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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/18/2008 7:34:32 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1634
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
How then can you break a covenant with your spouse? Your own words bare witness against you
In the case of adultery or abandonment, it is the spouse that has broken the covenant.
Do we find anywhere in scripture where we can annul the words WE said before God because the other person has not honored their part? Which parts can then cause us not to honor our part-----if they don't "love" in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer (BTW, MOST divorces happen, not for adultery/desertion, but for FINANCIAL reasons)-----the thing in our vows which aligns perfectly with scripture is the: "til death do you part" Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39...............our vows reflect the teachings found in the bible, that is why we don't say, "until you don't love me anymore, unless you forsake me, unless you don't treat me nice when I'm sick, unless you don't make wise financial decisions, etc, etc".
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/18/2008 4:16:28 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 2336
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From: just north of Florida
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quote:
(BTW, MOST divorces happen, not for adultery/desertion, but for FINANCIAL reasons)-----the thing in our vows which aligns perfectly with scripture is the: "til death do you part" Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39...............our vows reflect the teachings found in the bible, that is why we don't say, "until you don't love me anymore, unless you forsake me, unless you don't treat me nice when I'm sick, unless you don't make wise financial decisions, etc, etc".
True about the financies. It is one of the big three that tears a marriage apart. But it most likely is not the only cause, and may be only a symptom of the real issues.
And some people do vow, "until I think differantly"; therefore the prenuptual agreements that some couples make.
But back to the bible. I do not agree that there is never an allowance for divorce in the bible. I do not agree that it means someone must remain single for the rest of their lives. I do not think many people know what they are "vowing" when they recite those famous lines. I think that it is often humans putting something together and then afterwards expecting God to put His stamp of approval on it. If it were the other way around, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion today.
_____________________________
bungalow time http://www.car2ner.2ya.com (my blog)
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/18/2008 4:39:16 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1634
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
I do not agree that it means someone must remain single for the rest of their lives. I do not think many people know what they are "vowing" when they recite those famous lines. I think that it is often humans putting something together and then afterwards expecting God to put His stamp of approval on it. If it were the other way around, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion today.
Concerning remaining single for the rest of their lives, Jesus and Paul both taught that, car2ner (I Cor. 7:10-11). Paul clearly states that this is a command from the Lord when one leaves a spouse. Many do not like this command so they try to find all sorts of ways to explain how that can't possibly pertain to them..........it must pertain to someone else, someone who doesn't have a "drive", or someone who doesn't really care about being married, or someone who doesn't have a "good" reason to divorce, etc, etc. It seems that commands doesn't really pertain to much of anyone who has divorced and wants to find someone new.
In regards to your statement on man putting something together, the Bible does not differentiate between believer/unbeliever in regards to what Marriages God joins----only that He joins 2 peoples who are FREE to be married to each other. God made marriage for ALL of mankind.........what we get is the choice on WHO to marry when we first marry. If we marry someone who is not free to marry, we enter into adultery(we join ourselves with someone else's spouse in the Lord's eyes). If we marry one who IS free to marry, the Lord joins the two into ONE---no longer two. Personally, I just do not see the "wrong" person argument unless someone marries another's spouse----then it IS the wrong person they married, no matter if it feels so "right"..................
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/18/2008 7:13:58 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1146
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A Broken covenant is something like a lie . . . If your spouse lies to you and God and runs off to forsake the covenant--does that then entitle you with the right to lie to God and run off and forsake your covenant? You don't make a covenant between you and your spouse only--you are including God in this scenario. Anytime He has to join two people together to make them one (as He indicates that has to be done in marriage), you are making a covenant with Him as well.
dreams2music has brought up a very good point about Saul and the covenant Joshua made with a very decietful nation. Despite the fact that this nation decieved the Israelites, and God had warned them NOT to make any covenants with the them, God still expected them to keep that covenant. If you were disobedient and married an unbelieving spouse, you STILL have to keep that vow. Hense it is better not to be unequally yoked.
quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
How then can you break a covenant with your spouse? Your own words bare witness against you
In the case of adultery or abandonment, it is the spouse that has broken the covenant.
