O. Sorry to tell you that.
We all don't need to sound like R.C. or John M. that isn't my goal, my goal is to be the best preacher I can be in CHRIST.
Man I can see if Joel O. was like Dr. Thompson and preaching, "GOD wants you to be a billionaire, or millionaire just shout a lot and you'll be rich" that's ____ (not profanity but a word too strong for this website) and you and I know that.
Joel. JESUS loves you and wants to be with you in the ups and downs of life.
Yep . .. that's something to be fired up about.
_____________________________
Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/2/2008 4:21:42 PM
|
|
|
figmentPez
Posts: 2427
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BlackCapnHarlock
He preached the GOSPEL in his Easter Sermon, JESUS rose from the dead, and is the only way of salvation.
The gospel does not involve Jesus Christ fighting the devil while in the grave! The gospel does not involve giving territory to Satan that is not His! (Satan does not rule hell.) The gospel does not involve Jesus taking keys from the devil!
quote:
2. JESUS defeated Satan and all the forces of evil on the cross.
It seems you have a poor understanding of what happened on the cross, and a poor understanding of the English language. Joel did not preach that Jesus Christ defeated Satan on the cross, Joel said that Jesus Christ went down into hell, calling it the devil's territory, and defeated Satan there. Joel says that Jesus fought the devil for three days. He even says that Jesus and Satan are "the two most powerful forces in the universe." This is absurd! Satan is not that powerful. If we were to put Satan on par with another being, it would be Michael the Archangel (Unless, maybe, Joel buys into Jehovah's Witness doctrine, and believes that Jesus is Michael.) If this were a battle based on Satan's power versus Jesus Christ's power, it wouldn't take three days, it wouldn't take three seconds. Also, Joel said that Jesus and Satan "have come together to do battle for the first time in history". Apparently Joel doesn't agree with you that Jesus was face to face with the devil in Luke 4 or Mark 4. If Jesus had to go down into hell, after His death on the cross, to face Satan for the first time, how could Joel be saying that Jesus defeated satan on the cross?
Shall we look at what scripture says on this matter?
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Yes, Christ's death rendered the devil powerless, but we need to know WHY His death did that. It's not because of a round of fisticuffs down in hell, that's for sure. The next verse in Hebrews tells us!
Hebrews 2:15
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
The power that the devil had was the fear/threat of death, but the devil is NOT the one who causes that death! God is the judge who punishes sin!
Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
1John 3:8
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
The way that Jesus Christ destroyed the power of the devil was to end the enmity between men and God, by being the atoning sacrifice for sin. This allows men to have faith and be saved, ending their death sentence and setting them free from their slavery to sin. Because they are free from sin and death, they are no longer of the devil. Jesus accomplished this, not by a cosmic show of force, but by humility and obedience to the Father. Jesus Christ laid down His rights, most notably His right to life, and died, so that others might live. Jesus did not have to slug it out with the devil and take keys that Satan had, because Satan never had the keys to death! Death is, and always has been, the punishment for sin, and that punishment is being under the wrath of God. God is the one who is the Lawgiver and Judge! To claim that Satan ever held the keys to death is an affront to God.
Just to be clear, for those who are confused by scripture saying "him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,". That does not mean that the devil has the power to cause death, no more than when scripture says "the power of sin is the law" does it mean that sin causes the Law! By no means. God is the source of the Law! These are very similar statements. Our sinful natures use the Law to spur us to sin, by showing us what the Law says is right, and inciting us to rebel against that. The devil uses death to enslave us, by reminding us of how our sin condemns us, and using that despair to encourage us to continue in sin (among other tactics). Satan takes advantage of sin separating us from God, but Jesus Christ remedied that by enduring death in our place. Joel's sermon teaches completely contrary to that.
quote:
There is a lot of sin in this thread, a ton of opinion, bias and just plain hate.
I have cited scripture, not opinion. I do not hate Joel Osteen, he seems like a very likeable guy, but I do hate false doctrine. As for sin, that's a pretty serious accusation. Care to be specific in who you think is sinning and how?
quote:
I'm not slandering other Christians and other Preachers who are doing more work for the LORD than just hollering on the Internet.
