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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 8:02:56 PM
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keepitreal
Posts: 74
Joined: 12/21/2007
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I do indeed believe Jesus
I believe He meant this also:
(A direct quote, btw)
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
An intelligent, sincere adult or child should find this easy to interpret.
Now I wish you all a blessed evening and blessed week. I will be away but I pray for God's enlightenment for each.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 8:16:30 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
I do indeed believe Jesus
I believe He meant this also:
(A direct quote, btw)
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
It can't be both, you either believe this direct quote or you reject it...
Luke 16:18
"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
and reject this one...
Mark 10:11-12
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
and reject this one...
1 Cor 7:39
"A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord."
and reject this one...
Romans 7:2-3
"For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man."
and reject this one...
1 Cor 7:10-11
"To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife."
I believe He meant all of the above. That's why an interpretation of a verse that makes it contradict all of the above and more...cannot be correct.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 8:29:50 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
An intelligent, sincere adult or child should find this easy to interpret.
They should also find it easy to interpret that the innocent woman who is put away here (not for adultery) will become an adulteress if she remarries.
Matthew 5:32
"But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."
Matthew 19:9
"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 9:25:48 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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If you a look at the ancient Church, they understood the ideal to be married "once", not more. But because of the weakness of man, it was permitted to remarry. And if anyone married more than 3 times, it was considered fornication.
Those in the clergy were for the most part married, and were not permitted to marry after the ordination. In their case, they had to follow the ideal, because they were setting an example to the people. If a priest's wife died, and he wanted to remain a priest, he could not remarry. And if he did, he could no longer keep the office.
The Greeks understand the following verse to mean married "once', not have one wife at a time.
quote:
1Tim 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Tim 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Or another way of putting it, the husband of the first wife.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 10:37:29 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1599
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepitreal
What a shame that 349 pages of comments complicate a simple rule from Jesus Christ.
He says simply, that adultery is grounds for divorce.
No adultery = no grounds
Adultery=grounds
Simple enough for a child.
If this is so simple keepitreal, how come those who believe remarriages are lawful cannot answer the questions posed to them: ie; what passages of scripture can they share with the spouses who are praying for their spouses who are in adulterous unions (which scriptures will tell them that their spouse's new union is a lawful marriage in God's eyes and not adultery)?
If this "adultery gives freedom to divorce and remarry another" teaching is so clear, why is it that the proponents of adultery frees to divorce/remarry cannot explain how it is that the woman of Mt. 19:9---the put away wife whose husband is now committing adultery is NOT free to marry again?
I think those who make this complicated are those who think they have freedom to come and go in marriages based upon sin God already knew about would occur when He joined the two as ONE FLESH, no longer to be two. On the permanency of marriage side there are no unanswered questions..............the explanations are very simple, though not liked by many due to the prevalence of divorce/remarriage in our society AND the professing church.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 10:49:28 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3001
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepitreal
What a shame that 349 pages of comments complicate a simple rule from Jesus Christ.
He says simply, that adultery is grounds for divorce.
No adultery = no grounds
Adultery=grounds
Simple enough for a child.
If this is so simple keepitreal, how come those who believe remarriages are lawful cannot answer the questions posed to them:
Keepitreal,
What she really means is "How come those who believe remarriages are lawful cannot answer the questions posed to them the way she wants them to be answered?"
The reason we cannot answer the questions the way she wants them to be answered is because that answer would be unbiblical, and she will not accept a biblical answer. The reality is that many have answered her questions many, many times. We have even provided links to previous times the same questions had been answered, but within a page she always conveniently forgets what has been said.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 10:50:07 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1599
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
For those that are entered sinfully (and many are), most believe that repentance never requires someone to divorce, but rather requires them to be faithful and honor the marriage covenant they are now in. Most believe that choosing to divorce again would still require clear biblical grounds or it would be just as sinful and wrong as it would be in a first marriage.
Who cares what "most" believe, benelchi? Jesus said that there will be MANY who come to Him in that day, saying, "Lord, Lord"...............and they are named not as His, but as workers of lawlessness.
