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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 2:46:08 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
I think it's safe to assume my conclusions ARE not the sames as yours....
How do you interpret "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery"?
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 2:48:09 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
I don't believe that clear, unequivocal, statements such as those I posted need any interpretation, which is why I simply listed them and allowed the reader to come to their own conclusions.
I don't understand the accusation of someone "interpreting" a verse a certain way when that person is simply accepting what it says as truth. For one to believe there are exceptions for remarriage, one must reject most of the verses on marriage as truth in favor of a couple that are taken out of context and don't even apply to us.
One must reject (or come up with their own interpretation) of:
"anyone who marries a divorced person commits adultery"
and
"everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery"
and
"a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives"
and
"if he dies she is free to marry another"
and
"So then if while her husband lives, she be married to another man she shall be called an adulteress"
and
"but if her husband is dead, she is no adulteress even though she is married to another man"
and
"they are no longer two, but one flesh"
and
"everyone who divorces his wife, except for fornication, causes her to become an adulteress"
and
"he who marries the woman who is put away commits adultery"
and
"a woman is not to depart from her husband"
and
"if she does depart she must remain unmarried or be reconciled"
and
"a man is not to divorce his wife"
How anyone comes to the conclusion that somewhere Jesus and Paul are giving allowances for divorce and remarriage is beyond me. Accepting that these words mean what they say has nothing to do with conceit. It takes great humility and an open heart to just accept His words as truth and not try to add to them or edit them. You have to edit every verse above to support the remarriage position. Which is in essence telling God what He "really meant."
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 6/29/2008 3:16:46 PM >
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"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:01:38 PM
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PatHarris
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
If Paul of any of the disciples had actually told believers to leave a second marriage, no matter what, and return to their first marriage, they would have been been really clear about it.
Plus in most likely would have been in violation of Roman law.....
Bottomline: God is not the God of confusion, which seems to be the position you seem to bring to the table.
What do you think Paul and Jesus meant when they said that remarriage after a divorce was the sin of adultery? By definition it can only mean that divorce cannot separate the marriage bond, and only death does so as they taught, because otherwise adultery couldn't be an issue. If they are in adultery then by definition they are not legally married to the person they are currently with, and are legally bound to the one they divorced. Therefore unless they said it was acceptable to remain in an adulterous relationship (which they clearly didn't) then it is implied that the person should stop committing the adultery with the one they are not legally bound to and seek reconciliation with the one they are.
SealedEternal
Implied is a personal interpretation, not fact.
< Message edited by PatHarris -- 6/29/2008 3:09:54 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:02:54 PM
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PatHarris
Posts: 215
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
I think it's safe to assume my conclusions ARE not the sames as yours....
How do you interpret "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery"?
SealedEternal
Single act, not continuous adultery.
_____________________________
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:06:29 PM
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PatHarris
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
I don't believe that clear, unequivocal, statements such as those I posted need any interpretation, which is why I simply listed them and allowed the reader to come to their own conclusions.
I don't understand the accusation of someone "interpreting" a verse a certain way when that person is simply accepting what it says as truth. For one to believe there are exceptions for remarriage, one must reject most of the verses on marriage as truth in favor of a couple that are taken out of context and don't even apply to us.
One must reject (or come up with their own interpretation) of:
"anyone who marries a divorced person commits adultery"
and
"everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery"
and
"a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives"
and
"if he dies she is free to marry another"
and
"So then if while her husband lives, she be married to another man she shall be called an adulteress"
and
"but if her husband is dead, she is no adulteress even though she is married to another man"
and
"they are no longer two, but one flesh"
and
"everyone who divorces his wife, except for fornication, causes her to become and adulteress"
and
"he who marries the woman who is put away commits adultery"
and
"a woman is not to depart from her husband"
and
"if she does depart she must remain unmarried or be reconciled"
and
"a man is not to divorce his wife"
How anyone comes to the conclusion that somewhere Jesus and Paul are giving allowances for divorce and remarriage is beyond me. Accepting that these words mean what they say has nothing to do with conceit. It takes great humility and an open heart to just accept His words as truth and not try to add to them or edit them. "
I don't dispute divorce is wrong, I dispute that "leaving a second marriage" is implied and must be done to make a person right with God.