Standing up for proper doctrine is not slander. Slander involves lies. Has anyone here misquoted Joel Osteen? Can you show us scriptural proof that our rebukes of Joel Osteen's teachings are doctrinally incorrect? If someone here has lied about what the Bible teaches, or about Joel Osteen's actual statements, then show us. Otherwise, stop claiming slander.
As for doing work for the LORD. I consider standing up for proper doctrine to be very important work. In fact, the ability and willingness to refute false doctrine is listed as one of the requirements for a leader of the Church. If Joel Osteen doesn't spend any time or effort in refuting false doctrine, then He doesn't meet the scriptural requirements to be in leadership.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/2/2008 7:56:18 PM
|
|
|
drcain
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX.
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPezquote:
There is a lot of sin in this thread, a ton of opinion, bias and just plain hate.
I have cited scripture, not opinion. I do not hate Joel Osteen, he seems like a very likeable guy, but I do hate false doctrine. As for sin, that's a pretty serious accusation. Care to be specific in who you think is sinning and how?
quote:
I'm not slandering other Christians and other Preachers who are doing more work for the LORD than just hollering on the Internet.
Standing up for proper doctrine is not slander. Slander involves lies. Has anyone here misquoted Joel Osteen? Can you show us scriptural proof that our rebukes of Joel Osteen's teachings are doctrinally incorrect? If someone here has lied about what the Bible teaches, or about Joel Osteen's actual statements, then show us. Otherwise, stop claiming slander.
Yeah, what he said. 
Look, I am sorry to get snippy and that isn't how we are to be towards each other. It is my old nature that I fight every day.
Look around. If you were in the proverbial movie theater and there were many folks yelling "FIRE!", don't you think it would be a good idea to at least check into their claim? Or would you sit there and claim that those yelling were disrupting the movie and would you please keep it down?
I agree with you that Joel is no Peter Popov. Ol' Pete is a huckster and he has been discussed in another thread. His works are obvious to many, but still there are those at a certain level who are blind to even that.
On this level.... Joel does not believe what he sort of teaches. He denied Christ on Larry King's show. Can't you see that? What of you? If you were asked if you believe that the only way to God is only through Jesus, would you hemhaw around and say "well, I don't know...." or would you state that only faith in Jesus will get you into Heaven? Joel was asked point blank "Is Jesus the only way?" He spoke from his heart when he said "I dunno" for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
I hope and pray so, for your sake. Compare what he says to what is in the Bible.
_____________________________
David
What? Me worry?
Matthew 6:34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/2/2008 8:04:03 PM
|
|
|
drcain
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX.
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Just to be clear, for those who are confused by scripture saying "him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,". That does not mean that the devil has the power to cause death, no more than when scripture says "the power of sin is the law" does it mean that sin causes the Law! By no means. God is the source of the Law! These are very similar statements. Our sinful natures use the Law to spur us to sin, by showing us what the Law says is right, and inciting us to rebel against that. The devil uses death to enslave us, by reminding us of how our sin condemns us, and using that despair to encourage us to continue in sin (among other tactics). Satan takes advantage of sin separating us from God, but Jesus Christ remedied that by enduring death in our place.
Amen!
Compare this preaching here to what Joel preaches. Some consider this kind of message to be "fire and brimstone" preaching and I ask you, has Joel EVER said anything like this? Or has he said "you can be a good neighbor, yes you can. Just try, you'll see."
Sorry, Mr. Rogers
_____________________________
David
What? Me worry?
Matthew 6:34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/4/2008 10:41:27 AM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3113
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
I thought of this thread as I did my morning studies:
ISAIAH 30:8-11
8. Now, Go, write it down on a tablet and inscribe it in a record,
that it may be with them for future days, a witness forever.
9. For it is a rebellious people, faithless children, children who refused
to heed the instruction of the LORD;
10. Who said to the seers, "Do not see," to the prophets, "Do not prophesy
truth to us; speak to us falsehoods, prophesy delusons.
11. Leave the way! Get off the path! Let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel!"
I especially liked Isa. 30:15
. . . . "You shall triumph by stillness and quiet;
Your victory shall come about through calm and confidence". . . . .
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
