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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 8:20:07 PM
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pickupyourmat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
And yet, a first marriage entered into sinfully becomes lawful? Why, because of it's placement on a timeline?
I think this has been addressed many times, but the first marriage is the only one that is lawful- because we are not free to take another spouse since we are bound to the first one til death- not until divorce. 1cor7:39, Rom 7:2-3, Luke 16:18
That would be kinda scary if we had no way of knowing if we married the right person and might actually be in fornication and not really be married in God's eyes because we married the wrong person (sinfully).
I think you're missing the point here. Many people get married for ignoble reasons. If you make a blanket statement that says ALL FIRST marriages are the only ones that are lawful in the eyes of God, then you are not taking into account the sinful behavior of man.
For example and this was mentioned before. The woman who marries a man so he can get his green card and for no other reason. They live together as man and wife until the government has been satisfied and then they divorce. The man has gotten his desired citizenship and the woman, her fee. They keep up the charade for another year to ensure that the government will no longer question them. They divorce as planned. A year later the woman becomes a Christian.
Would you instruct this woman to consider that first marriage still binding, her divorce invalid and have her look for this man in order to re-establish this marriage?
Let's say the gentleman has gotten married since the divorce and is raising a family. He gets saved. Is he now to divorce his current wife, leave his family and try to go back and re-establish the relationship with this woman?
_____________________________
"It's not my opinion but the word of God." That's the same thing Jim Jones said.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 8:41:45 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
And yet, a first marriage entered into sinfully becomes lawful? Why, because of it's placement on a timeline?
I think this has been addressed many times, but the first marriage is the only one that is lawful- because we are not free to take another spouse since we are bound to the first one til death- not until divorce. 1cor7:39, Rom 7:2-3, Luke 16:18
That would be kinda scary if we had no way of knowing if we married the right person and might actually be in fornication and not really be married in God's eyes because we married the wrong person (sinfully).
I think you're missing the point here. Many people get married for ignoble reasons. If you make a blanket statement that says ALL FIRST marriages are the only ones that are lawful in the eyes of God, then you are not taking into account the sinful behavior of man.
For example and this was mentioned before. The woman who marries a man so he can get his green card and for no other reason. They live together as man and wife until the government has been satisfied and then they divorce. The man has gotten his desired citizenship and the woman, her fee. They keep up the charade for another year to ensure that the government will no longer question them. They divorce as planned. A year later the woman becomes a Christian.
Would you instruct this woman to consider that first marriage still binding, her divorce invalid and have her look for this man in order to re-establish this marriage?
Let's say the gentleman has gotten married since the divorce and is raising a family. He gets saved. Is he now to divorce his current wife, leave his family and try to go back and re-establish the relationship with this woman?
You can come up with all sorts of pragmatic reasons why it would seem logical to go against God's commandment to honor the marriage covenant, because sin creates all sorts of difficult scenarios. God however is clearly most concerned about maintaining the integrety of the institution rather than suiting the desires of one individual, because once we allow the institution to be degraded, as it has, the whole thing is destroyed. So if someone chooses poorly in their youth, they will have to suffer the consequences of that error rather than throwing out the whole institution in order to give that one person a redo to the detriment of the whole institution.
Romans 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
1 Corinthians 7:10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Genesis 2:21-24 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Ephesians 5:22-33 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 9:01:43 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
Let's say the gentleman has gotten married since the divorce and is raising a family. He gets saved. Is he now to divorce his current wife, leave his family and try to go back and re-establish the relationship with this woman?
I would say the woman he is with is not his wife, and unfortunately sin always has consequences that affect others as well.
Let's take this scenario....
A man is having an affair and gets the woman pregnant (it happens). He is convicted/repents, is committed to his marriage and wants to fulfill the vows he made to God. Would you tell him he should leave his wife and go be with the woman he got pregnant since there is a child involved and that would be the more ethical thing to do? Rather than going back to the wife who is remaining faithful to her vows in obedience to God?
It is never God's will that we break our vows to Him (innocent or "guilty"). He expects us to fulfill them... It is not God's will that we live in bitterness/unforgiveness... it is not God's will that we violate a covenant.