Here's a great example"
I divorce and remarry. You say I'm in sin and committing continuous adultery.
So 5 years later my second wife dies; now all of sudden by the death of my second spouse I can be right with God.
OR 5 years later my first wife passes away and now I can be right with God.
Based on someones death.
Sounds a little strange doesn't it.
< Message edited by PatHarris -- 6/29/2008 3:18:40 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:23:19 PM
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PatHarris
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Yes scripture is really clear, try reading Deut. 24:1-4. I know you like to skim over that one , but Divorce either is or isn't right.
Telling someone to divorce their second spouse is saying divorce is OK.
Clear enough for you.
_____________________________
So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:23:43 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
I think it's safe to assume my conclusions ARE not the sames as yours....
How do you interpret "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery"?
SealedEternal
Single act, not continuous adultery.
I think you need to explain that a bit more clearly. If the second so-called "marriage" is actually an adulterous affair according to Jesus, then the person by definition is still bound to the original spouse and isn't legally married to the second, but is having an extramarital affair with that person. At what point then does the adulterous affair become a marriage, and the original marriage cease to exist? What if the original spouse was patiently waiting and praying for the wayward spouse to return to them? Wouldn't that be legalized theft of someone elses spouse? Really what you're saying then is that everyone who divorces and remarries isn't committing adultery, but has legally and successfully stolen the spouse Jesus says they were committing adultery with. That would seem to be the opposite of what the text is saying:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:27:57 PM
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PatHarris
Posts: 215
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
I think it's safe to assume my conclusions ARE not the sames as yours....
How do you interpret "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery"?
SealedEternal
Single act, not continuous adultery.
I think you need to explain that a bit more clearly. If the second so-called "marriage" is actually an adulterous affair according to Jesus, then the person by definition is still bound to the original spouse and isn't legally married to the second, but is having an extramarital affair with that person. At what point then does the adulterous affair become a marriage, and the original marriage cease to exist? What if the original spouse was patiently waiting and praying for the wayward spouse to return to them? Wouldn't that be legalized theft of someone elses spouse? Really what you're saying then is that everyone who divorces and remarries isn't committing adultery, but has legally and successfully stolen the spouse Jesus says they were committing adultery with. That would seem to be the opposite of what the text is saying:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
SealedEternal
No explanation will be forthcoming. You are really reaching, you can not steal another person's wife. So it's not theft.... That's a bad argument and you know it.
Again you are adding to scripture, Jesus said adultery, not an adulterous affair, big difference.
< Message edited by PatHarris -- 6/29/2008 3:35:12 PM >
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So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:28:25 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
Yes scripture is really clear, try reading Deut. 24:1-4. I know you like to skim over that one , but Divorce either is or isn't right.
Telling someone to divorce their second spouse is saying divorce is OK.
Clear enough for you.
You're beginning with the false pretext that what God calls adultery is a legal marriage. By definition adultery and marriage are mutually exclusive concepts, and adultery can never be a marriage nor can legal marriage ever be adultery. Therefore you can't have a "divorce" in God's eyes if He never regarded them as married. Ending such a relationship is to repent of the extramarital affair.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:32:07 PM
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PatHarris
Posts: 215
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
Yes scripture is really clear, try reading Deut. 24:1-4. I know you like to skim over that one , but Divorce either is or isn't right.
Telling someone to divorce their second spouse is saying divorce is OK.
Clear enough for you.
You're beginning with the false pretext that what God calls adultery is a legal marriage. By definition adultery and marriage are mutually exclusive concepts, and adultery can never be a marriage nor can legal marriage ever be adultery. Therefore you can't have a "divorce" in God's eyes if He never regarded them as married. Ending such a relationship is to repent of the extramarital affair.
SealedEternal
It's still called a divorce and divorce is either wrong or OK in some circumstances. which is it?
_____________________________
So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:32:33 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
I think it's safe to assume my conclusions ARE not the sames as yours....
