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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/17/2007 9:24:22 PM
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rosswell59
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Lurker,
The church is in a ruinous condition with regard to responsible testimony. Paul warned the Corinthians to take care how they built. We also see failure predicted and warnings given to the Ephesian elders in Acts. None of this failure no matter how great can thwart the Lord's plan to bring her home to heaven to be His holy bride. This is what is meant in Matt. 16:18. Interestingly, in Acts and in 2 Tim. where we have failure brought in, we have scripture commended. That's because scripture is our sure guide through uncertainty.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/17/2007 9:31:57 PM
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sisterfaith
Posts: 21
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjamesquote:
…And if one of them IS that same Church that descends from the original, why are we not joined to her?...
They aren’t, we shouldn’t. I apologize, I didn't make my self clear.
I didn't mean the RCC or the EOC. I meant whoever is the real Church. Either the RCC, EOC, Lutherans, Baptists, etc... Take you pick.
My point was if there is a True Church, shouldn't we be joined to them?
The true church consists of Bible believing, Born again Christians! And there is nothing in the Bible that says the Apostles appointed successors
< Message edited by sisterfaith -- 8/17/2007 9:39:28 PM >
_____________________________
Luke 10:27......You must Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind. And Love your neighbor as youself.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/17/2007 9:35:33 PM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1002
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Ezra,
Do you believe the OT saints are in the church? Hades is the place of death. Although the church may appear destroyed as it has lost its visible collective testimony it really isn't as God is working in grace to assure that it reaches its final destiny. There is a parallel between this and Christ's death. As far as the world is concerned Christ is dead and so is His church because they can point at all the different churches and ask "which church".
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/17/2007 10:08:44 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Ezra,
Do you believe the OT saints are in the church? Yours in Christ,
Ross, the first thing to be clear about is that redemption is through the blood of Christ, and unless that blood has been applied to a soul, that person cannot be a saint in God's eyes. Therefore, the OT saints had that blood applied to their souls, as much as it is to ours.
Having said that, I believe Scripture does make a very fine distinction between the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body since Pentecost) and the OT saints. We read in Heb. 12:22-24:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, who are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel".
We notice several very significant things in these verses:
1. The New Jerusalem (also called mount Zion, the city of the living God) is presently inhabited.
2. God and Christ are there, as is "the blood of sprinkling" on God's throne, which is now our Mercy Seat.
3. An innumerable company of angels is also there.
4. The Church (also called the general assembly of the firstborn) is there with God and Christ.
5. The "spirits of just men made perfect" are also there.
It is believed by many (including myself) that the spirits of just men made perfect speaks of the OT saints, since they were justified by grace through faith, and they were perfected through the offering of Christ and His shed blood, and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
If we take this are the proper interpretation, then the Church is strictly the redeemed ones (both Jew and Gentile) between Pentecost and the Second Coming of Christ, and the OT saints are alongside.
Ever since the resurrection of Christ, all redeemed souls go to Heaven (or to be more precise, the New Jerusalem). However, since Paradise is within the New Jerusalem, and the OT saints went to Paradise, we are justified in saying that from the time Christ removed the OT saints from Hades, the gates of Hades (hell) could not prevail against the Church in the broadest sense of redeemed ones.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/18/2007 12:52:59 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Matthew 16:18.
specifically the part about "and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."
Lurker:
Three things should be carefully noted in this verse:
1. Peter is petros but the Rock on which Christ builds His church is petra -- Himself.
2. "My Church" is the Body of Christ -- each and every redeemed soul which has been purchased with His blood. This goes far beyond any organization of earth -- it is a living organism, with Christ as the Head.
3. Hell is Hades, the abode of the departed dead, which, before the resurrection of Christ held all the OT saints in "Abraham's bosom".
So, far from teaching the invincibility of the Catholic Church, this verse tells us that because the Church (as His Body) is built upon Christ Himself, Hades could not hold the OT saints captive, but they were taken up when Christ ascended up to Heaven. He first descended into Hades voluntarily (as the creeds affirm), and then ascended out of Hades on the third day.
Thus we read in Eph. 4:8 "Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men".
The gates of Hades were torn asunder when Christ led the captives out of Hades into Paradise.