Car, the trouble I have with your line of reasoning . . . particularly here:
quote:
But back to the bible. I do not agree that there is never an allowance for divorce in the bible. I do not agree that it means someone must remain single for the rest of their lives. I do not think many people know what they are "vowing" when they recite those famous lines. I think that it is often humans putting something together and then afterwards expecting God to put His stamp of approval on it. If it were the other way around, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion today.
Are all of those "I" statements. You've been clearly shown not only by me and others, but the Bible, that divorce makes no sense in the context with which we use it today. You say, "back to the Bible," but go on to say, "I think, I believe." Our words, should be, this is what the Bible says, and this is why I do what I do. I am confused as to whether you are saying that you follow Jesus Christ or you are following Judaic customs which Jesus plainly refutes. If you seek to follow the law of moses, it is impossible to use divorce in the context of adultery. Divorce is for the betrothed under that law. If you are following the hypocritical religious leaders of Jesus' Day, who divorced whenever there was (or wasn't) some egregious flaw in their spouse, then you are patently following the customs Jesus Christ Himself refuted. And these were men that he called vipers and whitewashed tombs. They had a form of godliness but denied the power of it. It looked good, but it wasn't any better than the sin of the drunkard or the prostitute (both did not keep the law, and followed their own hard hearts).
As believers we are to look into the Word of God and learn of Him and what we learn should be reflecting His heart. But even if we reject Jesus Christ's sacrifice and the Heart of God for marriage and decide to follow the law, because it suits our purposes better, divorce still wouldn't be the remedy for adultery. Death is the penalty for adultery.
But if we reject stoning our unfaithful spouses to death, then we become transgressors of the law, and are reprobate even against the law of God. What then? If we have rejected Christ's sacrifice, and we have rejected following ALL of the law, how do we find our way back to God?
The Bible says, "Know the truth and it will set you free." There comes a time in every man's life to either stand for truth or fall for lies. Jesus is the truth, the way, and the light. To follow Jesus, it can be hard, but He will ALWAYS provide a way of escape when we are tempted to do wrong. There is a way!
And here's the thing . . . being a christian can be hard. It can be difficult to lay down our lives for Him. But because we are indwelt by His Spirit, He will give us the strength to do what is right. He will make ways when we are obedient. Just today I experienced something similar as it pertains to doing what is right. I was tempted, but I knew the truth. And because God knew in my heart I wanted to honor Him above my persuits, He provided an escape for me. But I had the choice to take that escape. Everyone that has read this thread so far, has been given that choice.
You see, God will not let us go on in ingnorance. He will come along and tell us. He will give us an escape. He will be blameless on That Day; because He will make sure that we have heard the truth. God will always give us a choice. Today, He sets before us blessings and cursings, life and death--He tells us, "Choose life!" He urges believers, harden not your heart as in the provocation (when the israelites hardened their hearts against the God who brought them out with a Mighty Hand). Choose you this day whom you will serve!
And as for your question about engaged persons, I did answer it. I said they should extend grace to one another.
2Timothy 3:16
quote:
but there is nothing that another man's wife can do for me that I'm willing to go to hell for. Simple as that!!!
AMEN!!! There is nothing that another woman's husband can do for me that I am willing to go to hell for either!
< Message edited by Dakotasunbeam -- 4/18/2008 8:29:52 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/18/2008 8:18:58 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 976
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
In the case of adultery or abandonment, it is the spouse that has broken the covenant.
No, the covenant is until death do us part, and not until adultery or abandonment do us part, so these things do not break the covenant since they were not the terms of it:
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
If the terms of the marriage covenant had been for better or worse, in sickness and health, until adultery, abandonment, or death do us part, you may have had a case, but God didn't set it up that way.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/18/2008 9:54:15 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 672
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
quote:ORIGINAL: keepitreal
ORIGINAL: benelchi
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
Do you think that someone who has divorced their adulterous wife and married again is guilty of adultery and condemned to hell if they do not repent?
