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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 9:21:05 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1651
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
quote:
The Law required two witnesses in order for the death penalty to be carried out; however, the prescription given for divorce in the Law had no such requirement for witnesses.
You state a fact as though it changes the fact that the death is the prescription for adultery under the law. Stating the fact that there is no requirement of witnesses for divorce does not change the fact that death is still the prescription for adultery. Death is still the perscription for adultery under the law. If we say that Jesus says divorce is the perscription for adultery under the law, then we lie. Did Jesus come to fullfill the law or change it?
Let me try and put it a little more clearly:
Fact: Under the OT Law the death penalty was not an option unless there were two witnesses. In other words the prescription under the Law did not permit the death penalty for most cases of adultery i.e. those that did not have two witnesses.
Fact: Under the OT Law divorce was permitted, and the requirement for divorce was for a husband to give a certificate of divorce to his wife, not to impose the death penalty.
The only open question is what were the grounds required for divorce?
I personally believe that the standard upheld by Jesus in Mt. 5 and 19 was that nothing less than continual unrepentant sexual infidelity would be grounds for divorce. What do you believe the grounds for divorce were in Duet. 24:1-4, and what evidence to you have to backup that claim?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 9:30:20 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 965
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
It is very clear that the OT Law did allow for divorce, the only question really is what were the grounds for which a divorce was allowed i.e. what was the proper understanding of a 'indecent thing' in Duet. 24:1-4.
The proper understanding being that it only applied to an 'indecent thing' discovered "When a man "lâqach" and "bâ‛al" her.
quote:
By the first century Rabi's like Hillel had interpreted an 'indecent thing' to mean almost anything a person could dream up.
Isn't that essentially the final conclusion of your position, or is there a divorce and remarriage that you consider to be illigitimate?
quote:
Jesus corrected this gross misinterpretation when he allowed divorce only in the case of sexual infidelity. In other words, Jesus fulfilled the all of the Law (including the Law given in Duet. 24:1-4; he did not change it.
Yes, but you forgot the rest of what the Law stipulated:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries (bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
quote:
One interpretive challenge for those that hold your perspective is in understanding how it can be said that a remarried spouse should divorce and return to a former spouse when doing so seems to be so strongly condemned in Scripture i.e. Duet. 24:1-4. If Jesus didn't come to abolish or change the Law, how can one arrive at this interpretation?
It's not a challenge at all since Jesus said that we cannot separate the first marriage to begin with, and that the second is merely an adulterous affair, or in other words a married person having sexual relations with someone who is not his or her spouse:
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? 6 "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
Therefore we are not advocating leaving a legal marriage under the law and returning to someone who was legally divorced under the Old Covenant Law, but rather we are advocating ending what Jesus specifically defined as adultery, and returning to the one who He said He joined us to.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 9:38:39 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 965
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Let me try and put it a little more clearly:
Fact: Under the OT Law the death penalty was not an option unless there were two witnesses. In other words the prescription under the Law did not permit the death penalty for most cases of adultery i.e. those that did not have two witnesses.
Fact: Under the OT Law divorce was permitted, and the requirement for divorce was for a husband to give a certificate of divorce to his wife, not to impose the death penalty.
No, the second was not a "fact". The requirement for divorce was to find "a thing of indecency" (fornication) in ones wife, "WHEN HE "lâqach" AND "bâ‛al" HER." The certificate of divorce simply made it official.
quote:
The only open question is what were the grounds required for divorce?
To which we must look to the text:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries (bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
quote:
I personally believe that the standard upheld by Jesus in Mt. 5 and 19 was that nothing less than continual unrepentant sexual infidelity would be grounds for divorce. What do you believe the grounds for divorce were in Duet. 24:1-4, and what evidence to you have to backup that claim?
Where in the text of the Old Covenant Law do you claim we will find this continual unrepentant sexual infidelity provision?
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 9:43:06 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1651
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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SealedEternal,
Why do you continue to try and make invalid arguments based on the Hebrew vocabulary, when you have made it so painfully clear that you have never studied Hebrew?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Let me try and put it a little more clearly:
Fact: Under the OT Law the death penalty was not an option unless there were two witnesses. In other words the prescription under the Law did not permit the death penalty for most cases of adultery i.e. those that did not have two witnesses.