Dear Ezra,
It's actually "Kepha(s)", sometimes spelled "Cepha(s)". Jesus was speaking Aramaic at the time. Although even if He were speaking Greek, the grammatical structure Greek still shows Peter to be the rock. If you're familiar with languages that have have masculine and feminine forms you would know that even though the word Petra means rock, since it's feminine you'd have to change it to the masculine form, Petros, for it to be used as a name for a male. :)
As to the rest, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. It seems to me that Christ is promising that the Church will not be defeated and the gates of Hell will not prevail in bringing it down. And well, I trust in Jesus' ability to protect His Church and keep His promises. :)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/18/2007 10:15:21 AM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1002
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Lurker,
Check your concordance. It's petros in the passage about building the church.
Ezra,
We are in agreement regarding the OT saints.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/18/2007 11:04:50 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2926
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sisterfaith
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjamesquote:
…And if one of them IS that same Church that descends from the original, why are we not joined to her?...
They aren’t, we shouldn’t. I apologize, I didn't make my self clear.
I didn't mean the RCC or the EOC. I meant whoever is the real Church. Either the RCC, EOC, Lutherans, Baptists, etc... Take you pick.
My point was if there is a True Church, shouldn't we be joined to them?
The true church consists of Bible believing, Born again Christians! And there is nothing in the Bible that says the Apostles appointed successors
AMEN sister ! 
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/18/2007 11:39:15 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5696
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sisterfaith
The true church consists of Bible believing, Born again Christians
Now that statement is the rock that the Church is built on.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/18/2007 2:39:28 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Lurker,
Check your concordance. It's petros in the passage about building the church.
Ezra,
We are in agreement regarding the OT saints.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
Dear Ross,
Check your Church history, Eusebius remarks in his history of the Church that the Gospel was originally written in Aramaic, and later translated to Greek. And we all know that the scriptures are inerrant in their original form right? :) That said, there's evidence in the Gospels that Jesus spoke Aramaic, notice what He said on the Cross? "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"
That is not Greek, that is Aramaic. That said, we also know that Paul referred to Peter as Cephas, an alternate spelling of Kephas, 4 times in Galatians, and another 4 times in 1 Corinthians.
But even if it was petros, it still would show that He was building in on Peter. :)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/18/2007 2:50:44 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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quote:
And there is nothing in the Bible that says the Apostles appointed successors
Sis,
This has probably been mentioned in this thread already but there is a little problem with that statement given the fact Mattias is appointed in Acts 1:15-26. These appointments are continued with Paul via Timothy.
Otis
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 4:56:03 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3899
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quote:
quote:
And there is nothing in the Bible that says the Apostles appointed successors Sis,
This has probably been mentioned in this thread already but there is a little problem with that statement given the fact Mattias is appointed in Acts 1:15-26. These appointments are continued with Paul via Timothy.
Otis
There's not the slightest bit of evidence that these "appointments" were continued after the appointing of Matthias; and, that being done to keep the number at "twelve" - for a short period of time.
In fact, there is not only evidence but actual proof they did not continue. After the death of the Apostle James, the son of Zebedee, there never was another appointment to that office - successors to the Apostles.
God simply made no provision for such a thing.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 9:13:47 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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quote:
In fact, there is not only evidence but actual proof they did not continue. After the death of the Apostle James, the son of Zebedee, there never was another appointment to that office - successors to the Apostles.
Dear kelman, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but lack of evidence is not proof.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 9:16:28 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5696
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Dear kelman, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but lack of evidence is not proof.
Hey Walter, glad to have you back; don't necessarily agree with the post, but glad to have you back.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 10:49:28 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
But even if it was petros, it still would show that He was building in on Peter.
Lurker:
Do you really believe that the Church -- those redeemed by God with the blood of Christ -- could be "built" upon a mere sinful mortal like Peter?
The fact that God Himself -- God the Son -- had to come to this earth, take human form, and die of the Cross for our sins should tell you that the Church can only be built upon one Person -- the Lord Jesus Christ.
Peter considered himself an elder and an apostle. Nothing more. Paul considered Peter another mere mortal, capable of sinning and being rebuked. So petros/kepha/Cephas was indeed the leading apostle, but petra is the Rock of our salvation -- Christ Jesus Himself.
