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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 2:55:17 PM
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floydette
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
Not sure of the date of the article, but the Houston Chronicle had an article on Osteen. They asked him why there were no crosses in the church. He said they were a barrier. Think on that one a minute...
Iss44,
I see where you are going with this. And, yes, I understand. However, that is the line of thinking within the seeker movement. The basic difference between a seeker church drawing people, and a traditional church drawing people is this: A traditonal church says, "We have Jesus. So, come because you need Him." A seeker church would say (inc, I think Joel O) "See your need? Well, come, we have what meets that need, and He is Jesus."
There are so many people that are turned off of religion, God, Jesus, the whole thing, because they have had fingers pointed at them for so long. The reason for the lack of the cross, isn't because it is not important. But, for many, it has become a symbol of judgmental and prideful people. It is sad, but true.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 3:00:45 PM
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KathrynM
Posts: 12
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
Not sure of the date of the article, but the Houston Chronicle had an article on Osteen. They asked him why there were no crosses in the church. He said they were a barrier. Think on that one a minute...
Iss44,
I see where you are going with this. And, yes, I understand. However, that is the line of thinking within the seeker movement. The basic difference between a seeker church drawing people, and a traditional church drawing people is this: A traditonal church says, "We have Jesus. So, come because you need Him." A seeker church would say (inc, I think Joel O) "See your need? Well, come, we have what meets that need, and He is Jesus."
There are so many people that are turned off of religion, God, Jesus, the whole thing, because they have had fingers pointed at them for so long. The reason for the lack of the cross, isn't because it is not important. But, for many, it has become a symbol of judgmental and prideful people. It is sad, but true.
That's interesting. I once had a guy point to the cross on my neck and say "That's all you Christians believe in. That body on the cross!" I tried to explain that we worship a God who is spirit, and we worship Jesus for himself, but he didn't seem to listen to me.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 3:13:41 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KathrynM
quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
Not sure of the date of the article, but the Houston Chronicle had an article on Osteen. They asked him why there were no crosses in the church. He said they were a barrier. Think on that one a minute...
Iss44,
I see where you are going with this. And, yes, I understand. However, that is the line of thinking within the seeker movement. The basic difference between a seeker church drawing people, and a traditional church drawing people is this: A traditonal church says, "We have Jesus. So, come because you need Him." A seeker church would say (inc, I think Joel O) "See your need? Well, come, we have what meets that need, and He is Jesus."
There are so many people that are turned off of religion, God, Jesus, the whole thing, because they have had fingers pointed at them for so long. The reason for the lack of the cross, isn't because it is not important. But, for many, it has become a symbol of judgmental and prideful people. It is sad, but true.
That's interesting. I once had a guy point to the cross on my neck and say "That's all you Christians believe in. That body on the cross!" I tried to explain that we worship a God who is spirit, and we worship Jesus for himself, but he didn't seem to listen to me.
Sounds like he had been deeply wounded.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 3:14:07 PM
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lss44
Posts: 96
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If a Christian cannot associate with the cross, I wonder about their association with Christ. I do not say that in a judgemental fashion, but with love for what my Savior did on the cross for me.
When folks say that they have been hurt by religion, I would say that they have been hurt by people. It is not God who has hurt them. Perhaps if the seekers and the seeker senstive could turn their eyes off themselves and on to God, they would get over themselves and truly let it all be about God.
We who set up to be seeker friendly set up people for failure because as much as we say it is not about them or us...it is. If we truly are seeker senstive, we will love people enough to tell them the truth about their need of daily relationship with our Holy God and eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Don't be ashamed of Christ, who He is or the grace He gives. We have wiped out any reminders of God in our of society, now will we wipe out any reminder of Him in the Church?
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 3:18:37 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2061
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
That's interesting. I once had a guy point to the cross on my neck and say "That's all you Christians believe in. That body on the cross!" I tried to explain that we worship a God who is spirit, and we worship Jesus for himself, but he didn't seem to listen to me.
1Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 3:19:01 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
If a Christian cannot associate with the cross, I wonder about their association with Christ. I do not say that in a judgemental fashion, but with love for what my Savior did on the cross for me.
I was talking about seekers - non-believers, not believer associating with the cross. Sorry, if I wasn't clear.
quote:
When folks say that they have been hurt by religion, I would say that they have been hurt by people. It is not God who has hurt them. Perhaps if the seekers and the seeker senstive could turn their eyes off themselves and on to God, they would get over themselves and truly let it all be about God.