How do you interpret "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery"?
SealedEternal
Single act, not continuous adultery.
I think you need to explain that a bit more clearly. If the second so-called "marriage" is actually an adulterous affair according to Jesus, then the person by definition is still bound to the original spouse and isn't legally married to the second, but is having an extramarital affair with that person. At what point then does the adulterous affair become a marriage, and the original marriage cease to exist? What if the original spouse was patiently waiting and praying for the wayward spouse to return to them? Wouldn't that be legalized theft of someone elses spouse? Really what you're saying then is that everyone who divorces and remarries isn't committing adultery, but has legally and successfully stolen the spouse Jesus says they were committing adultery with. That would seem to be the opposite of what the text is saying:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
SealedEternal
No explanation will be forthcoming. You are really reaching, you can not steal another person's wife. So it's not theft.... That's a bad argument and you know it.
Since Jesus says the marriage after the divorce is adultery, then by definition the person is having relations with someone elses spouse. You want us to believe that doing so results in the adulterer successfully taking the other other person's spouse as their own, but to me it sounds like a form of legalized theft.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:39:48 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
Yes scripture is really clear, try reading Deut. 24:1-4. I know you like to skim over that one , but Divorce either is or isn't right.
I'm well aware of that verse, but I'm not under the old covenant... and even if I was that scenario doesn't apply to divorce as we know it. If you believe we are under those laws, do you also believe we must stone our disobedient children and marry our brother's wife if he dies? How exactly do you determine which ones apply to us?
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:40:49 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
Yes scripture is really clear, try reading Deut. 24:1-4. I know you like to skim over that one , but Divorce either is or isn't right.
Telling someone to divorce their second spouse is saying divorce is OK.
Clear enough for you.
You're beginning with the false pretext that what God calls adultery is a legal marriage. By definition adultery and marriage are mutually exclusive concepts, and adultery can never be a marriage nor can legal marriage ever be adultery. Therefore you can't have a "divorce" in God's eyes if He never regarded them as married. Ending such a relationship is to repent of the extramarital affair.
SealedEternal
It's still called a divorce and divorce is either wrong or OK in some circumstances. which is it?
It's called a divorce because that's what the person is doing, but that doesn't change the fact that God says they are still bound to the person after the divorce, and thus the second relationship is an extramarital affair. Therefore although it is wrong to divorce ones legal spouse, it isn't wrong to divorce ones adulterous partner. I think that whether or not they were legally married to the person in God's eyes, is a circumstance that changes whether they can divorce them or not.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:47:37 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
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quote:
Single act, not continuous adultery.
How do you reconcile that with 1cor7:39 that says we are bound for life and free to remarry when our spouse dies? And Paul confirms this in Romans by saying if we do take another spouse while our first spouse lives, we are committing adultery? How do you reconcile that with Jesus saying " anyone who marries a divorced person commits adultery?" That means no divorced person is eligible to remarry because they must still be bound to the first spouse. How is that different than an affair? Taking a person who is still married in God's eyes?
In Malachi we see that the first spouse is still his wife by covenant after divorce... so we know that a divorce doesn't dissolve a marriage in God's eyes.
Most importantly, if it was not considered an affair, we would not have the command to remain unmarried or be reconciled. This command either applies to everyone or no one. Erasmus would also have had no need to concoct his doctrine allowing for remarriage of the innocent party.
Should we really be participating in something that Jesus calls adultery regardless? If scripture says "anyone who marries a divorced person commits adultery" should a never married person really be participating in an act that he calls adultery? That should be appalling to us as Christians. Should Pastors really be participating in a ceremony if the act is defined by Jesus as adultery? That is blasphemous if you ask me...
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 6/29/2008 4:04:28 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:53:43 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
Yes scripture is really clear, try reading Deut. 24:1-4. I know you like to skim over that one , but Divorce either is or isn't right.
I noticed your signature line... it answers this well. If we want to be free from the law, we can't use that same law against our spouse.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:55:13 PM
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PatHarris
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26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
_____________________________
So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:58:33 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
What does God's allowance for virgins to marry have to do with anything?
