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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 9:04:15 AM
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drcain
Posts: 140
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX.
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Fig...
Great response (as usual)
On the latest video clip link, Joel says (paraphrased) that all he wants to do is show people how to live a Christian life. But, as the commentator states, no where in there (Joel's book) is God or Jesus mentioned.
Joel's teachings are so subtle, and even though some of it of it is true, in the context that he presents his messages he makes null and void the sacrifice of Jesus at Calvery. I sat this morning and watched part of his service and switched between it and the program "Way of the Master". I compared the two messages.
WOTM teaches Christians a biblical way to witness to the lost. Their message on how to live the Christian life is summed up in 10 words: confess, repent, believe, be baptised, trust in and follow Jesus."
Joel uses how many words on how to live a Christian life in his new book? And (according to the interview) not once is Jesus mentioned. NOT ONCE.
Here is a good test if you want see my objection to Joel's teachings. Take his new book, "7 steps to becoming a better you" and take that to .. oh .. lets pick on the Chineese. Go to China and see if this book of his "preaches". Or Mexico. Or Lower Wacker in Chicago. Or <insert your own place here> and see if it offers hope to those that have none.
Joel's teaching and preaching leaves the soul dry and empty. Because his words are dry and empty. Like a mirage of water in the desert, it evaporates under the heat of an angry and vengeful God who will judge the world according to His standard, not on how many steps we took to make our lives better.
< Message edited by drcain -- 1/30/2008 9:12:13 AM >
_____________________________
David
What? Me worry?
Matthew 6:34
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 9:18:34 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6220
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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" Joel's teaching and preaching leaves the soul dry and empty. Because his words are dry and empty. Like a mirage of water in the desert, it evaporates under the heat of an angry and vengeful God who will judge the world according to His standard, not on how many steps we took to make our lives better. "
Wow, what an amazing paragraph. God bless you for sharing this with us.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 3:30:21 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3610
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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The only way any of us will find MORE OF GOD, is if we hunger and thirst.
On the sermon on the mount, Jesus said those who hunger and thirst will be filled.
The catch is, we will only be filled in accordance to our hunger.
If our thirst is only for straight water, that's all we get and we're content.
But if we want substance, we have to be hungry for substance.
My hunger is such that it will never be filled in this life time.
JO offers "not one thing" that touches the taste buds for me becaues there is "nothing there."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 5:57:23 PM
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relady
Posts: 1286
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Are you ever going to answer our questions to you about how the Jesus Joel preaches is not the Jesus of Scripture? I am sincerely asking because you come into this thread post something, we ask you questions, and you disappear from the thread for a while and then come back (ignoring all the questions we asked you) and post something else defending Joel. I'm so sorry, but I don't see the Jesus he preaches as being so awfully different. Several of you seem to be really hung up on Mormonism that I know little about. And most of you don't seem interested in listening to anything other than your already predetermined ideas. What he believes about Jesus (that he went to hell, etc) is a fairly common belief among Pentecostals. Do you think they are all lost and going to hell, too??? If not, why not?
It's been posted out here by people who attend his church that Joel does not preach and teach the "meat" so to speak, but that there ARE those in the church that do, and that goes ignored as well.
We obviously have different views. I am NOT going to get into it over Mormonism, and I don't believe ANY church has the absolute "correct" doctrine. I've also stated that several times.
I simply don't believe he is leading everyone in his church to hell. And I think he is being very unfairly defamed on this particular thread.
quote:
God's teachings are doctrine. One cannot call all doctrine bad. True, but what's being spouted on this particular thread borders on being dogmatic, if not outrightly that way. Whether or not Jesus went to hell and fought Satan during his 3 days in the grave is certainly different than what I was taught. But it does not in any way diminish who Jesus was or what he did. Therefore, it is not a VITAL part of doctrine. Except for on this thread.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 6:25:17 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6220
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
I'm so sorry, but I don't see the Jesus he preaches as being so awfully different.
But sadly it is.
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
Several of you seem to be really hung up on Mormonism that I know little about.
I recommend you do a little study on their core beliefs. If you'd like me to write a quick outline of what the core essentials/beliefs of Mormonism are, please let me know and I will gladly do so for you. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
And most of you don't seem interested in listening to anything other than your already predetermined ideas.
Is it really fair to say that when we are basing our comments on video, audio, and written documentation from Joel himself? It's not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
What he believes about Jesus (that he went to hell, etc) is a fairly common belief among Pentecostals. Do you think they are all lost and going to hell, too??? If not, why not?
