RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread

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benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/12/2008 10:25:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tn1 quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi Tn1, I saw that I missed your question from way back, here is one citation about how divorce was handled when a husband refused to grant his wife a divorce from an article that is dealing with the consequences of that law today. "[In ancient times, the bet din ["Jewish court of law"] was allowed to use extreme force, if necessary, to cause a recalcitrant husband to issue his wife a get. This usually involved a pack of men beating the man continuously until he agreed to issue a get. If he died during the beatings, his wife was declared a widow and was allowed to remarry, since widowhood allows women to remarry. This phenomenon is an excellent example of the additional "abuse" that often occurred in Jewish divorce cases of the past]. This last point demonstrates that no matter where Jewish women live, they are always at the mercy of their husbands to be issued a get in divorce cases. " If I have time I will look for the Mishnaic sources of this Law, for the time being, here is a link to the article I found. P.S. I haven't been following this thread as much as I used to because, as Qtman said, I also got tired of banging my head against the wall. I appreciate your posts, and applaud your efforts here; many people read this thread so there is real value to your posts, but it is unlikely to change the position of the few here who refuse to see the truth. Excellent article, thanks. It is even more evidence that Jesus was speaking against men refusing to give their expelled wives bills of divorcement and thus leaving them bound, "agunah" and not able to marry another man. If such a woman did marry, she and the man she married would both be committing adultery. It was/is a very real problem in the Jewish community. I think that is actually a big misinterpretation of the situation in the first century. Today that is a problem within Judaism because outside of Israel it is nearly impossible punish husbands who were unwilling to deliver a 'get' and even in Israel the punishment is no where as severe today as it was in the first century. In the first century husband either relented and granted a 'get' or he was beaten to death and his wife became a widow; either way she was free to remarry. I believe the clear issue that Jesus was speaking against was the situation where a husband divorced his wife for reasons outside of marital unfaithfulness; i.e. those characterized by Hillel's teaching that a man could divorce his wife for any reason. In that situation, he put his wife into a situation where she would almost be required to remarry or turn to prostitution in order to survive, and thus she would be forced to commit adultery.

car2ner -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/13/2008 12:54:23 PM)
quote: In that situation, he put his wife into a situation where she would almost be required to remarry or turn to prostitution in order to survive, and thus she would be forced to commit adultery. Or leave the faith. Again, not an option that Jesus would want forced on a woman to survive.

tn1 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/13/2008 3:34:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi quote: ORIGINAL: tn1 Excellent article, thanks. It is even more evidence that Jesus was speaking against men refusing to give their expelled wives bills of divorcement and thus leaving them bound, "agunah" and not able to marry another man. If such a woman did marry, she and the man she married would both be committing adultery. It was/is a very real problem in the Jewish community. I think that is actually a big misinterpretation of the situation in the first century. Today that is a problem within Judaism because outside of Israel it is nearly impossible punish husbands who were unwilling to deliver a 'get' and even in Israel the punishment is no where as severe today as it was in the first century. In the first century husband either relented and granted a 'get' or he was beaten to death and his wife became a widow; either way she was free to remarry. I believe the clear issue that Jesus was speaking against was the situation where a husband divorced his wife for reasons outside of marital unfaithfulness; i.e. those characterized by Hillel's teaching that a man could divorce his wife for any reason. In that situation, he put his wife into a situation where she would almost be required to remarry or turn to prostitution in order to survive, and thus she would be forced to commit adultery. And yet the debate between the Hillelites and Shammaites was not about acceptable or non-acceptable reasons for divorce; rather it was about divorce procedures and overall philosophy which they based upon their various interpretations of "ervah dabar" in Deut. 24:1. The Hillelites did promote a type of No-fault divorce procedure where if the man was willing to pay the full dowry, he need not disclose the reason for the divorce. Whereas the Shammaites believed that one must disclose the reason for the divorce and then their judges could legislate how much of the dowry the man must pay. But they basically agreed upon what they considered to be morally acceptable or non-acceptable reasons for divorce. Unfortunately, a couple of the rabbinical statements concerning the meaning of "ervah dabar" in Deut. 24:1 are taken out of their literary context and misinterpreted to sound like they were arguing over acceptable reasons. In the Mt. 19 passage, I don't see Jesus even getting into the No-fault divorce debate. Rather, I see Him denouncing the Pharisees' legalistic approach in general, affirming the reason for the bill of divorce to stop the problem of men expelling their wives and not giving them a bill of divorce, and speaking against selfish divorce in general.

benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/13/2008 3:50:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tn1 quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi quote: ORIGINAL: tn1 Excellent article, thanks. It is even more evidence that Jesus was speaking against men refusing to give their expelled wives bills of divorcement and thus leaving them bound, "agunah" and not able to marry another man. If such a woman did marry, she and the man she married would both be committing adultery. It was/is a very real problem in the Jewish community. I think that is actually a big misinterpretation of the situation in the first century. Today that is a problem within Judaism because outside of Israel it is nearly impossible punish husbands who were unwilling to deliver a 'get' and even in Israel the punishment is no where as severe today as it was in the first century. In the first century husband either relented and granted a 'get' or he was beaten to death and his wife became a widow; either way she was free to remarry. I believe the clear issue that Jesus was speaking against was the situation where a husband divorced his wife for reasons outside of marital unfaithfulness; i.e. those characterized by Hillel's teaching that a man could divorce his wife for any reason. In that situation, he put his wife into a situation where she would almost be required to remarry or turn to prostitution in order to survive, and thus she would be forced to commit adultery. And yet the debate between the Hillelites and Shammaites was not about acceptable or non-acceptable reasons for divorce; rather it was about divorce procedures and overall philosophy which they based upon their various interpretations of "ervah dabar" in Deut. 24:1. The Hillelites did promote a type of No-fault divorce procedure where if the man was willing to pay the full dowry, he need not disclose the reason for the divorce. Whereas the Shammaites believed that one must disclose the reason for the divorce and then their judges could legislate how much of the dowry the man must pay. But they basically agreed upon what they considered to be morally acceptable or non-acceptable reasons for divorce. Unfortunately, a couple of the rabbinical statements concerning the meaning of "ervah dabar" in Deut. 24:1 are taken out of their literary context and misinterpreted to sound like they were arguing over acceptable reasons. In the Mt. 19 passage, I don't see Jesus even getting into the No-fault divorce debate. Rather, I see Him denouncing the Pharisees' legalistic approach in general, affirming the reason for the bill of divorce to stop the problem of men expelling their wives and not giving them a bill of divorce, and speaking against selfish divorce in general. I just don't see that one can say that the statements about what constituted "ervat devar" were taken out of their literary context because the debate about this continued for generations. And clearly the debates was about what grounds for divorce were acceptable, and what grounds were not. Shammai never accepted the idea that divorce was acceptable for grounds less than adultery if a dowry were paid, no matter what procedure was followed. BTW it is "ervat devar" and not "ervah devar"; the former is in the construct form.

huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/13/2008 10:23:13 PM)
quote: Original Quote tn1) And yet the debate between the Hillelites and Shammaites was not about acceptable or non-acceptable reasons for divorce; rather it was about divorce procedures and overall philosophy which they based upon their various interpretations of "ervah dabar" in Deut. 24:1. The Hillelites did promote a type of No-fault divorce procedure where if the man was willing to pay the full dowry, he need not disclose the reason for the divorce. Whereas the Shammaites believed that one must disclose the reason for the divorce and then their judges could legislate how much of the dowry the man must pay. But they basically agreed upon what they considered to be morally acceptable or non-acceptable reasons for divorce. Unfortunately, a couple of the rabbinical statements concerning the meaning of "ervah dabar" in Deut. 24:1 are taken out of their literary context and misinterpreted to sound like they were arguing over acceptable reasons. In the Mt. 19 passage, I don't see Jesus even getting into the No-fault divorce debate. Rather, I see Him denouncing the Pharisees' legalistic approach in general, affirming the reason for the bill of divorce to stop the problem of men expelling their wives and not giving them a bill of divorce, and speaking against selfish divorce in general. Greetings tn1, Your posts declare that you are a disciple of David Instone Brewer ... Is your Bible his book?: "Divorce and Remarriage in the Bible". Please note that Jesus' teaching of marriage in NT was radically opposed to all forms of Jewish Divorce Law and Customs. The Jesus of the NT taught a very literal COMMANDMENT and it had NOTHING to do with marital DIVORCE: It is known as the doctrine of PERMANENT, INDISSOLUBLE MARRIAGE: Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. All for His Glory ... Huckfinn

DuckTalk -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 6:46:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SealedEternal Because Jesus is my Lord and He says it is not "okay": SealedEternal So then, aside from adultery, divorce is "never" okay in your mind? Even if a woman or a man is beaten or abused?