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:58:36 PM
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PatHarris
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Feel free to keep on.
I've seen NOTHING that convinces me that a second divorce makes a situation right.
If somehow that makes me rebellious or hard hearted in your eyes. I can live with it.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 3:59:52 PM
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PatHarris
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
What does God's allowance for virgins to marry have to do with anything?
SealedEternal
Wasn't just about virgins or divorce would not have been mentioned.
_____________________________
So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 4:02:17 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
I've seen NOTHING that convinces me that a second divorce makes a situation right.
Actually no one here has said that. We just have seen nothing that convinces us that the second marriage is a marriage in the eyes of God, since He calls it adultery- which by definition means we are with someone other than our spouse.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 4:04:24 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
Wasn't just about virgins or divorce would not have been mentioned.
Jesus and Paul both already said it is sin for a divorced person to remarry. They called it adultery.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 4:09:56 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: PatHarris
26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
What does God's allowance for virgins to marry have to do with anything?
SealedEternal
Wasn't just about virgins or divorce would not have been mentioned.
It doesn't say anything about the divorced being permitted to remarry:
1 Corinthians 7:25-26 Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy. I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is.
He is speaking to male virgins here and says if they marry they have not sinned, and adds that if a virgin (written in the female sense in Greek) marries "she has not sinned" either.
During that explanation to the male and female virgins, Paul makes a parenthetical statement about remaining as you are. The married to stay married, and unmarried to stay unmarried. He says nothing about these being free to remarry, and obviously he wouldn't be telling the married that they can marry and not sin, and of course he wasn't contradicting his own commandment that the divorced must remain unmarried or else reconcile with their spouse.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 5:52:12 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Note: in this dictionary entry there are examples given where "when" is used as an adverb, conjunction, pronoun, and noun, and almost all of the definitions given indicate something other than a specific point in time.
when Audio Help /ʰwɛn, wɛn; unstressed ʰwən, wən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hwen, wen; unstressed hwuhn, wuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adverb
1. at what time or period? how long ago? how soon?: When are they to arrive? When did the Roman Empire exist?
2. under what circumstances? upon what occasion?: When is a letter of condolence in order? When did you ever see such a crowd?
–conjunction
3. at what time: to know when to be silent.
4. at the time or in the event that: when we were young; when the noise stops.
5. at any time; whenever: He is impatient when he is kept waiting.
6. upon or after which; and then: We had just fallen asleep when the bell rang.
7. while on the contrary; considering that; whereas: Why are you here when you should be in school?
–pronoun
8. what time: Till when is the store open?
9. which time: They left on Monday, since when we have heard nothing.
–noun
10. the time of anything: the when and the where of an act.
Main Entry: when
Part of Speech: conjunction
Synonyms: although, during, if, meanwhile, though, until, whereas, while
And they all indicate the time frame as I said.
You claim that the dictionary defintions above "all indicate the time frame as [you] said."
And yet, the following is what you actually said:
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
The word "when" by definition indicates the time because it is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happens.
and
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
When is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happens.
So my question is, did you forget what you said, or are you just having as much difficulty understanding the dictionary as you do the scriptures?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 8:57:42 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
So my question is, did you forget what you said, or are you just having as much difficulty understanding the dictionary as you do the scriptures?
Benelchi,
Do you have difficulty understanding this verse? You still haven't given your interpretation of it. Do you accept this verse as true as it is written? Please just answer YES or NO...
Luke 16:18
"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
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"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 9:25:11 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
No explanation will be forthcoming. You are really reaching, you can not steal another person's wife. So it's not theft.... That's a bad argument and you know it.
Actually Benelchi pretty much confirmed this concept a while back by saying that divorce (if not Biblical) does not end a marriage, and those people are still married in the eyes of God after the divorce. But the "adulterous act" of marrying another makes the new person their lawful spouse.
Which is basically the same as beginning an adulterous affair with one who is still married in the eyes of God, coveting and keeping what we stole- and by doing that they become our lawful spouse. Scary stuff indeed...  Does all other property that we steal become legally ours as well?
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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