Because Joel, per his own words, doesn't merely believe that Jesus went to Hades to deliver those in Abraham's bosom to heaven (God's presence). No, Joel believes Jesus did not atone for your sins on the cross. That Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not enough, that Jesus was a liar when He said, "It is finished", that Jesus had to suffer sins of all kinds by Satan and the demonic in Hell, and that Jesus only got out of there because He had enough faith in His words to speak them and become the first born again man. Thus, saying Jesus was not fully God and fully man at several junctions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
It's been posted out here by people who attend his church that Joel does not preach and teach the "meat" so to speak, but that there ARE those in the church that do, and that goes ignored as well.
Really? Who? I have been to Lakewood several times, sat in the front row with the Osteen staff and family several times and continue to go when I am in the Houston area.
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
We obviously have different views. I am NOT going to get into it over Mormonism, and I don't believe ANY church has the absolute "correct" doctrine. I've also stated that several times.
Many many many churches have the core essentials of Christianity correct, they have it down pat. No one is asking for perfection but for actually preaching biblical Christianity. We are so horrible at simply accepting anything and anyone that simply smiles in a suit and uses Christianese sounding words.
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
I simply don't believe he is leading everyone in his church to hell. And I think he is being very unfairly defamed on this particular thread.
It is safe to say that if a pastor is preaching a false Jesus and a false non existent gospel - than what could he possibly be leading people to?
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
True, but what's being spouted on this particular thread borders on being dogmatic, if not outrightly that way. Whether or not Jesus went to hell and fought Satan during his 3 days in the grave is certainly different than what I was taught. But it does not in any way diminish who Jesus was or what he did. Therefore, it is not a VITAL part of doctrine. Except for on this thread.
I hope my explanation above (and something that has been thoroughly explained and discussed in this thread has now helped you see that Joel is not simply saying Jesus went to hell and that's it.
I know tone is very hard to convey sometimes on a message board, but please know I am not writing this reply out in anger or anything other than my want to be like the Bereans and wanting to obey God in warning other believers.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 7:10:31 PM
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treeclimber48
Posts: 112
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On the Joel Osteen website is a reply to the Larry King interview that others can read. Listen to the questions as Larry asks them, maybe then you will see how leading the questions were and how one sided they were. Larry wanted a yes answer to the questions he asked. Osteen could not give a yes answer because he does not know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. Only God knows this. I know a little about the Mormon faith since I was raised in Mormon country. It is also wrong to condemn all of them. Should Joel Osteen be preaching, if you don't do it this way then you are going to hell. Well I will say this, what does the Bible say about gossiping, this thread is full of it.
Where do possessions come from? Who gives them to us? Do we get them all by ourselves. What do these words mean, give to me my daily bread.
Many church pastors leave a lot to be desired in this day and age. Many preaach the way that God the Holy Spirit directs them do. It doesn't please all people. Some reject it and call it false teaching.
If Joel is doing wrong than the people should go to him to help understand what he is doing wrong so he can change it or correct it. I hear a lot of judging and unforgiveness on this thread. I asked it in another threadl, I will ask it here, where is the Christian love and understanding? I don't see it here. I just see he isn't preaching that you are going to hell for your sins, turn from them. How many will listen to this or any other pastor who preaches you are going to burn in hell. Even Billy Graham didn't preach this.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 7:26:42 PM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lewr2
I love Billy Graham, but he's not scripture.
Sure isn't!
He was asked by Larry King if Jesus is the only way to heaven. He didn't give the correct answer. Not good Billy...
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 7:32:36 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2791
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
It's been posted out here by people who attend his church that Joel does not preach and teach the "meat" so to speak, but that there ARE those in the church that do, and that goes ignored as well .
But as chief shepherd of his church that is his responsibility. And why does he not use the Gospel in the referenced book?
quote:
Whether or not Jesus went to hell and fought Satan during his 3 days in the grave is certainly different than what I was taught. But it does not in any way diminish who Jesus was or what he did. Therefore, it is not a VITAL part of doctrine.
Yes, it does because it is a clear violation of scripture. Since you seem to believe doctrine doesn’t matter do you believe Satan and Jesus were brothers?
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 7:42:43 PM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: carlkeigley
Anyone see him on Fox News last night? I missed it.
I saw the interview. It cut to my soul. "Christmas is about Jesus; he was born and died".
How 'bout 'resurrected' too Joel???
He also said it wasn't his job to address sin [of his parishoners].
HUH? Isn't the shepherd responsible for the sheep?