SealedEternal -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 8:40:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: norak quote: ORIGINAL: SealedEternal Because Jesus is my Lord and He says it is not "okay": SealedEternal So then, aside from adultery, divorce is "never" okay in your mind? Even if a woman or a man is beaten or abused? Jesus said that divorce is never okay for any reason whatsover, and that adultery is the sin one commits when one does so and subsequently remarries: Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery." Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.�* If someone is beaten or abused they need to have that situation dealt with, and if they must leave to protect themselves, they are commanded to either remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to their spouse: 1 Corinthians 7:10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. Marriage according to scripture is a lifelong covenant joined by God and may only be separated by death, so each party is responsible to his or her end of the covenant regardless of the other spouses actions : Genesis 2:21-24 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. Ephesians 5:22-33 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband. We have an example in scripture where a man who divorced his wife is said to still be joined to her by covenant even after the divorce: Malachi 2:13-17 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." You have wearied the LORD with your words Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them," or, "Where is the God of justice?" The man who thought he "divorced" his wife is still regarded as married to her as far as God is concerned. That is why Jesus said that remarriage after a divorce is an extramarital affair. If divorce could separate the marriage bond, that couldn't be the case because adultery only exists where there is a marriage. Since the second so-called "marriage" is an adulterous relationship, by definition the people in it aren't legally married because one or both is already married to someone else, and that is the case because we cannot separate what God has joined except by death. When we enter into the institution of marriage created by God in the beginning, we are subject to the rules He established for that institution. We have therefore agreed to become one with this person for as long as both shall live, and are each responsible to our end of that covenant. I cannot therefore use my wife's sin as an excuse to not uphold my end of the covenant to her, because I didn't agree to be faithful to her as long as she doesn't commit this or that sin, I agreed before God to uphold my end of the covenant of His institution for as long as she lives regardless of circumstances. An unconditional covenant can't be broken based on the other person meeting my conditions, no matter how reasonable they may be. None of us deserve to be beaten up or cheated on, but I didn't enter an institution that says I am bound as long as my wife doesn't beat me or cheat on me, I entered one that states I am bound to her unconditionally for as long as she lives. Therefore if separation occurs for any reason I must either remain unmarried or else reconcile with her, and if either of us tries to remarry while the other lives, that person is committing adultery against the other. SealedEternal

benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 8:51:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: norak quote: ORIGINAL: SealedEternal Because Jesus is my Lord and He says it is not "okay": SealedEternal So then, aside from adultery, divorce is "never" okay in your mind? Even if a woman or a man is beaten or abused? I knew you would get blasted with a lot of verses taken completely out of context with that comment. Please note the verses he doesn't quote; that is actually more revealing than the ones he does quote.

rofaith -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 9:45:13 PM)
Interesting take on divorce and remarriage..... http://divorcehope.com/canchristiansremarryafterdivorce.htm

SealedEternal -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 9:48:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi I knew you would get blasted with a lot of verses taken completely out of context with that comment. Please note the verses he doesn't quote; that is actually more revealing than the ones he does quote. The other 31,000+ are consistent with those and I'd be more than happy to post them too, but I don't think this forum will permit me to post the entire Bible, so I picked out the pertinent ones to my point. None of them were "out of context" either and I'll be happy to post as many verses before or after any of them if you'd like to point out which ones were not given in their proper context. I kept them as brief as possible for the sake of keeping it concise, but I'll post the whole chapters if you think these passages are somehow misleading because they're missing the surrounding context in which they were written, but I honestly see nothing there that changes the meaning of what they are clearly expressing. SealedEternal

SealedEternal -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 9:55:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rofaith Interesting take on divorce and remarriage..... http://divorcehope.com/canchristiansremarryafterdivorce.htm It's based on the false pretext that what God calls adultery is a marriage, when the two concepts are by definition mutually exclusive. God says that all second marriages after a divorce are extramarital affairs and thus not marriages: Mark 10:11-12 *" And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery." Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.�** If it is an adulterous relationship, by definition it is not a legal marriage but rather the sin of someone already married having relations with someone he or she is not married to. Therefore forbidding what God regards as adultery is not forbidding marriage at all, but is forbidding sin. SealedEternal

benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 10:22:05 PM)
quote: It's based on the false pretext that what God calls adultery is a marriage You almost got that right, here let me fix it for you. Your teaching is based on the false pretext that what God calls a marriage is adultery.