Fact: Under the OT Law divorce was permitted, and the requirement for divorce was for a husband to give a certificate of divorce to his wife, not to impose the death penalty.
No, the second was not a "fact". The requirement for divorce was to find "a thing of indecency" (fornication) in ones wife, "WHEN HE "lâqach" AND "bâ‛al" HER." The certificate of divorce simply made it official.
quote:
The only open question is what were the grounds required for divorce?
To which we must look to the text:
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries (bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
quote:
I personally believe that the standard upheld by Jesus in Mt. 5 and 19 was that nothing less than continual unrepentant sexual infidelity would be grounds for divorce. What do you believe the grounds for divorce were in Duet. 24:1-4, and what evidence to you have to backup that claim?
Where in the text of the Old Covenant Law do you claim we will find this continual unrepentant sexual infidelity provision?
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 9:48:48 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1146
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
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benelchi,
quote:
Fact: Under the OT Law the death penalty was not an option unless there were two witnesses. In other words the prescription under the Law did not permit the death penalty for most cases of adultery i.e. those that did not have two witnesses.
The lack of witnesses simply proves that you cannot charge the individual with adultery. But death is still the penalty for adultery. The penalty for adultery is still death.
If Jesus Christ is saying that divorce is the remedy for adultery, then he changed the law. But He came to fullfill it.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 9:53:57 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 965
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Why do you continue to try and make invalid arguments based on the Hebrew vocabulary, when you have made it so painfully clear that you have never studied Hebrew?
If they were invalid then why do you always confirm exactly what I said, and why can't you answer my questions?
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 9:55:44 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1651
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
benelchi,
quote:
Fact: Under the OT Law the death penalty was not an option unless there were two witnesses. In other words the prescription under the Law did not permit the death penalty for most cases of adultery i.e. those that did not have two witnesses.
The lack of witnesses simply proves that you cannot charge the individual with adultery. But death is still the penalty for adultery. The penalty for adultery is still death.
If Jesus Christ is saying that divorce is the remedy for adultery, then he changed the law. But He came to fullfill it.
That might be true if we didn't have the passage given in Duet. 24:1-4, but we do, and you simply ignored it in the last post. If you don't believe adultery was the required grounds for divorce in Duet. 24:1-4, what do you believe the required grounds were? or How do you reconcile the command not to return to a former husband with the belief espoused by those on this thread that say that a remarried spouse should divorce and return to their former spouse?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 9:59:21 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 965
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
That might be true if we didn't have the passage given in Duet. 24:1-4, but we do, and you simply ignored it in the last post.
Where in the text of that Law do you claim we will find this continual unrepentant sexual infidelity provision?
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries (bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 10:03:11 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1146
Joined: 6/2/2005
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Divorce is for fornication in betrothal under the law (Deut 24:1-4). Death is for adultery in marriage under the law. Two prescriptions for two different situations under the law. Jesus Christ came to fullfill the law, He did not change it. Now if you are under grace, and God has written His law on your heart, and you indeed have a heart of flesh, and you also have the indwelling of His Spirit which communicates the Heart of God which Hates divorce, you will neither divorce your betrothed nor stone your adulterous spouse. You will also extend grace.
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
benelchi,
quote:
Fact: Under the OT Law the death penalty was not an option unless there were two witnesses. In other words the prescription under the Law did not permit the death penalty for most cases of adultery i.e. those that did not have two witnesses.
The lack of witnesses simply proves that you cannot charge the individual with adultery. But death is still the penalty for adultery. The penalty for adultery is still death.
If Jesus Christ is saying that divorce is the remedy for adultery, then he changed the law. But He came to fullfill it.
That might be true if we didn't have the passage given in Duet. 24:1-4, but we do, and you simply ignored it in the last post. If you don't believe adultery was the required grounds for divorce in Duet. 24:1-4, what do you believe the required grounds were? or How do you reconcile the command not to return to a former husband with the belief espoused by those on this thread that say that a remarried spouse should divorce and return to their former spouse?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 10:15:15 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 965
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
Divorce is for fornication in betrothal under the law (Deut 24:1-4). Death is for adultery in marriage under the law. Two prescriptions for two different situations under the law. Jesus Christ came to fullfill the law, He did not change it. Now if you are under grace, and God has written His law on your heart, and you indeed have a heart of flesh, and you also have the indwelling of His Spirit which communicates the Heart of God which Hates divorce, you will neither divorce your betrothed nor stone your adulterous spouse. You will also extend grace.