This is one of the areas where those on this forum who teach "no remarriage ever" differ significantly from almost the entire Christian church. Many churches believe that any remarriage that began following biblical guidelines is not sinful i.e. are not adulterous. For those that are entered sinfully (and many are), most believe that repentance never requires someone to divorce, but rather requires them to be faithful and honor the marriage covenant they are now in. Most believe that choosing to divorce again would still require clear biblical grounds or it would be just as sinful and wrong as it would be in a first marriage.
However, those who teach "no remarriage ever" on this forum believe:
1) All "covenant" marriages causes both spouses to be bound to that marriage for life as long as both spouses live regardless of adultery, abandonment, divorce, remarriage, whether either spouse was or is a believer, whether divorce happened before or after conversion, etc... A marriage is defined by them as a valid "covenant" marriage if both spouses have never been in a prior "covenant" marriage.
2) "Any spouse that is remarried (according to the state) while still being bound by a "covenant" marriage to someone else will go to Hell unless they in repentance abandon the relationship or their original spouse dies. Those who have abandoned such a relationship are strongly encouraged to pursue a legal divorce as an acknowledgment that they have truly repented."
In other words they believe that everyone who has remarried is going to Hell with the following exceptions.
1) If your prior spouse dies before you do when you have remained in a remarriage, you can be saved.
2) If your prior spouse had been married before they married you, then you can remarry someone who has never been married, and still be saved.
3) If you divorce before you die, you can be saved.
4) if your current spouse dies before you do, you can be saved; however, your current spouse will go to Hell.
Wow..it seems so much simpler the way Jesus actually taught it, doesn't it?!
Much simpler and so much more reflective of the Gospel message as a whole.
Actually this is the Gospel message which does not line up AT ALL with the exceptions to condemn our spouse for committing the wrong sin...and to not remain reconcilable to them.
1 Cor 5:18-19
"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us
THE MESSAGE OF RECONCILIATION."
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 4/18/2008 10:02:10 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/18/2008 10:11:58 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 672
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
He says simply, that adultery is grounds for divorce.
No adultery = no grounds
Adultery=grounds
Simple enough for a child.
Our children should also learn the importance of reflecting Christ...not seeking revenge, but showing unconditional love and forgiveness and faithfulness no matter what another person does to us.
His love and faithfulness is not dependent on what we do. I'm not sure how one would explain these verses to a child and at the same time justify divorce.
Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."
Col 3:12-13
"Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you."
Matt 6:14
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."
Matt 18:21-22
"Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."
Matt 18:32-35
"Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you? Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 1:30:23 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 1794
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
Are all of those "I" statements. You've been clearly shown not only by me and others, but the Bible, that divorce makes no sense in the context with which we use it today.
When did you or anyone else do that?
From what I see, there are a few very vocal posters on this forum who want to tell everyone else what the they MUST believe the bible says while disregarding anything in the bible that contradicts their viewpoint. To date neither you nor any of the others who desire to tell everyone else what they MUST believe has shown anything that would cause anyone to question the views held by the majority of Pastors and biblical scholars on this topic. Additionally the continual objectively verifiable misstatements made by those on this forum who push this strange theology leaves plenty of reason to doubt their interpretation.
For instance:
quote:
If you seek to follow the law of moses, it is impossible to use divorce in the context of adultery. Divorce is for the betrothed under that law.
The vast majority of scholars (Christian and secular) reject this.
quote:
But even if we reject Jesus Christ's sacrifice and the Heart of God for marriage and decide to follow the law, because it suits our purposes better, divorce still wouldn't be the remedy for adultery. Death is the penalty for adultery.
No serious scholar (Christian or secular) believes this was practiced in the first century i.e. in the culture that Jesus was addressing.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 4/19/2008 1:36:23 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 8:37:20 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2336
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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quote:
Are all of those "I" statements.
Of course they are all "I" statements. "I" used to believe that marriage was only dissolved in death. "I" have studied it more and have changed "my" mind. "I" also do not know everything about this issue and can only give "MY" opinion of what "I" see the scriptures saying.