That Christ is the Rock is clearly stated in Scripture, and that God is our Rock and our Fortress is also clearly stated in Scripture. Why do you choose a mere mortal over the Lord God Almighty? Looks like idolatry.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 2:55:06 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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quote:
There's not the slightest bit of evidence that these "appointments" were continued after the appointing of Matthias; and, that being done to keep the number at "twelve" - for a short period of time.
In fact, there is not only evidence but actual proof they did not continue. After the death of the Apostle James, the son of Zebedee, there never was another appointment to that office - successors to the Apostles.
God simply made no provision for such a thing.
See this is the trouble with "bible only" folks--show them from the bible and it still isn't good enough! Does anyone mention that Matthias was hired from "temp" section of the paper? There is lots of other proof as well.
Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.
Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.
Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.
2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.
1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
Otis
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 4:14:21 PM
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sisterfaith
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I'm sorry, but the Apostles had NO successors! Because to succeed them one needed to be a witness of Christ's ressurection! And Christ WAS the head of the Apostles, NOT peter!
_____________________________
Luke 10:27......You must Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind. And Love your neighbor as youself.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 6:26:58 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sisterfaith
I'm sorry, but the Apostles had NO successors! Because to succeed them one needed to be a witness of Christ's ressurection! And Christ WAS the head of the Apostles, NOT peter! Actually they did have successors. Not Apostles, but Bishops. And they in turn appointed elders, deacons, etc...
This of course does not imply the Bishop alone has Apostolic authority, except if united with the whole Church.
Christ appointed the Apostles. They in turn appointed the Bishops, who in turn appointed priests and deacons. And at least two or three Bishops appointing other Bishops. This is what is meant by Apostolic succession.
One can easily verify if a local pastor comes from this succession, if you can trace their predecessors back to Christ. If they don't, then they were appointed outside the Church.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 6:52:32 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
But even if it was petros, it still would show that He was building in on Peter.
Lurker:
Do you really believe that the Church -- those redeemed by God with the blood of Christ -- could be "built" upon a mere sinful mortal like Peter?
If He can turn one of the most vicious persecuters of the early Church into one of it's well known apostles then He can certainly make a mere sinful mortal into the earthly leader of His Church can He not? After all, all things are possible with God. :)
quote:
The fact that God Himself -- God the Son -- had to come to this earth, take human form, and die of the Cross for our sins should tell you that the Church can only be built upon one Person -- the Lord Jesus Christ.
Correct. And since He founded the Church, He can certainly choose anyone He wanted to to whatever role He wanted. He chose Peter to be the leader of His Church. :)
quote:
Peter considered himself an elder and an apostle. Nothing more. Paul considered Peter another mere mortal, capable of sinning and being rebuked. So petros/kepha/Cephas was indeed the leading apostle, but petra is the Rock of our salvation -- Christ Jesus Himself.
And what did Christ say? "You are Kephas, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."
So, in a sense, Christ is the bedrock of the Church, and Peter the keystone of the actual building. :)
quote:
That Christ is the Rock is clearly stated in Scripture, and that God is our Rock and our Fortress is also clearly stated in Scripture. Why do you choose a mere mortal over the Lord God Almighty? Looks like idolatry.
I'm simply accepting Jesus' at His word. He says Peter is the Rock. I believe. :)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 8:23:29 PM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1002
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quote:
Actually they did have successors. Not Apostles, but Bishops. And they in turn appointed elders, deacons, etc...
This of course does not imply the Bishop alone has Apostolic authority, except if united with the whole Church.
Christ appointed the Apostles. They in turn appointed the Bishops, who in turn appointed priests and deacons. And at least two or three Bishops appointing other Bishops. This is what is meant by Apostolic succession.