Bad testimony Joel...
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 7:42:47 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2791
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Larry wanted a yes answer to the questions he asked. Osteen could not give a yes answer because he does not know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. Only God knows this.
He could of said "I believe the bible teaches.....
quote:
I hear a lot of judging and unforgiveness on this thread. I asked it in another threadl, I will ask it here, where is the Christian love and understanding? I don't see it here. I just see he isn't preaching that you are going to hell for your sins, turn from them.
What did Jesus say about repentance:
John 3:3 (ESV) 3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again£ he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
quote:
I hear a lot of judging and unforgiveness on this thread. I asked it in another threadl, I will ask it here, where is the Christian love and understanding?
So you want the UU version of the gospel "Can't we all just get along?"
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/30/2008 8:36:48 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6220
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: treeclimber48
On the Joel Osteen website is a reply to the Larry King interview that others can read. Listen to the questions as Larry asks them, maybe then you will see how leading the questions were and how one sided they were. Larry wanted a yes answer to the questions he asked. Osteen could not give a yes answer because he does not know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. Only God knows this. I know a little about the Mormon faith since I was raised in Mormon country. It is also wrong to condemn all of them. Should Joel Osteen be preaching, if you don't do it this way then you are going to hell. Well I will say this, what does the Bible say about gossiping, this thread is full of it.
Where do possessions come from? Who gives them to us? Do we get them all by ourselves. What do these words mean, give to me my daily bread.
Many church pastors leave a lot to be desired in this day and age. Many preaach the way that God the Holy Spirit directs them do. It doesn't please all people. Some reject it and call it false teaching.
If Joel is doing wrong than the people should go to him to help understand what he is doing wrong so he can change it or correct it. I hear a lot of judging and unforgiveness on this thread. I asked it in another threadl, I will ask it here, where is the Christian love and understanding? I don't see it here. I just see he isn't preaching that you are going to hell for your sins, turn from them. How many will listen to this or any other pastor who preaches you are going to burn in hell. Even Billy Graham didn't preach this.
But anyone that is a Christian and knows Scripture knows that without Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible, there is no eternal life with Him. Why do you keep making excuses for a man's horrific teachings?
The Christian love is in testing everything in light of Scripture.
The Christian love is in warning others of wolves in sheep's clothing.
The Christian love is in warning others of a false jesus and a false gospel.
AGAIN - no one is asking for a hell fire and brimstone preacher, but simply a Christian one. Joel Osteen has shown us over these years that he is not a Christian preacher.
As for Billy Graham - you're right, he was not all hell fire and brimstone, but he did present the Gospel clearly and preached the Jesus revealed in Scripture.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 3:55:00 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2061
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
Whether or not Jesus went to hell and fought Satan during his 3 days in the grave is certainly different than what I was taught. But it does not in any way diminish who Jesus was or what he did.
On the contrary, teaching that Jesus Christ had to fight the devil GREATLY diminishes what Christ accomplished on the cross, and it is slanderous to the Father as well! The idea that Jesus had to fight the devil to take back anything is blasphemous! The devil has never controlled death, and the price for sin was not paid to satan. The death that is the price of sin is at the hands of God, to be dead is to be under the wrath of God. That is what Jesus Christ endured on the cross, the fullness of the wrath of God poured out on the perfect lamb. This satisfied the wrath of God toward sin, and allowed Jesus Christ to proclaim "It is finished!". That paid the price of sin. No price was paid to the devil. No battle was fought with the devil.
To claim that Jesus Christ had to fight the devil to secure our salvation, is to claim that the devil has power over what God has declared is in His control. It leads to false conclusions about the nature of death, the nature of sin and it's consequences, the power of God and the nature of Christ's sacrifice! Jesus Christ did not pay the price for sin by fighting, but by humble obedience to the Father. Jesus died in our place to save us, He did not fight the devil. The idea of some fight in hell completely changes the nature of the work of Jesus Christ, so much so that I don't think it can be considered to be the same gospel that was preached by the Apostles.
So,
quote:
What he believes about Jesus (that he went to hell, etc) is a fairly common belief among Pentecostals. Do you think they are all lost and going to hell, too??? If not, why not?
Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ saved them by fighting the devil, and doesn't believe that He saved us by His death on the cross, is not saved because they have not believed the gospel.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 4:02:58 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2061
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: treeclimber48
Osteen could not give a yes answer because he does not know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. Only God knows this.