I am under no illusion that I will change your mind. I simply recounted what I see as truth but again I am in no way shape and form discouraged that folks disagree with me. I used to agree to part of the No-remarriage stance , although I would never comdemn someone to hell for it, or advocate breaking up a remarriage for the sake of pining over the original partner.
Seen the scriptures, underlined, put into bold type, etc. Frankly, I skip over them now because I have seen and read them over and over. I have put in mine and they have been dismissed by others. So what is left? Simply to state opinion.
"I" am now off to enjoy some other threads.
_____________________________
bungalow time http://www.car2ner.2ya.com (my blog)
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 9:22:24 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 976
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
From what I see, there are a few very vocal posters on this forum who want to tell everyone else what the they MUST believe the bible says while disregarding anything in the bible that contradicts their viewpoint.
We all MUST believe what God says in the Bible on the subject, and it makes no difference whatsoever what we or some experts believe about it. You also know very well that there is not one verse of scripture that we have disregarded, and unlike you have answered every question and shown that there is nothing anywhere that contradicts our viewpoint.
quote:
To date neither you nor any of the others who desire to tell everyone else what they MUST believe has shown anything that would cause anyone to question the views held by the majority of Pastors and biblical scholars on this topic. Additionally the continual objectively verifiable misstatements made by those on this forum who push this strange theology leaves plenty of reason to doubt their interpretation.
For instance:
quote:
If you seek to follow the law of moses, it is impossible to use divorce in the context of adultery. Divorce is for the betrothed under that law.
The vast majority of scholars (Christian and secular) reject this.
The vast majority of "scholars" are wrong, because God did specifically state that death was the penalty for adultery, and never said that divorce was.
quote:
quote:
But even if we reject Jesus Christ's sacrifice and the Heart of God for marriage and decide to follow the law, because it suits our purposes better, divorce still wouldn't be the remedy for adultery. Death is the penalty for adultery.
No serious scholar (Christian or secular) believes this was practiced in the first century i.e. in the culture that Jesus was addressing.
What difference does it make that the Old Covenant people weren't following His Law? That's precisely why Jesus came and rebuked the vast majority of "scholars" of His day, and set them straight as to what His Law actually said. This was in fact the whole point of Matthew 19 where he was rebuking them for their abuse of Deuteronomy 24 which only permitted a man to put away a wife who was discovered to have committed an unclean act (ervah) which was a Hebrew euphemism for fornication, and was only applicable WHEN the man took (lâqach) his wife and took dominion over her (bâ‛al). The "majority of scholars" had perverted His Law to create loopholes as the modern day "experts" do, for which Jesus said they were actually committing adultery because their divorces didn't dissolve their original marriages.
You are making the very error that Jesus was speaking against, and appealing to the authority of men who pervert God's word rather than to His word itself. He however has said that He joins us in marriage, that we cannot separate this union, and that if we attempt to do so and remarry, we are simply committing adultery against our original spouse and having sexual relations with someone who we are not married to. That is what God says regardless of what the "scholars" happen to think:
Genesis 2:22-24 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Malachi 2:13-17 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. "For I HATE DIVORCE," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." You have wearied the LORD with your words Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them," or, "Where is the God of justice?"
Matthew 5:31-33 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, MAKES HER COMMIT ADULTERY; and WHOEVER MARRIES A DIVORCED WOMAN COMMITS ADULTERY."Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, LET NO MAN SEPARATE."
Mark 10:5-12 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment."But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "EVERYONE WHO DIVORCES HIS WIFE AND MARRIES ANOTHER COMMITS ADULTERY, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
1 Corinthians 7:10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, SHE SHALL BE CALLED AN ADULTERESS; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Ephesians 5:22-32 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 10:11:50 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 1794
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
You are making the very error that Jesus was speaking against, and appealing to the authority of men who pervert God's word rather than to His word itself.
NO, this is untrue, I really have rejected your interpretation of God's word in favor of what God really wrote, and I accept the testimony of those scholars who submit themselves to the authority of God's word.
quote:
This was in fact the whole point of Matthew 19 where he was rebuking them for their abuse of Deuteronomy 24 which only permitted a man to put away a wife who was discovered to have committed an unclean act (ervah) which was a Hebrew euphemism for fornication, and was only applicable WHEN the man took (lâqach) his wife and took dominion over her (bâ‛al). The "majority of scholars" had perverted His Law to create loopholes as the modern day "experts" do, for which Jesus said they were actually committing adultery because their divorces didn't dissolve their original marriages.