If Jesus says that to marry someone is to commit adultery, why do you say the relationship is NOT adultery...........even when you have absolutely NO evidence in scripture that a new marriage nullifies the marriage GOD joined as ONE Flesh? You have been given at least 4 BIBLICAL examples of marriages in which your belief is refuted. You keep going back to the mindset of "most", "the majority", "the scholars"............is this how Jesus determines truth----by what is popular in man's ever changing mind and ever changing practices? Are we not to find truth in His Word, or through man's faulty reasonings? Seems you are placing what you believe not on what God says, but on what man says God means. That is a very dangerous practice.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 10:55:04 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1599
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepitreal
I do indeed believe Jesus
I believe He meant this also:
(A direct quote, btw)
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
An intelligent, sincere adult or child should find this easy to interpret.
Now I wish you all a blessed evening and blessed week. I will be away but I pray for God's enlightenment for each.
The problem is that this translation does not use the word "fornication" which is the greek word for 'porneia', but changes it to include marital unfaithfulness...........
Again, for those who do believe you can divorce and remarry for adultery within a marriage, please address the divorced wife of Mt. 19:9..........is Jesus contradicting Himself, or is He only allowing for men to divorce/remarry.............or are people possibly wrongly interpreting the first part of Mt. 19 and that is why the second clear prohibition does not fit?
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 10:57:11 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1599
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
If you a look at the ancient Church, they understood the ideal to be married "once", not more. But because of the weakness of man, it was permitted to remarry. And if anyone married more than 3 times, it was considered fornication.
Just to clarify, the permission to remarry was AFTER the death of one's spouse, not while they were still living.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 11:01:59 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3001
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepitreal
I do indeed believe Jesus
I believe He meant this also:
(A direct quote, btw)
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
An intelligent, sincere adult or child should find this easy to interpret.
Now I wish you all a blessed evening and blessed week. I will be away but I pray for God's enlightenment for each.
The problem is that this translation does not use the word "fornication" which is the greek word for 'porneia', but changes it to include marital unfaithfulness...........
Keepitreal,
There is no problem; almost all Greek scholars believe that "marital unfaithfulness" is the correct interpretation of 'porneia'; Among non religious Greek scholars I believe it is unanimous i.e. those that don't have a stake in this debate never even question the definition. Those who do translate it fornication do so with the understanding of the broader implication of 'pornia' and not the narrow definition pushed by those who are trying to use this to push their agenda.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 11:02:34 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1599
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
What she really means is "How come those who believe remarriages are lawful cannot answer the questions posed to them the way she wants them to be answered?"
The reason we cannot answer the questions the way she wants them to be answered is because that answer would be unbiblical, and she will not accept a biblical answer. The reality is that many have answered her questions many, many times. We have even provided links to previous times the same questions had been answered, but within a page she always conveniently forgets what has been said.
Why don't you quit saying that, giving links that STILL do not answer the questions and ANSWER the questions. Until/unless you can truthfully address those who are remaining faithful to their marriage (though their spouse is in adultery per Jesus), then you do not have credibility.
Unless you can point to specific examples (as has been done for you on the other side) of marriages that God joined together being dissolved while one was still living, and a second marriage contracted that was blessed by God, you do not have credibility. You can say all you want that you have provided the answers for the questions given you, but in truth, you have done no such thing. You have only spoken "opinion"..................not truth based upon what God has said in His Word, or on examples found in scripture verifying what you say is truth.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 11:06:54 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1599
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
the narrow definition pushed by those who are trying to use this to push their agenda.
I really don't have an huge issue with that being translated to include marital unfaithfulness as that is INCLUDED in the definition of porneia, however, to say that it IS marital unfaithfulness is just as limiting, as fornication can very well mean sex BEFORE the marraige occured.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2008 11:09:07 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLASE
iSERVEaJEW,
An email has been sent to your account. If you did not receive it please contact community@salemwebnetwork.com
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2008 3:40:22 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 149
Joined: 12/23/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
I wanted to stay away, but I wanted to ask some questions before I leave.
Can a woman Biblically divorce her husband? Why?