That is the bottom line here. The Old Covenant Law was written on stone to stony hearted unregenerate people, but God said that the New Covenant was for His Spirit to write the Spirit of the Law on our hearts and minds, and to give us renewed and sanctified hearts so that we do His will by choice, and are not subject to a rigid set of rules for hard hearted people.
2 Corinthians 3:2-3 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Romans 7:2-6 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
2 Corinthians 3:14-18 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Galatians 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Romans 8:13-17 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
Titus 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 10:23:07 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1146
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From: Midwest USA
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Great verses indeed, Sealed! I was touched in my heart by the gentle reminder! Thank you for posting them. 
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 10:37:29 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1651
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
Divorce is for fornication in betrothal under the law (Deut 24:1-4).
The problem with this theory is that we have no evidence that anyone for many centuries after Christ believed these passage referred to the betrothal period. Even in the writings of the early church we have no indication that these passages spoke of betrothals. Based on his understanding of these passages, Hermas said that divorce was required in the case of unrepentant adultery. And clearly the Jewish Rabbis did not interpret these passages as referring to a betrothal period. What evidence do you have that would indicate otherwise?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 10:49:02 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1146
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From: Midwest USA
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benelchi,
quote:
The problem with this theory is that we have no evidence that anyone for many centuries after Christ believed these passage referred to the betrothal period.
No, but we do have . . . the law! Its written clearly for all to read.
quote:
Even in the writings of the early church we have no indication that these passages spoke of betrothals. Based on his understanding of these passages, Hermas said that divorce was required in the case of unrepentant adultery. And what book of the Bible is Hermas quoted in? I hope you're not going back to those "serious scholars" again who would make our Lord a liar by saying that He's saying the penalty for adultery is divorce and not death.
quote:
And clearly the Jewish Rabbis did not interpret these passages as referring to a betrothal period. Clearly Jesus Christ was in opposition to what the Jewish Rabbis were teaching--so why aren't you?
quote:
What evidence do you have that would indicate otherwise?
Um . . . the word of God.
Everything I have said to you articulates and neither makes our Lord a liar nor denies the heart of God. Your stance with the religious leaders and scholars is repleat with contraditions, ambiguity, confusion, and they would make our Lord a liar and do not communicate the Heart of God for marriage. Can you tell me why what you posit makes sense in the context of being a believer with a heart of flesh, indwelt with the Holy Spirit and communicating the heart of God?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 10:56:22 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1651
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
benelchi,
quote:
The problem with this theory is that we have no evidence that anyone for many centuries after Christ believed these passage referred to the betrothal period.
No, but we do have . . . the law! Its written clearly for all to read.
I agree it is written quite clearly, and most who read it, read something very different than what you have proposed, and without a shred of evidence you seem to expect people to abandon the clear understanding of these passages in favor of your unique interpretation. I am sorry, but I for one will stand on what I clearly read, unless you can provide some real evidence that would give me reason to consider an interpretation that differs from the plain reading of these passages. This just appears to me again to be the "I have no evidence for my interpretation, so I will just tell you what it means" argument, and that is one I just cannot accept.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 11:06:55 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1146
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From: Midwest USA
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1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, 2 when she has departed from his house, and goes and becomes another man's wife, 3 if the latter husband detests her and writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her as his wife, 4 then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance. Deut 24:1-4
The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death. --Leviticus 20:10
Two different scenarios with two different remedies. ALL adultery is grounds for death. Not unrepentant, continuous, light-hearted--ALL adultery.
Everything I have said to you articulates and neither makes our Lord a liar nor denies the heart of God. Your stance with the religious leaders and scholars is repleat with contraditions, ambiguity, confusion, and they would make our Lord a liar and do not communicate the Heart of God for marriage. Can you tell me why what you posit makes sense in the context of being a believer with a heart of flesh, indwelt with the Holy Spirit and communicating the heart of God?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 11:30:28 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 965
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
benelchi,
quote:
The problem with this theory is that we have no evidence that anyone for many centuries after Christ believed these passage referred to the betrothal period.
No, but we do have . . . the law! Its written clearly for all to read.
I agree it is written quite clearly, and most who read it, read something very different than what you have proposed, and without a shred of evidence you seem to expect people to abandon the clear understanding of these passages in favor of your unique interpretation. I am sorry, but I for one will stand on what I clearly read, unless you can provide some real evidence that would give me reason to consider an interpretation that differs from the plain reading of these passages.