A follower of Christ should NEVER remain irreconcilable... that's why the command to remain unmarried or be reconciled makes so much sense.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 9:11:14 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 260
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Sealed,
You can quote those same scriptures a million more times in every single posting you add to this thread but that will not make your interpretation correct.
_____________________________
"It's not my opinion but the word of God." That's the same thing Jim Jones said.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 9:47:42 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 260
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quote:
I would say the woman he is with is not his wife, and unfortunately sin always has consequences that affect others as well.
So what you're saying here is that even though they both entered into a marriage sinfully, that does not change the fact that they are married?
It seems to me that what's happening is we're choosing what sinful scenario validates of invalidates a marriage. A couple can get married with the foulest of sinful intentions and that marriage is valid because as Car2ner mentioned, it happened first.
A second marriage after divorce is invalid, not because of their motives or intent but rather because it was second.
In trying to put it plainly, the heart of the man or woman prior to uniting themselves does not matter at all since this is the first time they have been married. The man or woman who has married for the second time and have a loving Christian marriage and home is rendered invalid because it is second. So the validity of a marriage truly is, from what your saying, a matter of where it falls on a timeline - first or second and has nothing to do with the reason for marrying, whether it's approved by God or not, etc. That doesn't seem strange to you because it really does to me.
quote:
A man is having an affair and gets the woman pregnant (it happens). He is convicted/repents, is committed to his marriage and wants to fulfill the vows he made to God. Would you tell him he should leave his wife and go be with the woman he got pregnant since there is a child involved and that would be the more ethical thing to do? Rather than going back to the wife who is remaining faithful to her vows in obedience to God?
The problem with this scenario is that a divorce has not taken place. You said this man is married and had an affair. I understand that according to you a divorce doesn't matter, but you must realize that merely putting this example forward gives the reader the picture of a married man who has committed while adultery while still married (not divorced).
In answer to your question, I absolutely would not tell him to leave his marriage to be with this woman.
quote:
It is never God's will that we break our vows to Him (innocent or "guilty"). He expects us to fulfill them... It is not God's will that we live in bitterness/unforgiveness... it is not God's will that we violate a covenant.
This actually is not true. Let me share the Law that God established concerning vows. In the OT God gave the authority to the Father and Husband to cancel out any vow they hear and disagree with made by the Daughter or the Wife and both women were freed from having to fulfill those vows. In other words, God permitted a woman to not fulfill her vow based on her husband's word and the same for the Father. - Numbers 30
One further note is that this passage does not go into detail as to what the vow was. We cannot assume the vows were all bad or that the husbands/fathers were doing the right thing when they canceled them.
quote:
A follower of Christ should NEVER remain irreconcilable... that's why the command to remain unmarried or be reconciled makes so much sense.
If you believe this then you must completely ignore Deuteronomy 24. There's no way you can except that God says the man must not marry the first wife after he has divorced her and she has remarried. Have you decided to throw that Scripture out? God himself, through the law, made that marriage irreconcilable.
Your definition of irreconcilable seems to be never remarrying but somewhere in there your trying to send the message that the two parties should, until death, remain in a posture of willingness to reconcile and be married again no matter what has taken place in between during the time of separation. There are many Christian woman who do not believe in remarrying and had husbands who divorced them and they praise God everyday for being released from the bondage and they do not beg the Lord to bring these men back but rather pray for their salvation. Are you saying these woman are not genuine followers of Christ because they have no desire to be reconciled to these men?
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 6/28/2008 9:59:50 PM >
_____________________________
"It's not my opinion but the word of God." That's the same thing Jim Jones said.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 10:30:22 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
Sealed,
You can quote those same scriptures a million more times in every single posting you add to this thread but that will not make your interpretation correct.
I didn't, and don't need to interpret them because they speak for themselves and can only have one possible interpretation.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 10:33:40 PM
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pickupyourmat
Posts: 260
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
Sealed,
You can quote those same scriptures a million more times in every single posting you add to this thread but that will not make your interpretation correct.
I didn't, and don't need to interpret them because they speak for themselves and can only have one possible interpretation.