There be many that will claim yes to this question; but they cannot produce even ONE passage - not one CLEAR, PLAIN, UNAMBIGUOUS passage that supports such a contention. Where can they go? Not to any passage BEFORE THE LAW was given (Genesis or Job); and not to any passage that was given AT MT. SINAI (again, Genesis, nor Exd., nor Lev., nor Num., nor Duet., nor Josh. - nor any other book written from Moses thru Malachi). And though such people wish desperately to find 'a way of escape' an exception clause in Mat.5:31-32 and 19:1-11, they ignore the obvious fact that these passages are not providing an 'exception' to the woman - the wife, but strictly to the husband whose wife has committed fornication (whoredom) against her husband. And what that actually means, there are plenty of opinions on; but there are only a few Scriptural possibilities: (a) adultery of the wife after her consumation; (b) continual whoredom of the wife after her consumation; (c) a betrothed 'wife', who has "played the whore, in her father's house", BEFORE she has been "taken as a wife" and her husband goes into her at their consumation, that is, WHILE AWAITING her 'marriage' when she is "given in marriage" by her father at the 'celebration ceremony' [i.e. 'marriage']; (d).....
These passages (Mat.5; 19; Mrk.10; Luk.16) do NOT make provision for a wife tpo divorce her husband, whose husband has committed anything of a sexual nature (otherwise). The notion that "and visa verse" can be injected into these passages is a figment of the imagination, not based upon the defintions nor the context of the words therein.
And as for 1Cor.7:11 and or verse 15, or 27-28: None of these clearly and plainly states that there is a 'exception clause' there for the wife. And neither do they imply this.
< Message edited by p.progress -- 4/14/2008 4:05:14 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2008 4:18:57 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4216
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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why are mods cracking down on anything personal but allowing personal attacks in this thread? it is very disappointing to read and see the name calling in the last couple of pages. referring new posters here seems more like a one stop mess as i thought there were rules against personal attacks and name calling.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2008 4:41:58 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/28/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
why are mods cracking down on anything personal but allowing personal attacks in this thread? it is very disappointing to read and see the name calling in the last couple of pages. referring new posters here seems more like a one stop mess as i thought there were rules against personal attacks and name calling.
The report link is located at the bottom right of every post.
If you feel someone has resorted to personal attack then please be a responsible member of the community and use the report link.
I expect to be seeing a ticket from you soon.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salmwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
Messages which disregard the words in red will be removed without warning and the poster may also be banned.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2008 4:49:21 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1599
Joined: 9/20/2005
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quote:
The word of God is the absolute truth and this is what I stand on. Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Servant,
You came into this thread with an attitude which is very clearly seen. I, as well as several other posters on BOTH sides have contributed greatly to this discussion. I'm sorry if you see my passion for the truth to go forth as offensive, but I will not apologize for zeal.........and yes, though my "flesh" creeps in from time to time, I DO care for the brethren-----those who are in rebellious sin according to the Word of God as well as for the offended parties. As I said, it is much more helpful when you enter a discussion if you bring forth SCRIPTURES as to why you believe as you do, instead of being on the attack with snide comments.
As for Mt. 5:32, can you tell me which divorced woman a man is guilty of committing adultery with in that passage?
In Mt. 19:9, is the divorced woman spoken of by Jesus the offender or the forsaken?
Thank you.
_____________________________
Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2008 6:11:25 PM
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huckfinn327
Posts: 325
Joined: 1/30/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Servant4theLord
The word of God is the absolute truth and this is what I stand on. Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Greetings Servant4,
Of course you know that this verse was included in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. In this section of the sermon Jesus was specifically "contrasting" His interpretation of the Law with that of the Jewish traditional interpretation: Ye have heard it was by them of old." And each time Jesus contradicted the traditional interpretation with the objection "BUT I SAY UNTO YOU.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Again:
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Adultery was a capital crime:
Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Jesus did not come to destroy the Law ... But to fulfill the Law ... the Law did not provide a divorce clause for adultery ... it ONLY offered the DEATH penalty. This was not some form of a "mystical death" of the marriage ... it was the actual "literal death of both adulterer and adulteress."
Therefore the word "fornication" in Matt. 5:32 cannot mean "sexual impurity or immorality in full legal marriage" for even the event of looking upon the nakedness of another then the man's true wife was tantmount to adultery.
The "exception clauses" in Matthew are obscure texts and that whatever they mean their meaning must meet the laws of interpretation ... i.e. they must meet the Rule of the Analogy of Scripture. Thsi places a "heavy" burden on the reader or interpreter.