Here again is a great example of why I MUST reject your interpretation! Here you try and tell us what we must believe the Hebrew says while demonstrating yet again that you have ABSOLUTELY NO UNDERSTANDING of the langauge! The Hebrew idiom used here is 'ervat devar' (not 'ervah') and is used only one other time in the entire OT, and there, as in this verse, it clearly wasn't talking about 'fornication' (premarital sex) as you continue to insist. For those interested, I recently discussed this idiom in this post.
For those who can read Hebrew, and would like to check the reference, here is a quote of Duet. 24:1-4. The NT citation also included in this link is there because I put this up a while back when countering the other erroneous claim made by SealedEternal, again repeated in his last post.
SealedEternal, don't you realize that when you just make things up to prove your point that you undermine all of your credibility when people check out what you have said and realize that there isn't an ounce of truth in it?
< Message edited by benelchi -- 4/19/2008 10:17:57 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 10:18:33 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1634
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
the views held by the majority of Pastors and biblical scholars on this topic.
The vast majority of scholars (Christian and secular) reject this.
No serious scholar (Christian or secular) believes this
It is very sad to me how much trust you place in other's "scholarship" even when those very same individuals cannot answer some of the questions posed. Now, if you would come here and answer the questions you yourself avoid WITH THE WORD OF GOD, your viewpoint could be considered. Unfortunately, you ignore posts which ask you to explain the state of second marriages as found in the Word of God and you ignore why it is that the man who marries the woman of Mt. 19:9 is guilty of adultery and continually point out that the "majority" of TODAY'S believers do not believe in the permanency of marriage, therefore the permanency of marriage doctrine must be wrong. Do you not know what the Word of God teaches in regards to those who will fall away in the last days----defecting from truth, surrounding themselves with teachers who tell them things they WANT to hear? II Tim. 3-4.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 10:31:23 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 1794
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
the views held by the majority of Pastors and biblical scholars on this topic.
The vast majority of scholars (Christian and secular) reject this.
No serious scholar (Christian or secular) believes this
It is very sad to me how much trust you place in other's "scholarship" even when those very same individuals cannot answer some of the questions posed.
I trust the scholarship of those who have demonstrated honesty and integrity in their work i.e. those who when I check out the references they provide and compare them against God's word, I find out they have not misrepresented the truth to prove their point! I don't trust the scholarship of those on this forum pushing the "no remarriage" viewpoint whose posts continue to be proven over and over to be unreliable at best and outright dishonest at worst.
quote:
Now, if you would come here and answer the questions you yourself avoid WITH THE WORD OF GOD, your viewpoint could be considered.
Unfortunately, the history of this thread has repeatedly shown that you and most of the others holding your viewpoint WILL NOT consider any opinion other than your own NO MATTER how much of God's word is provided to backup the opposing position. This post again demonstrates that fact!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 11:05:32 AM
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lastblast
Posts: 1634
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I trust the scholarship of those who have demonstrated honesty and integrity in their work i.e. those who when I check out the references they provide and compare them against God's word, I find out they have not misrepresented the truth to prove their point!
Have they (the so called "scholars") been able to show how the relationship Jesus calls adultery is NOT adultery? You have not yet been able to show this, nor have you been willing to show those who are standing faithfully and praying for their spouses in adultery that their spouses are no longer theirs, but belong to another now. You are trying to tell one group(those in remarriages) they are AOK----not in adultery, yet you cannot/will not show the other group (those who ARE remaining faithful to the marriage God joined together) that they are in error, that they are coveting another woman's/man's spouse. Can you show this second group where they are biblically wrong in standing for their spouse who Jesus said is in adultery?
quote:
I don't trust the scholarship of those on this forum pushing the "no remarriage" viewpoint whose posts continue to be proven over and over to be unreliable at best and outright dishonest at worst.