I would agree that they have been hurt by people. But we often get confused, and believe it is God that has hurt us. Also, people have done many nasty things in the name of God. If you are a non-believer, you don't realize that is a just the person, you think it was God.
Taking your eyes off yourself, and putting them on Christ is our entire journey. It doesn't happen overnight.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 3:40:00 PM
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lss44
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Why does the truth of the Word, the power of the Cross and the blood of Christ need to be repackaged by business men who are marketing the church, maybe better called hirelings than pastors, to those who don't like church?
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 4:46:14 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
Why does the truth of the Word, the power of the Cross and the blood of Christ need to be repackaged by business men who are marketing the church, maybe better called hirelings than pastors, to those who don't like church?
How do you consider these things pre-packaged. Jesus came to people and met them in the middle of their stuff. He didn't point his fingers at anyone except the Pharisees. People came with their issues, hoping he could do something about it. They didn't know to come to him, because he was God. They came because he offered them relationship.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 5:01:30 PM
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lss44
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I said re-packaged...not pre-packaged. Jesus drew the people to Himself because of who He was. He will draw people to Himself today just as simply as He did in the accounts of the Bible.
Yes, He did meet people in the "middle of their stuff" and then bid them to move on out of their stuff.
Jesus is enough.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 5:06:22 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
I said re-packaged...not pre-packaged. Jesus drew the people to Himself because of who He was. He will draw people to Himself today just as simply as He did in the accounts of the Bible.
Yes, He did meet people in the "middle of their stuff" and then bid them to move on out of their stuff.
Jesus is enough.
Sorry, I did mean "re". Just typing fast.
I don't disagree with you. However, you didn't see those people following the Pharisees...the religious leaders of the day. You saw them following a carpenter from Nazareth. I see it as a very similiar situation.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 5:32:21 PM
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lss44
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Later on, though, they tried to align themselves with men. Paul rebuked them for this. We are not to follow man, but I see these men put out there and talked about more than Jesus. Too many times I have seen interviews and they do not mention or give glory to God for what HE is doing. Shaky foundation for a church to grow on...a man or family's reputation.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/15/2005 9:17:51 AM
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floydette
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
Later on, though, they tried to align themselves with men. Paul rebuked them for this. We are not to follow man, but I see these men put out there and talked about more than Jesus. Too many times I have seen interviews and they do not mention or give glory to God for what HE is doing. Shaky foundation for a church to grow on...a man or family's reputation.
I agree.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/15/2005 10:13:35 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
What concerns me about Joel Osteen is not his watered down fell good Christianity. If that's all it was, I would just chalk him up as another motivational speaker (Dr Phil, Tony Robbins, etc).
No, it's his blatantly unbiblical WoF/Name it Claim it theology (been posted numerous times throughout this thread and his thread in the Books section) that concerns me. 
Matthew 24:24: For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect
There is a different between "Name it, and Claim it" and declaring the word of the Lord. What I see is declaration.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/15/2005 1:10:02 PM
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the_winding_road
Posts: 11
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
Why does the truth of the Word, the power of the Cross and the blood of Christ need to be repackaged by business men who are marketing the church, maybe better called hirelings than pastors, to those who don't like church?
Wow, this is a very good point. On a retreat this past weekend the pastor put forth that when it comes to the Gospel we shouldn't be the salesmen, we should be the reporters. I am comfortable with this philosphy, mostly because in my 12 step fellowship we practice attraction rather than promotion. If somone admires me for my conduct and asks me how I did it...what better way to be able to testify?
Perhaps one could say that Joel Osteen and others may, through their TV shows, make christianity more attractive and thus bring more people to salvation. What non believer who happened to see his show about God's favor wouldn't want that? When he says to check out a bible based church at the end of his shows...I wonder how many do? But how many actually come looking for faith and how likely is one to find faith when one is not looking for it. Not many I would think.
However, I'm not sure it is fair to judge him completely by the half hour show, either. People who have been members and/or attended services have more of an experience to relate to than anyone who has only caught a few of his shows.