Walter,
It's kind of slick the way you transitioned your post from the scriptural word elder to the unscriptural transliteration of priest. A priest is hierus of which we see all believers are and an elder is a prebyteros. Secondly, there is no instruction for bishops to appoint elders and deacons, much less more bishops. Unlike apostles, which are an ecumenical gift, bishops, elders and deacons are all local offices. Timothy, who appointed such was never referred to as holding such an office. Rather we read that he had a gift which he was encouraged to develop. It would seem that this particular gift enabled him to appoint bishops and elders. We read of some having the gift of oversight and this may be the gift Timothy had. In such a case the church simply had to recognize the gift rather than honor some official appointment.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 10:03:50 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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quote:
I'm sorry, but the Apostles had NO successors! Because to succeed them one needed to be a witness of Christ's ressurection! And Christ WAS the head of the Apostles, NOT peter!
Sister,
I'm just sorry but you didn't mention anything about Matthius?? Who was in charge when Christ departed??
Otis
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/19/2007 10:31:51 PM
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kielbasa
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And to whom did they go when the gentiles needed to know what they needed to do to become Christians?
They didn't go to Scripture--it did not address the question.
They went to the bishops who had been appointed.
_____________________________
"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/20/2007 12:28:22 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
I'm sorry, but the Apostles had NO successors! Because to succeed them one needed to be a witness of Christ's ressurection! And Christ WAS the head of the Apostles, NOT peter!
Sister,
I'm just sorry but you didn't mention anything about Matthius??
I'm sorry, I don't mean to answer for sisterfaith, but, ... who is Matthius?
Did you mean Matthias? The one the Lord chose to take the place of Judas in order to complete the twelve that Jesus had commissioned to establish His Church?
Matthias did not "succeed" Judas. To "succeed" another, to be a "successor", implies one would have to be an heir, or eligible to inherit. IF Matthias was the "successor" to Judas, then the only thing he could inherit from Judas would be "transgression", and "his own place", as Judas "fell" from his apostleship (commission) -- and left nothing to inherit.
IF Matthias was Judas' heir, he would NOT have been chosen by the Lord to be an apostle.
Matthias "replaced" Judas -- He was NOT Judas' successor. The Lord chose him to take up the apostleship that Judas fell from.
quote:
Who was in charge when Christ departed??
Um ... Christ. Last I checked He was still the head of the Church. (See also Eph 5:23; Col 1:18)
Eph 1:19-23
and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
<><
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/20/2007 8:15:56 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Walter,
It's kind of slick the way you transitioned your post from the scriptural word elder to the unscriptural transliteration of priest. A priest is hierus of which we see all believers are and an elder is a prebyteros. This is because of the English language. It has nothing to do with being slick. If you go to a Greek Orthodox Church, the priest is called presbutero, and his wife, presbutera. Why was that transliterated to priest in English is beyond me, but this is the way it is.
quote:
Secondly, there is no instruction for bishops to appoint elders and deacons, much less more bishops. Paul instructed both Timothy and Titus who were Bishops to appoint "presbuteros".
quote:
Unlike apostles, which are an ecumenical gift, bishops, elders and deacons are all local offices. I can't say I disagree with this.
quote:
Timothy, who appointed such was never referred to as holding such an office. Rather we read that he had a gift which he was encouraged to develop. I think we are arguing semantics, for the scripture does mention the office of Bishop or Overseer, or whatever your translation has.
quote:
In such a case the church simply had to recognize the gift rather than honor some official appointment. Not sure where this theory comes from. Did the Church had to recognize the "gift" of Timothy or Titus or others appointed by the Apostles in order to fulfill their office? What about "elders/presbuteros", since you don't like "priest", and deacons?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/20/2007 11:21:11 AM
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sisterfaith
Posts: 21
Joined: 8/17/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
And there is nothing in the Bible that says the Apostles appointed successors
Sis,
This has probably been mentioned in this thread already but there is a little problem with that statement given the fact Mattias is appointed in Acts 1:15-26. These appointments are continued with Paul via Timothy.
Otis
First of all the RCC teaches that Peter was the head of the Apostles, Well the Bible teaches that Christ was the head of the Apostles (John 13:13).
Rcc teaches that the bishops are the successors of the Apostles
Bible teaches that the Apostles had no successors, for to succeed them one needed to be a witness of Christ's ressurection!
Rcc teaches that the pope, as the bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter.
Bible teaches that Peter had no successor.
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Luke 10:27......You must Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind. And Love your neighbor as youself.
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