Where in the "plain reading of these passages" do you claim we will find this continual unrepentant sexual infidelity provision?
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries (bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 11:40:21 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 653
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I am sorry, but I for one will stand on what I clearly read, unless you can provide some real evidence that would give me reason to consider an interpretation that differs from the plain reading of these passages.
I will stand on what I clearly read, unless you can provide some real evidence that would give me reason to consider an interpretation that differs from the PLAIN READING of these passages...
1 Cor 7:10-11
"To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife."
There is no indication here whatsoever that this command to remain unmarried does not apply to EVERYONE. Any interpretation that says it does not apply to everyone is adding to the text something that is not there. He also commands everyone NOT to divorce (with no exceptions). Any interpretation that says the command not to divorce does not apply to everyone is adding to the text something that is not there.
1 cor 7:39
"A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord."
Romans 7:2-3
"For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man."
These verses say til death, not til divorce. Any other interpretation is adding to the text something that is not there.
Luke 16:18
"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
This verse covers every possible case and any other interpretation is adding to the text something that is not there.
I don't need to know a thing about Hebrew to understand the above. Any other interpretation means Jesus and Paul were teaching 2 different doctrines and causing mass confusion.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 4/19/2008 11:47:15 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 11:42:47 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 2121
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The problem with this theory is that we have no evidence that anyone for many centuries after Christ believed these passage referred to the betrothal period. Even in the writings of the early church we have no indication that these passages spoke of betrothals. Based on his understanding of these passages, Hermas said that divorce was required in the case of unrepentant adultery. And clearly the Jewish Rabbis did not interpret these passages as referring to a betrothal period. What evidence do you have that would indicate otherwise?
because if some sort of evidence is not concocted to indicate this betrothal myth, the whole anti-remarriage argument collapses ..
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 11:47:30 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 965
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
because if some sort of evidence is not concocted to indicate this betrothal myth, the whole anti-remarriage argument collapses ..
No, actually if you read the verses above, the New Testament teaches marriage for life throughout. It is you that is reduced to clinging to a somewhat vague reference to an Old Covenant Law, and to try to misapply it to New Covenant marriages for a cause that it never dealt with.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 11:51:51 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1146
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
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iwillfearnoevil,
quote:
because if some sort of evidence is not concocted to indicate this betrothal myth, the whole anti-remarriage argument collapses ..
No, it wouldn't. Because the penalty for adultery will always be death per the law. And God will always hate divorce because He is God and He changes not. We now have His Spirit that communicates His heart, why would it communicate something to us that He hates? Why would flesh-hearted Christians even need something created for hard-hearted unbelievers?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 11:55:08 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1651
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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SealedEternal,
Why do you continue to insist on making these invalid arguments based on Hebrew vocabulary, when you have made it so painfully clear that you don't understand any of the nuances of the vocabulary you try and present? Please go and take a Hebrew class and learn something about the language, and stop just making things up. Or you could just stop and read what Hebrew scholars have written and trust their expertise in their field. It is just incomprehensible to me that you seem to place your "expertise" in higher regard than that of all of the men and women who have devoted their lives to the study of the biblical languages, even though you have never even begun such study yourself. What's worse is that you seem to expect others to hold your interpretation in higher regard as well??????????????? It makes absolutely no sense!
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
benelchi,
quote:
The problem with this theory is that we have no evidence that anyone for many centuries after Christ believed these passage referred to the betrothal period.
No, but we do have . . . the law! Its written clearly for all to read.
I agree it is written quite clearly, and most who read it, read something very different than what you have proposed, and without a shred of evidence you seem to expect people to abandon the clear understanding of these passages in favor of your unique interpretation. I am sorry, but I for one will stand on what I clearly read, unless you can provide some real evidence that would give me reason to consider an interpretation that differs from the plain reading of these passages.
Where in the "plain reading of these passages" do you claim we will find this continual unrepentant sexual infidelity provision?
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries (bâ‛al) her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 11:56:49 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 653
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
My church will only marry those who had biblical grounds for their divorce, and only when the elders of the church approve.
Benelchi
Does your church remarry the adulterer himself, and those who abandon their families?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/20/2008 12:05:32 AM
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