The part about displaying the cross being a stumbling block bothers me though. I'm not comfortable going in the back door of anything. If you want to bring people to Christ, bring them to Christ.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/15/2005 1:12:19 PM
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bzirk
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I have only watched 5 minutes of his shows. But I have read quite a few of his sermons posted on the Church's website.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/15/2005 6:16:17 PM
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KathrynM
Posts: 12
Joined: 4/21/2005
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I've been reading this forum because a number of people I know just love him. One of them is a girl at work who's become a christian since we first met just a few months ago. One of the first things she said to me was "I'm not a christian, but I think I should be". She said this because of the things Joel Osteen said on his show when she watched it.
My uncle has always been one of the most athiestic people I know, but has expressed an interest in Christianity because of Joel Osteen.
His style doesn't work for me, but I'm not going to judge him unless he says something against Jesus or the bible (that's clearly against scripture, not just "you shouldn't pray for material things". My aunt needed a new car and she doesn't earn much money. She prayed for it, and God provided.).
Personally, I don't like it that he took the crosses down, but I don't think its because he's ashamed of Jesus because he asks people to make a personal committment to him all the time. I mean its like judging people who replace crucifixes with just a wooden cross.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/15/2005 10:01:56 PM
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lss44
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Kathryn...If these folks have come to know Jesus, it is through the working of the Holy Spirit, not Joel Osteen. That is my greatest problem with him...people give him the credit.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/16/2005 9:18:44 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1492
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KathrynM
I've been reading this forum because a number of people I know just love him. One of them is a girl at work who's become a christian since we first met just a few months ago. One of the first things she said to me was "I'm not a christian, but I think I should be". She said this because of the things Joel Osteen said on his show when she watched it.
My uncle has always been one of the most athiestic people I know, but has expressed an interest in Christianity because of Joel Osteen.
What does "expressed interest in Christianity" mean? It's not like you're or car shopping or job hunting! One doesn't express interest in Christinaity, one needs to realize they are a sinner (a word Mr Osteen hardly every uses), repent of their sins and ask Jesus to be their Lord and Savior. When that happens, they need to continue a growing relationship and follow Christ!
"Becoming a Chrsitian" or "expressing interest in Christianity" are a far cry from dying to one's sinful nature and picking up their cross to follow Jesus!
Your examples perfectly highlight the problem with Joel Osteen's watered down theology. "Christian" means follower of Christ, not someone who likes to have their ears tickled and self-esteem boosted by Joel Osteen.
< Message edited by Soxfan -- 6/16/2005 9:20:52 AM >
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/16/2005 8:01:14 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: KathrynM
I've been reading this forum because a number of people I know just love him. One of them is a girl at work who's become a christian since we first met just a few months ago. One of the first things she said to me was "I'm not a christian, but I think I should be". She said this because of the things Joel Osteen said on his show when she watched it.
My uncle has always been one of the most athiestic people I know, but has expressed an interest in Christianity because of Joel Osteen.
What does "expressed interest in Christianity" mean? It's not like you're or car shopping or job hunting! One doesn't express interest in Christinaity, one needs to realize they are a sinner (a word Mr Osteen hardly every uses), repent of their sins and ask Jesus to be their Lord and Savior. When that happens, they need to continue a growing relationship and follow Christ!
"Becoming a Chrsitian" or "expressing interest in Christianity" are a far cry from dying to one's sinful nature and picking up their cross to follow Jesus!
Your examples perfectly highlight the problem with Joel Osteen's watered down theology. "Christian" means follower of Christ, not someone who likes to have their ears tickled and self-esteem boosted by Joel Osteen.
What Kathyrn is talking about is pre-disciple. The people came to see Jesus, for many reasons. They were curious, they wanted healing, they'd heard rumors. They didn't say, "oh, I heard God was in town, let's go see him." The Spirit moves in each one in a different way. Joel is used, as I am used, as you are used. None of us (hopefully) would say that it was because of us. It is about Christ. I don't think that Joel would disagree with that.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/18/2005 11:11:40 PM
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KathrynM
Posts: 12
Joined: 4/21/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: KathrynM
I've been reading this forum because a number of people I know just love him. One of them is a girl at work who's become a christian since we first met just a few months ago. One of the first things she said to me was "I'm not a christian, but I think I should be". She said this because of the things Joel Osteen said on his show when she watched it.
My uncle has always been one of the most athiestic people I know, but has expressed an interest in Christianity because of Joel Osteen.