SealedEternal
Well if that were honestly the case, this thread would not exist.  If you really believed there was only one interpretation, that being exactly what we read, you would not have to perform all the linguistic gymnastics that you do.
Something as simple as the word "When" becomes a debatable issue. Everyone knows that if I said, "When I was married, my husband used to buy me ice cream cones every Sunday", it is automatically understood that I am referring to the period during my marriage. There is not distinction made as to whether it was an hour after the ceremony or the day after we moved in and consummated the marriage, or seven years later. If the truth be told, no one would even ask such a ridiculous question!
In order for your interpretation to even seem half feasible, you have to specify when "when" is. I mean really! Who does that when the read? Common readers don't even do all that.
< Message edited by pickupyourmat -- 6/28/2008 10:51:56 PM >
_____________________________
"It's not my opinion but the word of God." That's the same thing Jim Jones said.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 11:02:49 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
If you believe this then you must completely ignore Deuteronomy 24. There's no way you can except that God says the man must not marry the first wife after he has divorced her and she has remarried. Have you decided to throw that Scripture out? God himself, through the law, made that marriage irreconcilable.
You're really pulling these verses out of context here and confusing legal Old Covenant annulments of a marriage covenant due to a woman falsely masquerading as a virgin, with New Covenant divorces of fully married couples and subsequent remarriages, which Jesus says are actually extramarital affairs. To say that what you're doing is comparing apples to oranges would be a huge understatement. First of all, no one here is practicing the Old Covenant Law, so this Law has no application, and if one claims to be under the rigid Mosaic Laws for hard hearted unregenerate Jews, then they must forgo the grace of Jesus Christ in the New Covenant. You can't both demand grace and condemn your spouse with the Law at the same time.
Secondly, there was a specific process to determine if the woman had lied about her virginity, and unless this was proven to be a fact , the divorce was not valid. That's why Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matthew 19 that the man who divorced his wife apart from the cause of fornication was committing adultery, and in Matthew 5:32 said that he was making her commit adultery as well as her next husband. So Deuteronomy 24 didn't apply to marriages that weren't for the cause of premarital fornication discovered when the man married his wife, and all other divorces and remarriages were actually adulterous affairs because the marriages were not legally dissolved. If they were adulterous affairs then by definituion they were never legal marriages. Therefore it has never been illegal to leave an adulterous affair and return to the woman one is legally joined to, and Deuteronomy 24 never meant to imply anything of the sort.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 11:17:19 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
Well if that were honestly the case, this thread would not exist. If you really believed there was only one interpretation, that being exactly what we read, you would not have to perform all the linguistic gymnastics that you do.
I believe God only has one interpretation and is capable of articulating it, but it is the deceitful heart of man that refuses to accept His Words. I didn't interpret any of those verses, so if you disagree with them your issue is with God and not me.
quote:
Something as simple as the word "When" becomes a debatable issue.
Not really. It has a specific meaning that can be found in any dictionary, but some refuse to accept that it means what it does.
quote:
Everyone knows that if I said, "When I was married, my husband used to buy me ice cream cones every Sunday", it is automatically understood that I am referring to the period during my marriage. There is not distinction made as to whether it was an hour after the ceremony or the day after we moved in and consummated the marriage, or seven years later. If the truth be told, no one would even ask such a ridiculous question!
I agree because the context "When I was married, my husband used to buy me ice cream cones every Sunday", dictates that the time frame being described is the duration of the marriage. On the other hand, if you wrote "When my husband took me and married me he bought me an ice cream cone" it would denote a specific point in time rather than the duration of the marriage. "When" always indicates a time frame by definition, but the time frame changes with the context.
quote:
In order for your interpretation to even seem half feasible, you have to specify when "when" is. I mean really! Who does that when the read? Common readers don't even do all that.
Most people and every dictionary understands what "when" means, but some people change the context and try to claim it doesn't really mean what it means. By definition it always indicates a time frame, but the context always indicates what time frame that is. That's the whole purpose for the existence of the word.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 11:45:11 PM
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pickupyourmat
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Sealed,
I absolutely will not go back and argue these same points with you yet again. They have been refuted time and time again. You don't accept it and that is fine My posting was really responding to KeepingFaith and that is who I would like to continue a discourse with. My apologies for entering into a dialog with you that I am now discontinuing. You and I have already gone through all the Scriptures and posted why we do not agree. No need to repeat.