SealedEternal -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 10:35:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi You almost got that right, here let me fix it for you. Your teaching is based on the false pretext that what God calls a marriage is adultery. It is God who said "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery", not me. Where did God say that everyone who divorces and remarries is legally married? He never did. SealedEternal

iwillfearnoevil -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 8:37:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SealedEternal Jesus said that divorce is never okay for any reason whatsover, and that adultery is the sin one commits when one does so and subsequently remarries: wrong again SealedEternal, Jesus said and i quote from Matthew 19:9 KJV: *And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.*

huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 9:47:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil quote: ORIGINAL: SealedEternal Jesus said that divorce is never okay for any reason whatsover, and that adultery is the sin one commits when one does so and subsequently remarries: wrong again SealedEternal, Jesus said and i quote from Matthew 19:9 KJV: *And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.* Greetings I WILL ... You obviously believe you are "righteous" on this one .... perhaps you would do well to read the publication at the web site on the botton of this post ... REMEMBER JESUS SAID: "WHEREFORE THEY ARE NO MORE TWAIN BUT ONE FLESH. WHAT THEREFORE GOD HATH JOINED TOGETHER LET NOT MAN PUT ASUNDER" (Mat. 19:6) When a man/woman put asunder their marriage and remarry ... they are breaking God's COMMANDMENT to NOT put asunder and by their remarriage they are committing "adultery." All for His Glory ... Huckfinn

tn1 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 9:48:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huckfinn327 Greetings tn1, Your posts declare that you are a disciple of David Instone Brewer ... Is your Bible his book?: "Divorce and Remarriage in the Bible". Please note that Jesus' teaching of marriage in NT was radically opposed to all forms of Jewish Divorce Law and Customs. The Jesus of the NT taught a very literal COMMANDMENT and it had NOTHING to do with marital DIVORCE: It is known as the doctrine of PERMANENT, INDISSOLUBLE MARRIAGE: Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. All for His Glory ... Huckfinn Hey huckfinn, I'm curious, where have I said that I was "a disciple of David Instone Brewer"? I haven't; rather, I've simply recommended his book, "Divorce and Remarriage in the Bibles; The Social and Literary Context" as a well written scholarly source concerning the social and literary context on the MDR issue. You statement not only misrepresents what I've stated (lies), it is also disrespectful. If you want people to respect you and what you have to share you should show a little respect. Concerning what Jesus taught, He said "What God has joined together, let not man put assunder." The negative in that statement is not an absolute negative as in "cannot" but is a simple negative meaning "should not". Like the commandment to not murder implies that murder is possible, not impossible, the commandment to not divorce or illegally separate implies the it is possible, not impossible. In other words, even "what God has joined together" runs the risk of being torn apart by man's action. According to what Jesus said, marriage is breakable, not indissoluble. And as I've noted before, "one flesh" was an idiomatic phrase that referenced "family". If you are of my "flesh", you are part of my family. Becoming "one flesh" means to become family, it doesn't mean that the couple is in some way joined into one being.

iwillfearnoevil -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 9:53:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huckfinn327 Greetings I WILL ... You obviously believe you are "righteous" on this one .... perhaps you would do well to read the publication at the web site on the botton of this post never said that, i just quoted Jesus as opposed to misquote or ignore i guess. i am sorry, most of the info from the anti-remarriage-always crowd apparently talks about how sinful it is to celebrate Christmas and Easter or for women to wear sneakers so i will have to pass on the eBook you are promoting. most of the teachings along with their antiremarriage teachings are WAAAAY out there.

DuckTalk -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 10:55:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SealedEternal Marriage according to scripture is a lifelong covenant joined by God and may only be separated by death, so each party is responsible to his or her end of the covenant regardless of the other spouses actions : SealedEternal Although I prefer brevity & making a point quickly, I actually read all of the scripture you quoted & I do not disagree with any of it & will say that in all that scripture, you *nailed it* with 8 simple words, "marriage is a lifelong covenant joined by God ". You must then realize that many marriages are joined by man only. Sometimes childishly & God is nowhere in it. There are people who do not realize, accept, learn of or know God until much later after the marriage union, so then.....with that in mind & very true in many cases, how can God possibly have been anywhere in that original covenant?

benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 11:20:00 AM)
quote: And as I've noted before, "one flesh" was an idiomatic phrase that referenced "family". If you are of my "flesh", you are part of I agree with everything you said in your last post, except the part written above. There is no evidence that "one flesh" ever referred to any relationship other than that between a man and a woman. In Genesis where it is first used, it is clear from the context that it didn't mean "family" i.e. "a man will leave his father and mother (his family) and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh" Both in Genesis, and in Jesus' quote of Genesis, it is clear that this statement refers only to the relationship between a man and his wife. I do agree with you that there is no question, from the context of Jesus' statement, that a man can break that marriage covenant; changing what the text says i.e. "let not" into "can not" is completely unjustifiable. However, tearing a marriage apart is something that is very painful, and damaging because it really is very special relationship ordained by God that goes even beyond that of the familial ties. Almost anything possible should be done to avoid the severing of that relationship, if at all possible.

huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 1:15:19 PM)
quote: (Quote tn1) Becoming "one flesh" means to become family, tn1, One family. Yes. And that family exists in whole until DEATH DOES US PART ... divorce cannot destroy the family. Your son or daughter, or wife is youR family until death does you part. Let not man put asunder the family, because he CANNOT. Also your game of logic does not prevent the wisdon of God. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Huckfinn

benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 1:27:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huckfinn327 quote: (Quote tn1) Becoming "one flesh" means to become family, tn1, One family. Yes. And that family exists in whole until DEATH DOES US PART ... divorce cannot destroy the family. Your son or daughter, or wife is youR family until death does you part. Let not man put asunder the family, because he CANNOT. Also your game of logic does not prevent the wisdon of God. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Huckfinn Why then did God say "let not"? He could have avoided a lot of confusion if he had said "can not" if that was what he really meant, couldn't he have? I will trust that he really meant what he said, "What God has joined together, let not man separate." If Jesus had intended anything else, I believe that he would have clearly said so.

Qtman -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 6:27:03 PM)
I do not believe Benelchi or tn1 are advocating divorce. They are just arguing that divorce is possible. I happened in the old days and it still happens. Neither are saying 'Let man put asunder" They are saying Jesus said "Let Not". There is a huge difference between "Let Not" and "Do Not" If Jesus had meant Do Not they and I believe He would have said that. You have read their posts and made the same kind of assumptions you make about scripture. As to the last part of your post I would be careful with wording there. You are coming close to a personal attack on someone's character and that is a TOS. Regards.

SealedEternal -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 9:11:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil quote: ORIGINAL: SealedEternal Jesus said that divorce is never okay for any reason whatsover, and that adultery is the sin one commits when one does so and subsequently remarries: wrong again SealedEternal, Jesus said and i quote from Matthew 19:9 KJV: *And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.* Matthew 19:3-8 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. He said there was a "fornication" provision in the Law of Moses for Old Covenant people, but also said that there are no exceptions whatsoever to New Covenant people: Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery." I was referring to New Covenant marriages since that is the topic here, but perhaps I should have clarified. SealedEternal

SealedEternal -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 10:14:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: misunderstoodduck quote: ORIGINAL: SealedEternal Marriage according to scripture is a lifelong covenant joined by God and may only be separated by death, so each party is responsible to his or her end of the covenant regardless of the other spouses actions : SealedEternal Although I prefer brevity & making a point quickly, I actually read all of the scripture you quoted & I do not disagree with any of it & will say that in all that scripture, you *nailed it* with 8 simple words, "marriage is a lifelong covenant joined by God ". You must then realize that many marriages are joined by man only. Sometimes childishly & God is nowhere in it. There are people who do not realize, accept, learn of or know God until much later after the marriage union, so then.....with that in mind & very true in many cases, how can God possibly have been anywhere in that original covenant? God never said He was going to choose our mates for us, and it is clear that He gives us the freedom to choose for ourselves. Once we enter into His institution however, we are joined into one flesh by Him and subject to His regulations. Choosing foolishly has consequences as most foolish choices do, but it isn't an excuse to not live up to the obligations of that decision. When two people enter the institution of marriage, a new family is created. I can no more divorce my wife as I can one of my children. This is the family God has given me, and I cannot just decide I don't want this one so I'll pretend they don't exist and start a new one. It doesn't work that way. Despite any flaws I and they have, we are one unit and must work through any problems that arise. God didn't choose my family for me as far as I know, but once I chose to start it, it was mine, and He expected me to follow through with my obligations to it. If I abandon them through "divorce" and find a new "wife" to start a new "family" with, Jesus says I am entering an extramarital affair with that other woman, and therefore I am still joined to my original wife and family. As a matter of fact, my wife and I were both unbelievers and quite foolish when we met. Maybe God had a part in bringing us together, I don't know, but He sure didn't appear to be in any way involved in the original covenant between a couple of lost unbelievers. Nevertheless a new family was created and we undertook obligations to His institution to make it work. Thankfully we both found the Lord in time, and are glad we remained faithful to our covenant, when we could have rationalized breaking it at any time by using your excuse. In His Word He doesn't distinguish between believers and unbelievers. Everyone is subject to His commandments. That's why He says that everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery and not just believers who divorce and remarry. If remarriage after a divorce is adultery for believers and unbelievers alike, then both are equally bound together by Him for as long as they both shall live. SealedEternal

benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (10/15/2008 10:44:23 PM)
quote: He said there was a "fornication" provision in the Law of Moses for Old Covenant people, but also said that there are no exceptions whatsoever to New Covenant people: That is one of the most imaginative ways to get around Jesus' clear teaching that I have seen you come up with so far!

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