Yes, I realize you would much rather trust those who are all over the map in what they believe than to believe a position which leaves no questions unanswered. The Lord allows us to believe what we want to believe, even if it is at odds with His Word/Heart/Will.
quote:
Unfortunately, the history of this thread has repeatedly shown that you and most of the others holding your viewpoint WILL NOT consider any opinion other than your own NO MATTER how much of God's word is provided to backup the opposing position. This post again demonstrates that fact!
No, the history of this thread proves that we WILL answer questions-----even when our answers bring forth the wrath of certain posters. You however, dodge questions or disappear from the thread only to reappear and then make foundless accusations. We answer your questions, why can't you do the same, Benelchi---if you can? And if you can't, just be honest and say that you can't answer the questions posed to you yet.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 12:11:53 PM
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2Timothy3_16
Posts: 11
Joined: 4/16/2008
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quote:
Unfortunately, the history of this thread has repeatedly shown that you and most of the others holding your viewpoint WILL NOT consider any opinion other than your own NO MATTER how much of God's word is provided to backup the opposing position. This post again demonstrates that fact!
I have returned to see if anyone had answered my question and was intrigued by this comment. I do not have an opinion but I did find these scriptures in my Bible.
Romans 6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
I Corinthians 7:10-11: 10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
Romans 7:2-3: 2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
I Corinthians 6:9-10: 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
I will be in prayer for those that believe that this is about a viewpoint or an opinion or about how well you know Greek or Hebrew.
God bless all of you.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 1:06:55 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1634
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I am absolutely convinced that those who teach the "no remarriage" viewpoint on this thread hold a viewpoint that is absolutely opposed to what is taught in God's word. That doesn't mean that every one who believes remarriage is wrong is teaching something as clearly opposed to God's word as those on this thread do; John Piper is a good example of someone who approaches the word of God with integrity and yet has come to the conclusion that remarriage is never permitted after divorce.
My husband says that in order for something to be believeable, it has to be "bullet proof". You ignore questions that poke holes in what you speak is "truth".........or you leave the thread for awhile, then come back for hit and run type postings or accusational type stuff. If you cannot prove to the stander that their marriage is annulled and that they are in fact coveting another person's spouse-----proven with the Word of God, then you have a major problem to contend with concerning your view. Until you deal with that issue, you can rail all you want about "integrity" of the other side, but we DO answer questions. You do not answer questions. Who then has a lack of integrity?
You keep bringing up John Piper. You say he has integrity. If a person has integrity, does he state that remarriage after divorce is forbidden, that such a union is adultery, then stand side by side with ministers in his OWN church who perform marriages of divorcees? Is that integrity in God's eyes, or is that compromise (and I will not say why he has compromised what he says he believes, for only he knows what motivates the compromise)? I like Mr. Piper. I think he is a great teacher in other areas of doctrine, yet in this area, I don't get him at all. I think for what he professes to believe as truth (lifelong marriage), that he has compromised greatly. How he can sit there pastoring such a church where his ministers will marry divorcees, believing them to be blessing adultery, I cannot understand. I would feel sickened in the very pit of my gut if I were him...........and I could not "go along", but, like I said, only he knows what is driving him to stay and pastor in such a church where the elders are not in agreement with him.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 2:12:31 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 976
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
This was in fact the whole point of Matthew 19 where he was rebuking them for their abuse of Deuteronomy 24 which only permitted a man to put away a wife who was discovered to have committed an unclean act (ervah) which was a Hebrew euphemism for fornication, and was only applicable WHEN the man took (lâqach) his wife and took dominion over her (bâ‛al). The "majority of scholars" had perverted His Law to create loopholes as the modern day "experts" do, for which Jesus said they were actually committing adultery because their divorces didn't dissolve their original marriages.
Here again is a great example of why I MUST reject your interpretation! Here you try and tell us what we must believe the Hebrew says while demonstrating yet again that you have ABSOLUTELY NO UNDERSTANDING of the langauge! The Hebrew idiom used here is 'ervat devar' (not 'ervah') and is used only one other time in the entire OT, and there, as in this verse, it clearly wasn't talking about 'fornication' (premarital sex) as you continue to insist.