_____________________________
"It's not my opinion but the word of God." That's the same thing Jim Jones said.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 12:11:07 AM
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pickupyourmat
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On the word "When" & "Some"
Deuteronomy 24:1
"When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her...
This verse does not give any indication as to the time (when) this wife ceases to find favor in her husbands eyes. One would have to impose a specific time and then force interpretation from that point. If left with the Lexicon and the Bible, you would be unable to come up with a specific time.
"Some Indecency" is not specifically defined for us either. Again, someone would have to label it a specific act and then go further with an interpretation. If left with just a lexicon and the Bible, one would be hard pressed to positively define what "some indecency" was.
We must not forget the whole point of this passage to begin with. It is about not being able to return to the former spouse when a woman has been divorced, married and divorced again. This passage is not dealing with the morality of divorce. The reasons for divorce are not approved or condemned. The passage is stating the case and giving instruction as to what to do in this case.
God says once she is married again, if she gets divorced, she cannot return to the former, period. Anyone then who teaches others to divorce from their second marriage and return to the first after the divorce is violating this very plain and easily understandable passage. This passage is not even addressing the validity of the second marriage! It is stating the facts of the situation.
Complicating the Word of God to prove a particular doctrine is simply wrong and prayerfully many will see through it and reject this utterly false teaching.
_____________________________
"It's not my opinion but the word of God." That's the same thing Jim Jones said.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 8:26:30 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
On the word "When" & "Some"
Deuteronomy 24:1
"When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her...
This verse does not give any indication as to the time (when) this wife ceases to find favor in her husbands eyes.
Yes it does. The word "when" by definition indicates the time because it is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happens. In this case it says it is referring to the time that "a man took his wife and married her".
quote:
One would have to impose a specific time and then force interpretation from that point. If left with the Lexicon and the Bible, you would be unable to come up with a specific time.
Not true. The text itself specifically says "WHEN" it is referring to, so the specific time has been estalished.
quote:
"Some Indecency" is not specifically defined for us either. Again, someone would have to label it a specific act and then go further with an interpretation. If left with just a lexicon and the Bible, one would be hard pressed to positively define what "some indecency" was.
That is true if the term was written in a vaccum, but we have the context to discern what this euphemism is referring to. The term itself is broad and refers to indecency, uncleanness, or nakedness, but in the context of "When a man takes a wife and marries her" it is clear what is being implied. Broad terms have no specific discernable meaning on their own, but when they are used in the context of a sentence we are able to discern what the writer was implying with the term. In this case, it was a euphemism for a woman who was discovered to be unchaste:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
quote:
We must not forget the whole point of this passage to begin with. It is about not being able to return to the former spouse when a woman has been divorced, married and divorced again. This passage is not dealing with the morality of divorce. The reasons for divorce are not approved or condemned. The passage is stating the case and giving instruction as to what to do in this case.
I don't necessarily disagree, but it is the advocates of divorce and remarriage that always want to bring up this verse and Matthew 19:9 where Jesus refers to it, in order to suggest that it gives a loophole to the unconditional covenant of marriage. That passage is giving a regulation to hard hearted, unregenerate, Old Covenant people to deal with the situation of women who fornicate and husbands who divorce them for it and then want to claim them back after they married again. It has nothing whatsoever to do with New Covenant Christians, and isn't relevent to the debate on this forum, but unfortunately the divorce and remarriage advocates always try to use it out of context to make their case.
quote:
God says once she is married again, if she gets divorced, she cannot return to the former, period. Anyone then who teaches others to divorce from their second marriage and return to the first after the divorce is violating this very plain and easily understandable passage.