We may not know the specific people who are saved, but we do know who God will save. God has told us. Only those who have faith in Jesus Christ will be saved. Joel didn't have to say who he thinks has faith, all he had to say was what God has told us.
quote:
I know a little about the Mormon faith since I was raised in Mormon country. It is also wrong to condemn all of them. Should Joel Osteen be preaching, if you don't do it this way then you are going to hell.
Mormon teaching is polytheistic. Anyone who worships multiple gods is not going to be saved. It's that simple. Mormons do not believe in the real Jesus Christ, the God of Peter, the God of Paul, the God of Abraham, the God of John, the God of... Joel Osteen should be preaching that you must believe in the Way, the Truth and the Life to be saved, because that is was Jesus Christ preached!
John 8:24-25
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning?
There are no two ways about it. Either we believe that Jesus Christ is exactly who He claimed to be, or we will die in our sins. That is what Jesus Christ preached. That is what the Apostle's preached. That is what I will preach. That is what Joel Osteen should preach.
quote:
Well I will say this, what does the Bible say about gossiping, this thread is full of it.
It is gossip to stand up for proper doctrine? Since when is declaring Jesus Christ and Him crucified considered gossip?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 4:13:02 PM
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relady
Posts: 1286
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ saved them by fighting the devil, and doesn't believe that He saved us by His death on the cross, is not saved because they have not believed the gospel. They DO believe he saved us by his death AND resurrection What happened in between times does nothing at all to diminish this. And besides, from what I've been able to assess, this particular "doctrine" comes from an originally orthodox creed. It matters not to me. Anyway, I have my answer. Apparently you believe that all Pentecostals are consigned to hell unless they change their ways. Of course, I vehemently disagree, so we shall just agree to disagree and I think I'm probably outta here on this particular discussion.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 5:04:21 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2061
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ saved them by fighting the devil, and doesn't believe that He saved us by His death on the cross, is not saved because they have not believed the gospel. They DO believe he saved us by his death AND resurrection What happened in between times does nothing at all to diminish this. And besides, from what I've been able to assess, this particular "doctrine" comes from an originally orthodox creed. It matters not to me. Anyway, I have my answer. Apparently you believe that all Pentecostals are consigned to hell unless they change their ways. Of course, I vehemently disagree, so we shall just agree to disagree and I think I'm probably outta here on this particular discussion.
If they believe that Jesus Christ had to fight the devil to secure salvation, then they don't believe that He saved us by His death on the cross. As I have shown in my previous post, to claim that something had to be won from the devil in a fight does diminish what Jesus Christ went through on the cross, and it diminishes the power of God in general. This isn't just a matter of some believing that Jesus Christ did a little more, it is a matter of that "little more" being completely contrary to what really happened, and being incompatible with proper understanding of the real sacrifice that Jesus Christ made.
As for this false doctrine coming from an orthodox creed, that may be true, but only in that the Apostle's Creed is being severely misunderstood because of a shift in language. When the Apostle's Creed declares "was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell." It is not saying that Jesus went to the Lake of Fire or any place of eternal torment, it is using an older definition of hell, simply meaning the grave, death or hades. Furthermore, it takes even more twisting to contrive that this statement means that Jesus fought the devil. The devil does not rule hell, not in any sense of the word. The devil and his demons do not punish the wicked, God punishes the wicked.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 5:26:49 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2404
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ saved them by fighting the devil, and doesn't believe that He saved us by His death on the cross, is not saved because they have not believed the gospel. They DO believe he saved us by his death AND resurrection What happened in between times does nothing at all to diminish this. And besides, from what I've been able to assess, this particular "doctrine" comes from an originally orthodox creed. It matters not to me. Anyway, I have my answer. Apparently you believe that all Pentecostals are consigned to hell unless they change their ways. Of course, I vehemently disagree, so we shall just agree to disagree and I think I'm probably outta here on this particular discussion.
You have a very poor understanding of Pentecostalism to wrap us all into the same category and likeness of false teachers such as Osteen.
Do some research before you make blanket statements over such an immense movement of people. Thanks.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 6:30:23 PM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ saved them by fighting the devil, and doesn't believe that He saved us by His death on the cross, is not saved because they have not believed the gospel. They DO believe he saved us by his death AND resurrection What happened in between times does nothing at all to diminish this. And besides, from what I've been able to assess, this particular "doctrine" comes from an originally orthodox creed. It matters not to me. Anyway, I have my answer. Apparently you believe that all Pentecostals are consigned to hell unless they change their ways. Of course, I vehemently disagree, so we shall just agree to disagree and I think I'm probably outta here on this particular discussion.