"Ervah" is used 54 times in the Old Testament and always means "indecency" or "uncleaness". "Debar" is a broad term simply meaning "a thing of, a matter of, etc." IN THIS CONTEXT it is referring to an un unclean thing found in a mans wife WHEN HE TOOK (lâqach) his wife and TOOK DOMINION OVER HER (bâ‛al). That clearly is referring to fornication IN THIS CONTEXT. As a self proclaimed Hebrew expert you should know that that they normally used euphamisms for discussing offensive topics, but anyone can see what this euphemism is referring to by the context.
quote:
SealedEternal, don't you realize that when you just make things up to prove your point that you undermine all of your credibility when people check out what you have said and realize that there isn't an ounce of truth in it?
I advise people to study these terms for themselves and they will see that they mean exactly what I've claimed.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 5:52:25 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1794
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
This was in fact the whole point of Matthew 19 where he was rebuking them for their abuse of Deuteronomy 24 which only permitted a man to put away a wife who was discovered to have committed an unclean act (ervah) which was a Hebrew euphemism for fornication, and was only applicable WHEN the man took (lâqach) his wife and took dominion over her (bâ‛al). The "majority of scholars" had perverted His Law to create loopholes as the modern day "experts" do, for which Jesus said they were actually committing adultery because their divorces didn't dissolve their original marriages.
Here again is a great example of why I MUST reject your interpretation! Here you try and tell us what we must believe the Hebrew says while demonstrating yet again that you have ABSOLUTELY NO UNDERSTANDING of the langauge! The Hebrew idiom used here is 'ervat devar' (not 'ervah') and is used only one other time in the entire OT, and there, as in this verse, it clearly wasn't talking about 'fornication' (premarital sex) as you continue to insist.
"Ervah" is used 54 times in the Old Testament and always means "indecency" or "uncleaness".
Funny someone forgot to tell the translators of our English bibles!!!
Lev. 18:7 in the NAS reads: "You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, that is, the nakedness of your mother. She is your mother; you are not to uncover her nakedness."
Lev. 18:7 in the NKJV reads "The nakedness of your father or the nakedness of your mother you shall not uncover: she is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness."
Lev. 18:7 in the KJV reads "The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness."
Lev. 18:7 in the NRSV reads "You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness."
24 of the 54 OT references to some form of 'ervah' are in Lev.18 and most English translations have translated them all as naked. Other OT references where this is ether translated 'naked' or nakedness is inferred in most English translations include all the rest of the references in Lev. 20, Ge. 9:22, Ex. 28:42, Is. 20:4, Is. 47:3, Ezek.16:8,36-37, Ezek. 23:10, Lam 1:8, and Ho. 2:11; in other words almost all of the 54 references.
An interesting allusion is found in Ge. 42:9, 12 (NAS) i.e. where Joseph told his brothers that they had "come to look at the undefended parts of our land!" literally 'nakedness of the land' ('ervat ha-eretz')
quote:
"Debar" is a broad term simply meaning "a thing of, a matter of, etc." IN THIS CONTEXT it is referring to an un unclean thing found in a mans wife WHEN HE TOOK (lâqach) his wife and TOOK DOMINION OVER HER (bâ‛al). That clearly is referring to fornication IN THIS CONTEXT. As a self proclaimed Hebrew expert you should know that that they normally used euphamisms for discussing offensive topics, but anyone can see what this euphemism is referring to by the context.
'devar' is most commonly translated 'word' or 'thing'; however, the question here is what does the idiomatic expression 'ervat devar' mean in this passage. Anyone with even the slightest amount of knowledge about the Hebrew langauge understands that neither of these words stands alone in this context because 'ervah' is in the construct form here i.e. 'ervat' and means 'nakedness of ...'; it can't simply be separated from the noun to which it is connected. The primary source for understanding the idiomatic expression 'ervat devar' comes from the only other OT reference i.e. Du. 23:14. As far as "WHEN HE TOOK DOMINION OVER HER" is concerned, this is just another example of a gross misinterpretation (already addressed many times before including in this discussion); that is why this link has the bold 'uva'alah' and the Hebrew translation of the NT verse that also included 'ba'alah'
quote:
quote:
SealedEternal, don't you realize that when you just make things up to prove your point that you undermine all of your credibility when people check out what you have said and realize that there isn't an ounce of truth in it?