Mar 10:11,12 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
All for His Glory ... Huckfinn
< Message edited by huckfinn327 -- 4/14/2008 8:31:40 PM >
_____________________________
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2008 6:35:33 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 985
Joined: 6/2/2005
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benelchi & iserveajew,
It is written that divorce was permitted for the hardness of men's hearts. The context of when divorce was permitted under the OT was simply restated by Jesus Christ, per Deut 24:1. During this time, the religious leaders who had perverted the law, would come to Jesus Christ, and ask Him a question and Jesus would correct them.
If Jesus Christ was speaking of the infidelty of a married woman, the perscription for that was stoning--not divorce. Obviously there is a distinction in the Law between when stoning is required and divorce is permitted. The simple fact that there are these two remedies implies that we are talking about two different scenarios with regards to marriage.
It is also obvious that the religious leaders of His day knew that He was speaking of the betrothal period too, because when a woman was found in adultary, they dragged her out into the streets and quoted the law and its perscription for adultery, stoning an individual. They did not drag her out into the streets and say, "Jesus let's have her divorced from her husband!!"
This was the ONLY clause that God allowed Moses to insert for the "hardness"of men's hearts--during the betrothal period. If you remain under the Law, then you need to stone your unfaithful wife--not divorce her. Under the law, if you are betrothed to a wife and you find some uncleaness in her, you may divorce her. Under grace, none of this is permitted. Why? Well, because now we operate under the higher law of love--we seek to reflect the heart of God. We have the Holy Spirit which instructs us in His ways. God hates divorce. Do you think God's spirit which communicates the mind and heart of God will tell you to divorce your spouse? Would God's spirit do that, when the only reason He permitted it under the law was because of the hardness of men's hearts?
How can that be? God promised to give us hearts of flesh. We should not be seeking to do that which is called "hard-hearted." That flys in the face of what God sent Jesus Christ to do.--Give us hearts of flesh. Are we not regenerated? Do we not have the mind of Christ? Are we not indwelt with His Holy Spirit?
All of the Bible is telling about God. His great love, forebearance and mercy towards the sons of men. How is it possible that when He gives us of His Holy Spirit we respond like hard-hearted men, instead of flesh hearted sons of God?
God's words harmonize. The gospels harmonize. God is not a liar. And if we assume that He is saying that there IS a clause for a divorce in Matthew, then we make a liar of Him in all of the other gospels, including the epistles and letters of the apostles. His words cannot contradict. If we find that His words are contradicting, it simply means WE have interpreted it wrong. It is evidence that we must dig deeper, we do not have the Holy Spirit to teach us, or we are in denial.
Remember, God is holy. Pure. Hard-heartedness is impure, and not holy. Herein is where the law was weak--it could not change men's hearts. Hense the need for the betrothal/divorce clause. But now, we are indwelt by His spirit. In this, Christ's sacrifice, we have the ability to not only obey the law, but have a heart of flesh--able to go ABOVE the law.
This is what made Jesus Christ so hated. He went to the HEART of the matter, which is what the religious leaders of His day could not keep. They could keep the law, but they could not keep their hearts pure before Him. They were hard-hearted and sought clauses and outs and ambiguity so that they could pursue their own ends.
God has given us a heart to pursue HIS will. He HATES divorce. How can you do something God hates and still have His heart and will? Maybe you can persue your OWN will and your OWN heart, but we cannot confuse that with God's.
If you make a vow to God about something, please keep it. It doesn't matter whether the other person kept their word--we will all be responsible for what WE did on that Day.
That is the beauty of being a believer! We can say, "Not my will, but thy will be done." We live unto Christ, not ourselves, our righteousness, or our hard-heartedness.
Give God glory, and do what is right!
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ORIGINAL: benelchi
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ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
duet 24:1
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ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
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ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
As you know, we have no betrothal period now, so Deut 24:1 does not apply.
Source?
That's called a circular argument, and its invalid i.e.
1) "I say that Du. 24:1-4" refers only to a betrothal"
2) "Source?"
3) Return to step 1
Maybe it would help if I spell it out for you. What source do you have that supports the idea that Du. 24:1-4 refers only to the Betrothal?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2008 9:00:18 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1174
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
That's called a circular argument, and its invalid i.e.
1) "I say that Du. 24:1-4" refers only to a betrothal"
2) "Source?"