What does "expressed interest in Christianity" mean? It's not like you're or car shopping or job hunting! One doesn't express interest in Christinaity, one needs to realize they are a sinner (a word Mr Osteen hardly every uses), repent of their sins and ask Jesus to be their Lord and Savior. When that happens, they need to continue a growing relationship and follow Christ!
"Becoming a Chrsitian" or "expressing interest in Christianity" are a far cry from dying to one's sinful nature and picking up their cross to follow Jesus!
Your examples perfectly highlight the problem with Joel Osteen's watered down theology. "Christian" means follower of Christ, not someone who likes to have their ears tickled and self-esteem boosted by Joel Osteen.
What Kathyrn is talking about is pre-disciple. The people came to see Jesus, for many reasons. They were curious, they wanted healing, they'd heard rumors. They didn't say, "oh, I heard God was in town, let's go see him." The Spirit moves in each one in a different way. Joel is used, as I am used, as you are used. None of us (hopefully) would say that it was because of us. It is about Christ. I don't think that Joel would disagree with that.
Exactly. I certainly didn't mean to give Joel Osteen credit, any more than one would give any of us credit. I just meant that even though I don't entirely agree with his ministry, he seems to attract a lot of people to consider Christianity who might otherwise not have thought about it. Its a step in the right direction. Yes, one needs to realize they are a sinner, but for one thing that is God's job, I've met plenty on websites for non-christians who flatly deny this and my telling them isn't going to do any good, and for another thing none of us should make any one person including Joel Osteen the sole source of our Christian faith. The girl I know who was interested in Christianity after watching Joel Osteen expressed that she didn't have a bible, which I was happy to provide her.
It seems to me that he is doing some good, even if not everything he says is what we think should be said. Some people see church as a condemning place where you'll be pushed and judged rather than somewhere we can come to for grace and forgiveness, and personally I think that's worse than what I've seen from him.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/19/2005 9:12:13 AM
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bzirk
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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Well, I've heard Joel Osteen preach four sermons. I didn't read them; I watched him preach them. (Yes, I also read quite a few on his website).
The guy is good. I've heard so many people preach in my lifetime that it's not even funy, and I've heard many, many teachers as well. This guy is not a teacher as I said earlier. He's not someone who is going to exegetically cover a passage, but he is a preacher. I understand now why he's having an effect. He is speaking the truth. No, he's not a Paul. He's more like a Peter.
It's interesting that God used both. It's interesting that God used Paul, the Pharisee's Pharisees, with the Gentiles who knew little of God's law, and He used Peter, far from a scholar and a simple fisherman, to deal with the Jews. Well, I am hearing from many people I respect that Joel Osteen is getting through to those in the Church. People of the Lord are turning their lives around by listening to Osteen. His message is simple, but everything I've heard him say so far is correct. I didn't like a couple of things I read, but now I'm wondering how it came across as spoken.
Delivery is as much a part of what someone says as the verbiage. Someone can argue with that, but as someone who has read TONS of other people's sermons and listened to TONS of sermons, I know it can make a huge difference. I should have listened to those sermons instead of reading them, but my sound is messed up on my computer.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/19/2005 12:14:28 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Well, I've heard Joel Osteen preach four sermons. I didn't read them; I watched him preach them. (Yes, I also read quite a few on his website).
The guy is good. I've heard so many people preach in my lifetime that it's not even funy, and I've heard many, many teachers as well. This guy is not a teacher as I said earlier. He's not someone who is going to exegetically cover a passage, but he is a preacher. I understand now why he's having an effect. He is speaking the truth. No, he's not a Paul. He's more like a Peter.
It's interesting that God used both. It's interesting that God used Paul, the Pharisee's Pharisees, with the Gentiles who knew little of God's law, and He used Peter, far from a scholar and a simple fisherman, to deal with the Jews. Well, I am hearing from many people I respect that Joel Osteen is getting through to those in the Church. People of the Lord are turning their lives around by listening to Osteen. His message is simple, but everything I've heard him say so far is correct. I didn't like a couple of things I read, but now I'm wondering how it came across as spoken.
Delivery is as much a part of what someone says as the verbiage. Someone can argue with that, but as someone who has read TONS of other people's sermons and listened to TONS of sermons, I know it can make a huge difference. I should have listened to those sermons instead of reading them, but my sound is messed up on my computer.
That's cool.
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