I advise people to study these terms for themselves and they will see that they mean exactly what I've claimed.
SealedEternal
I can help; however, when people do study these terms for themselves they will find that it really doesn't mean "exactly what you have claimed", and hence you will have again undermined your credibility. They can also compare these references to what I said 'ervah' meant in this post. and see who has presented a definition that is consistent with all of the lexicon definitions.
(Langenscheidt's Pocket Hebrew Dictionary)
'ervah' - nakedness, bareness, the pudenda; shame; shameful or foul thing, filthiness.
(New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis Vol. 3)
'ervah' - nakedness, genitals, shame
(A complete Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon, Davies)
'ervah' - 1) Nakedness Hos. 2,11, Ez. 16, 8; fig. 'ervat ha-eretz' the land's nakedness i.e. its exposedness to conquest Gen. 42, 9 2) the privy parts or pudenda, of a man Gen. 9, 22, of a woman Lev. 18, 17; 'ervat av' for 'ervat ishet av' ('nakedness of father' for 'nakedness of wife of father') Lev. 18, 8; the maile member Ex. 28, 42. 3) shame, obscenity or foulness, 'ervat devar' a foul or hateful thing Du. 23:14; a blemish Duet. 24:1; disgrace or ignominy Is. 20, 4, 1 Sam 20,30
(The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon)
'ervah' - nakedness, pudenda; 1. pudenda, of man, 'ra'ah ervat ...' implying shameful exposure Gn. 9:22-23; mostly of woman: fig of Jerusalem La 1:8, Ez 16:37; 2. 'ervat devar' nakedness of a thing, prob. indecency, improper behavior Dt. 23:14, 24:1 3. fig 'ervat ha-aretz' Gn 42:9,12 i.e. its exposed, undefended parts.
(Multi Dictionary - Bilingual Learners Dictionary, Liora Weinbach and Edna Lauden)
'ervah' - genitals
(Milon Ivri-Engli Shalem, r. alcalay)
'ervah' - nakedness
Seems someone forgot to tell the editors of our lexicons what 'ervah' meant as well!!!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2008 6:41:49 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1794
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Timothy3_16
I don't have a problem with your questioning the motives of my posting, or being suspicious based on whatever e-tone you detect or the number of posts I've made or the location of those posts, and I appreciate the link to the 80-plus postings you have made in this thread. I clicked them all then looked up the scriptures listed in all translations available on bible.com, and still can't find where God's word said that remarriage is permitted after divorce in the case of adultery.
Well, thats not exactly what you asked the first time your question was "Where exactly in God's word does Jesus say that Adultery is Grounds For Divorce?"
To answer the first question, Jesus speaks of 'pornia' as grounds for divorce in Mt. 5 and 19. The Greek word 'pornia' has a broad semantic range meaning fornication, incest, adultery, etc... It is translated as follows in some of the popular English versions "fornication" (KJV), "sexual immorality" (NKJV), "marital unfaithfulness" (NIV), "Unchastity" (NASB), "Unchastity" (NRSV), etc... The other clear biblical ground for divorce comes from 1. Co. 7:15-16 which speaks about the abandonment by an unbelieving spouse. There are those scholars who do accept these grounds as valid grounds for a biblical divorce, and yet do not accept the idea that any remarriages can be entered without choosing to sin.
The question of remarriage is a different issue, and those who do believe that the bible does permit remarriage in some limited cases draw this conclusion from the fact that the bible clearly teaches that the marriage covenant can be irrevocably broken, and the fact that we are given clear biblical grounds for divorce. For example, a divorced spouse who has remarried is not permitted to return to a former spouse, doing so is said to be an abomination (Duet. 24:1-4)
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