If you were referring to Old Covenant men that found indecency in their wives when they married them that would be true, but Jesus also said to the Old Covenant men that if they divorced apart from the cause of fornication of their wives, that they were committing adultery by remarrying, and making their wives commit adultery, as well as the person who married their divorced wives. Therefore by definition these "divorces" that weren't done properly by the Old Covenant Law, did not end the original marriage, because by definition adultery is the sin of married people having extramarital relationships. You're confusing legal divorces for Old Covenant people, with illegal ones and subsequent adulterous affairs. If the person is now in adultery, then by definition their divorce never separated what God had joined, and now they are having extramarital relations with someone who is not his or her spouse, so it cannot be violating the Law to stop having the affair, and to return to ones true spouse.
quote:
Complicating the Word of God to prove a particular doctrine is simply wrong and prayerfully many will see through it and reject this utterly false teaching.
Amen.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 10:24:06 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3001
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: pickupyourmat
On the word "When" & "Some"
Deuteronomy 24:1
"When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her...
This verse does not give any indication as to the time (when) this wife ceases to find favor in her husbands eyes.
Yes it does. The word "when" by definition indicates the time because it is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happens. In this case it says it is referring to the time that "a man took his wife and married her".
quote:
One would have to impose a specific time and then force interpretation from that point. If left with the Lexicon and the Bible, you would be unable to come up with a specific time.
Not true. The text itself specifically says "WHEN" it is referring to, so the specific time has been estalished.
quote:
"Some Indecency" is not specifically defined for us either. Again, someone would have to label it a specific act and then go further with an interpretation. If left with just a lexicon and the Bible, one would be hard pressed to positively define what "some indecency" was.
That is true if the term was written in a vaccum, but we have the context to discern what this euphemism is referring to. The term itself is broad and refers to indecency, uncleanness, or nakedness, but in the context of "When a man takes a wife and marries her" it is clear what is being implied. Broad terms have no specific discernable meaning on their own, but when they are used in the context of a sentence we are able to discern what the writer was implying with the term. In this case, it was a euphemism for a woman who was discovered to be unchaste:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
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We must not forget the whole point of this passage to begin with. It is about not being able to return to the former spouse when a woman has been divorced, married and divorced again. This passage is not dealing with the morality of divorce. The reasons for divorce are not approved or condemned. The passage is stating the case and giving instruction as to what to do in this case.
I don't necessarily disagree, but it is the advocates of divorce and remarriage that always want to bring up this verse and Matthew 19:9 where Jesus refers to it, in order to suggest that it gives a loophole to the unconditional covenant of marriage. That passage is giving a regulation to hard hearted, unregenerate, Old Covenant people to deal with the situation of women who fornicate and husbands who divorce them for it and then want to claim them back after they married again. It has nothing whatsoever to do with New Covenant Christians, and isn't relevent to the debate on this forum, but unfortunately the divorce and remarriage advocates always try to use it out of context to make their case.
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God says once she is married again, if she gets divorced, she cannot return to the former, period. Anyone then who teaches others to divorce from their second marriage and return to the first after the divorce is violating this very plain and easily understandable passage.
If you were referring to Old Covenant men that found indecency in their wives when they married them that would be true, but Jesus also said to the Old Covenant men that if they divorced apart from the cause of fornication of their wives, that they were committing adultery by remarrying, and making their wives commit adultery, as well as the person who married their divorced wives. Therefore by definition these "divorces" that weren't done properly by the Old Covenant Law, did not end the original marriage, because by definition adultery is the sin of married people having extramarital relationships. You're confusing legal divorces for Old Covenant people, with illegal ones and subsequent adulterous affairs. If the person is now in adultery, then by definition their divorce never separated what God had joined, and now they are having extramarital relations with someone who is not his or her spouse, so it cannot be violating the Law to stop having the affair, and to return to ones true spouse.
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Complicating the Word of God to prove a particular doctrine is simply wrong and prayerfully many will see through it and reject this utterly false teaching.
Amen.
SealedEternal
When it is clear that your definition of "when" differs significantly from the definition we find our dictionaries, common sense requires one to accept the definition in the dictionary and reject yours.
When the translators who chose the word "when" in the translation of this text reject your interpretation and your definition of "when", common sense requires one to reject your definition.