3) Return to step 1
That's not a circular argument, it is pointing people to the original reference, which is the only source we can trust.
This is a circular argument:
1) Adultery is the exception to the divorce and remarriage law
2) Everyone who engages in an illegal divorce and remarriage is committing adultery
3) Therefore if one divorces and remarries illegally, return to step one
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/14/2008 11:49:08 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3001
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
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ORIGINAL: Servant4theLord
The word of God is the absolute truth and this is what I stand on. Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Greetings Servant4,
Of course you know that this verse was included in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. In this section of the sermon Jesus was specifically "contrasting" His interpretation of the Law with that of the Jewish traditional interpretation: Ye have heard it was by them of old." And each time Jesus contradicted the traditional interpretation with the objection "BUT I SAY UNTO YOU.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Again:
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Adultery was a capital crime:
Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Jesus did not come to destroy the Law ... But to fulfill the Law ... the Law did not provide a divorce clause for adultery ... it ONLY offered the DEATH penalty. This was not some form of a "mystical death" of the marriage ... it was the actual "literal death of both adulterer and adulteress."
Therefore the word "fornication" in Matt. 5:32 cannot mean "sexual impurity or immorality in full legal marriage" for even the event of looking upon the nakedness of another then the man's true wife was tantmount to adultery.
The problem with this interpretation is that Jesus was NOT contrasting his command against the law, but against the interpretation of the Law by the Jewish Rabbis. In each and every case they had extended the Law to mean something that had never been intended. In the case of divorce, by the first century they had permitted divorce for nearly any reason (based on the teaching of Hillel), and death for adultery was something rarely if ever practiced. Jesus' teaching was a correction of the interpretation of the Law, not an abolishment of it. Jesus himself clearly said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." just moments before he spoke about the correct interpretation of the Law.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 12:04:46 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3001
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
benelchi & iserveajew,
It is written that divorce was permitted for the hardness of men's hearts. The context of when divorce was permitted under the OT was simply restated by Jesus Christ, per Deut 24:1. During this time, the religious leaders who had perverted the law, would come to Jesus Christ, and ask Him a question and Jesus would correct them.
If Jesus Christ was speaking of the infidelty of a married woman, the perscription for that was stoning--not divorce. Obviously there is a distinction in the Law between when stoning is required and divorce is permitted. The simple fact that there are these two remedies implies that we are talking about two different scenarios with regards to marriage.
However, it is clear from historical records that stoning for adultery was not practiced in the first century; the record of Joseph and Mary is a good biblical example of this. Joseph was worrying about bringing public disgrace to Mary; he was not worried about killing her. Additionally, other writings from the first century also indicate the fact that capital punishment was seldom if ever used during the time of Christ for incidents of adultery.
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It is also obvious that the religious leaders of His day knew that He was speaking of the betrothal period too, because when a woman was found in adultary, they dragged her out into the streets and quoted the law and its perscription for adultery, stoning an individual. They did not drag her out into the streets and say, "Jesus let's have her divorced from her husband!!"
This one of the best stories that really highlights the practice of first Century Judaism in the case of capital punishment for adultery. First glaringly absent from this story is the presence of the man who had also committed adultery (according to the Torah both he and the woman were to be stoned) Second, the Jewish leaders were clearly trying to trap Jesus by forcing him to either choose capital punishment for the woman and defy the Roman government, or refuse capitol punishment and be accused of defying God's Law. This trap would have been meaningless if capitol punishment were regularly being exercised in the case of adultery.
As far as "fornication" being related to betrothal. We have no records from the 1st - 5th centuries indicating such an understanding, and many that indicate quite the opposite.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 5:57:29 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2944
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
Status: offline
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This was the ONLY clause that God allowed Moses to insert for the "hardness"of men's hearts--during the betrothal period. If you remain under the Law, then you need to stone your unfaithful wife--not divorce her. Under the law, if you are betrothed to a wife and you find some uncleaness in her, you may divorce her. Under grace, none of this is permitted.
Yes, God hates divorce. So do we. From the beginning it was not so. But neither was sin yet when it happened God took steps to deal with it. Men were hard hearted, they still are.
Let me make sure you are not saying what this actually says. Are you implying that a couple can't even break their engagement (betrothal)?
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 8:46:05 AM
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DaveW
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