Not all who are Pentecostal's accept JO's doctrine - quite the contrary, we call it out for what it is, FALSE. This man is a danger to all who follow his teachings and doctrine.
We're being like the Good Berean's and testing what he says against what we're clearly given in Scripture - his teachings fail the test of truth every time. His teachings are a false light, a false love, and a false hope - they don't point to the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work at Calvary.
Get past your emotions and ask the Lord to open your eyes to the truth.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 7:36:32 PM
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musicboss11
Posts: 557
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: online
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In the often quoted Larry King interview of June 20, 2005, King asks: "What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ at all? Osteen replies: "You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven". King than asks: "If you believe that you have to believe in Christ than they're wrong aren't they?" Osteen replies: "Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong." Latter, King asks "what about atheists?" Osteen replies: "You know what, I'm going to let someone, I'm going to let God be the judge of who goes to heaven and hell".
While we can't trully know someone's heart, we CAN know that those who reject Christ will NOT be saved. John 3:16, "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that who ever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life". Romans 10:9, "If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved". Those are just a few verses. This leaves no room for atheists, muslims, or others who do not accept Christ as Lord.
As for "give us this day our daily bread", I have a hard time believing that Jesus meant that daily bread included luxury cars, mansions, designer suits, and all the other things that go along with a "bless me big" mentality.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 8:16:15 PM
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drcain
Posts: 140
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX.
Status: offline
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quote:
King asks: "What if you're Jewish or Muslim [and] you don't accept Christ at all?"
Osteen replies: "You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven."
King then asks: "If you believe that you have to believe in Christ then they're wrong aren't they?"
Osteen replies: "Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong."
These 2 questions hit square into the middle of what I, myself, believe.
Joel's wishy-washy, no faith, doesn't-want-to-offend answers speak so loudly about what he truly believes.
Joel does not have faith in Jesus and is not saved.
That is not being judgemental, it is discernment, a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
But if you want to consider it judging, then I will stand and be judged with the same measure I used on Joel.
I am saved. Joel is not.
Pray for Joel and his mislead flock. His itchy eared crowd will be able to stand side by side as they march into eternity, because the way Joel is leading them is so very wide.
_____________________________
David
What? Me worry?
Matthew 6:34
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 10:04:53 PM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drcain
quote:
King asks: "What if you're Jewish or Muslim [and] you don't accept Christ at all?"
Osteen replies: "You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven."
King then asks: "If you believe that you have to believe in Christ then they're wrong aren't they?"
Osteen replies: "Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong."
These 2 questions hit square into the middle of what I, myself, believe.
Joel's wishy-washy, no faith, doesn't-want-to-offend answers speak so loudly about what he truly believes.
Joel does not have faith in Jesus and is not saved.
That is not being judgemental, it is discernment, a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
But if you want to consider it judging, then I will stand and be judged with the same measure I used on Joel.
I am saved. Joel is not.
Pray for Joel and his mislead flock. His itchy eared crowd will be able to stand side by side as they march into eternity, because the way Joel is leading them is so very wide.
I think you're sugar-coatin' it too much. 
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 11:19:08 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2791
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
They DO believe he saved us by his death AND resurrection What happened in between times does nothing at all to diminish this.
Then why do they add to the teaching the sin debt was totally paid for at the cross. Their teaching make Christ's death on the cross insufficent!
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And besides, from what I've been able to assess, this particular "doctrine" comes from an originally orthodox creed.
The words mean He descended to the dead.
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It matters not to me.
So, your opinion matters more than Scripture
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 1/31/2008 11:27:46 PM
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relady
Posts: 1286
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
The words mean He descended to the dead. Well, several places in the Bible where the word "Hell" is used, should be Hades or Sheol. So it goes both ways. The words, unfortunately, have been interchangeably used until recently and they were used that way in early Bible translations. The early Christians believed in Hades, which was where Christ allegedly went.
It is a murky enough doctrine that I'm willing to let people have their own beliefs. It is also a very Catholic doctrine so I do understand that some people don't accept it. However, I certainly don't consider a preacher/teacher a "false teacher" for believing it. It's a pretty common belief throughout Christianity. Common enough that it should not warrant the defamation going on on this thread.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 2/1/2008 8:16:29 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6220
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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relady,
Please don't insult Pentecostals with Joel Osteen. Osteen is Word of Faith, major difference. Many of us, including myself, are or come from Pentecostal backgrounds.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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