When it is clear that by substituting the phrase "as long as" for the word "when" in a sentence we can still convey the same intended meaning then we must conclude that this valid use of the word "when" and reject your overly narrow definition.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 10:57:11 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
When it is clear that your definition of "when" differs significantly from the definition we find our dictionaries, common sense requires one to accept the definition in the dictionary and reject yours.
So you deny that When is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happens? What dictionary are you reading? Every one I know of says just that.
quote:
When the translators who chose the word "when" in the translation of this text reject your interpretation and your definition of "when", common sense requires one to reject your definition.
Which translators of what translation are you referring to? There are hundreds or maybe thousands of people involved in the countless English translations of the Bible, and I don't even know what their names are, much less what they believed Deuteronomy 24 was referring to, so I have no idea what percentage of them agree or disagree with me, or that they reject my position as a plausible interpretation or not. All I know it that they believed the text says that the man found her indecent "When he married her" which is what I have been saying and you have been trying to deny:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
quote:
When it is clear that by substituting the phrase "as long as" for the word "when" in a sentence we can still convey the same intended meaning then we must conclude that this valid use of the word "when" and reject your overly narrow definition.
Obviously if you start substituting phrases you change the meaning of the text. What does that prove?
Deuteronomy 24 cannot possibly say "as long as a man takes a wife and marries her" because it doesn't make any sense in the context. Taking a wife and marrying her is an event that happens at a point in time, which is why the translators rightly used the term "When" rather than "as long as" in that verse. If the text was attempting to say that a man could divorce his wife for as long as he was married to her it would have said so, but it doesn't. It instead says it is indicating the point in time (When) that he took his wife and married her. I doubt the translators of this verse would reject their own translation. If they thought it said that a man could divorce his wife for as long as he was married to her they would have properly translated it as such rather than saying he divorced her "When" he took her and married her.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 11:02:07 AM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
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I would say the woman he is with is not his wife, and unfortunately sin always has consequences that affect others as well.
Pickupyourmat:
So what you're saying here is that even though they both entered into a marriage sinfully, that does not change the fact that they are married?
It seems to me that what's happening is we're choosing what sinful scenario validates of invalidates a marriage. A couple can get married with the foulest of sinful intentions and that marriage is valid because as Car2ner mentioned, it happened first.
A second marriage after divorce is invalid, not because of their motives or intent but rather because it was second.
No, what I am saying is that there is no such thing as a second marriage after divorce. Jesus has called this entering into adultery- not a marriage. I think you are confusing sin with a covenant. The second one cannot be a valid covenant since the first covenant is valid until death. 1cor7:39, Rom 7:2-3
It is sin to marry an unbeliever, but He also commands us to stay with the unbeliever. We don't get to say that if we married the "wrong person"- God didn't recognize it. Marrying an unbeliever would fall in that category and God still counts it. Using that reasoning, we would never really know if God joined our marriages and if we were in a valid covenant. He has made it very simple- man has muddied His clear words.
In regards to whether someone should remain reconcilable. I believe if someone is repentant they should be forgiven and reconciliation should be an option. Whether someone is praying for that or not is up to them, but as followers of Christ we should not shut the door on others and give them a timeline to repent.... since Jesus doesn't and we should reflect the same mercy and grace He gives us- which is until death.
What do you believe the command to remain unmarried is there for? How do you reconcile that command with your position? So far no one has provided an answer that doesn't contradict what they teach.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 6/29/2008 11:11:18 AM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 11:20:47 AM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Complicating the Word of God to prove a particular doctrine is simply wrong and prayerfully many will see through it and reject this utterly false teaching.
I think we can see which teaching aligns with a faithful covenant-keeping God who loves/forgives unconditionally and commands us to do that above all... Who committed to us "the message of RECONCILIATION- not counting men's sins against them." He even uses the example of an adulteress and tells us not to cast stones unless we are without sin. So I don't see any reasons for divorce. Jesus who IS without sin wouldn't divorce us. We shouldn't be like the Pharisees who wanted to follow the letter of the law and stone the adulteress.
I think we know that a teaching that has resulted in the church looking no different than the world- or worse and has led to such destruction of families definitely didn't come from God.
Our divorce rate should be a fraction of the world's if we really have the fruit of the Spirit. That makes us a joke to the world we should be witnessing to.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 6/29/2008 12:40:06 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 11:33:14 AM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
When it is clear that your definition of "when" differs significantly from the definition we find our dictionaries, common sense requires one to accept the definition in the dictionary and reject yours.
When the translators who chose the word "when" in the translation of this text reject your interpretation and your definition of "when", common sense requires one to reject your definition.
When it is clear that by substituting the phrase "as long as" for the word "when" in a sentence we can still convey the same intended meaning then we must conclude that this valid use of the word "when" and reject your overly narrow definition.
This point becomes irrelevant if one cannot reconcile their interpretation of this verse with all of the other verses that contradict their interpretation. Jesus overruled these laws anyway and threw them out. One can see who is misusing scripture to promote a doctrine.
It is obvious it was meant for the Jews since it was mentioned twice in Matthew and not at all in Mark, Luke or Corinthians.
How about looking at a verse like this... that is clear and consistent with all the others. There is no explaining this verse away.
Luke 16:18
"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 6/29/2008 11:41:16 AM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 11:36:26 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3001
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
So you deny that When is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happens? What dictionary are you reading? Every one I know of says just that.
What a small circle of friends you must have! Most everyone I know can actually use a dictionary.
Oh, and yes I do deny "that "when" is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happened" because that narrow definition is not something I find in any dictionary. Please define one source that either defines "when" this narrowly, or indicates that this is the only purpose for which "when" is "specifically designed". Although "when" can indicate a point in time that an event took place, and it can be used as an adverb, absolutely no dictionary that I am aware ignores the other definitions and grammatical uses of the word "when".
Note: in this dictionary entry there are examples given where "when" is used as an adverb, conjunction, pronoun, and noun, and almost all of the definitions given indicate something other than a specific point in time.
when Audio Help /ʰwɛn, wɛn; unstressed ʰwən, wən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hwen, wen; unstressed hwuhn, wuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adverb
1. at what time or period? how long ago? how soon?: When are they to arrive? When did the Roman Empire exist?
2. under what circumstances? upon what occasion?: When is a letter of condolence in order? When did you ever see such a crowd?
–conjunction
3. at what time: to know when to be silent.
4. at the time or in the event that: when we were young; when the noise stops.
5. at any time; whenever: He is impatient when he is kept waiting.
6. upon or after which; and then: We had just fallen asleep when the bell rang.
7. while on the contrary; considering that; whereas: Why are you here when you should be in school?
–pronoun
8. what time: Till when is the store open?
9. which time: They left on Monday, since when we have heard nothing.
–noun
10. the time of anything: the when and the where of an act.
So again,
When it is clear that your definition of "when" differs significantly from the definition we find our dictionaries, common sense requires one to accept the definition in the dictionary and reject yours.
When the translators who chose the word "when" in the translation of this text reject your interpretation and your definition of "when", common sense requires one to reject your definition.
When it is clear that by substituting the phrase "as long as" for the word "when" in a sentence we can still convey the same intended meaning then we must conclude that this valid use of the word "when" and reject your overly narrow definition.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 6/29/2008 11:43:56 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 12:04:00 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
What a small circle of friends you must have! Most everyone I know can actually use a dictionary.
I thought Sealed was referring to the dictionaries... not his friends.
What does your dictionary say about this verse? Could you give us a word for word translation?
Luke 16:18
"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 1:11:59 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
So you deny that When is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happens? What dictionary are you reading? Every one I know of says just that.
What a small circle of friends you must have! Most everyone I know can actually use a dictionary.
What is that supposed to mean, and what does it have to do with anything I said?
quote:
Oh, and yes I do deny "that "when" is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happened" because that narrow definition is not something I find in any dictionary. Please define one source that either defines "when" this narrowly, or indicates that this is the only purpose for which "when" is "specifically designed". Although "when" can indicate a point in time that an event took place, and it can be used as an adverb, absolutely no dictionary that I am aware ignores the other definitions and grammatical uses of the word "when".
If when doesn't indicate the time frame of something, what other purpose does it have? What dictionary a | | |
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