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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/28/2007 1:55:42 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
And the RCC has its own version and the Anglican church has its version too all iron clad and provable.
Then add to the mix the Apostolic Churches which have no connection with these tradtionalist churches, yet believe they are the true heirs of the apostles.
One can't have four or five warring factions all being the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Therefore the non-traditionalist must insist that the true Church -- the Body of Christ -- is simply all genuine regenerated Christians, no matter what their outward stripe may be. "There is ONE Body" and this is that one Body engrafted into Christ.
"Be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal. 5:1).
< Message edited by Ezra -- 7/28/2007 2:01:55 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/28/2007 2:26:36 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Therefore the non-traditionalist must insist that the true Church -- the Body of Christ -- is simply all genuine regenerated Christians, no matter what their outward stripe may be. Must insist? Why? What is the rationale behind this?
quote:
"There is ONE Body" and this is that one Body engrafted into Christ. If this is true, then one cannot insist all are the Church. It is beyond reason.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/28/2007 2:43:16 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Therefore the non-traditionalist must insist that the true Church -- the Body of Christ -- is simply all genuine regenerated Christians, no matter what their outward stripe may be. Must insist? Why? What is the rationale behind this?
The rationale behind this is that when Paul addressed the Corinthians and said that they were that Body, he was not implying by any means that the Christians in Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch, and Thessalonica (as examples) were excluded from that Body. The Body has no geographical limits.
quote:
quote:
There is ONE Body" and this is that one Body engrafted into Christ. If this is true, then one cannot insist all are the Church. It is beyond reason.
It is beyond human reason, but with God all things are possible. All those who are truly born again and children of God are "the Church". It is a spiritual reality, not a physical entity, since Christ is the Head and His Body is the Church.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/28/2007 3:00:34 AM
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rosswell59
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Walter,
All believers make up the One True church not their churches per se. They are in a scattered condition unless they gather simply to Christ's name. Even if we do gather in Christ's name doesn't mean that those who don't aren't part of the church, they are simply in a scattered state as were the Israelites in Babylon when Ezra and Nehemiah led a remnant back to Jerusalem. Those who returned to Jerusalem represented all Israel but could not say that they were Israel in its entirety. Likewise, in scripture when we act according to 2 Tim. 2:21, 22 we cannot claim to be the church in its entirety but merely a true representation of it. Both traditionalism and protestantism are oblivious to this truth.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
< Message edited by rosswell59 -- 7/28/2007 5:06:43 AM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/28/2007 11:41:00 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The rationale behind this is that when Paul addressed the Corinthians and said that they were that Body, he was not implying by any means that the Christians in Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch, and Thessalonica (as examples) were excluded from that Body. The Body has no geographical limits. I agree there are no geographical limits, but that is not what you were talking about. You said "no matter what their outward stripe may be".
The early Church was not separated by stripes, for those who did have different stripes where schismatics, and were not in communion with the Church. Other than that, the Church was in communion. But that is not the case today with Protestants. They can't all be the Church when they are not in communion with each other, and even less when not together with the ancient communion founded by Christ.
quote:
It is beyond human reason, but with God all things are possible. All those who are truly born again and children of God are "the Church". It is a spiritual reality, not a physical entity, since Christ is the Head and His Body is the Church. Where does it speak of individuals as the Church?
I understand what you mean, but this was not the normal use of the language. When someone spoke of the Church, they meant a physical entity, or organization made up of Christians who gathered together. The Church was not just a spiritual body, but a physical one too.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/28/2007 11:53:28 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Walter,
All believers make up the One True church not their churches per se. Where do you get this doctrine from?
quote:
They are in a scattered condition You mean they are schismatics with heresies.
quote:
Even if we do gather in Christ's name doesn't mean that those who don't aren't part of the church, they are simply in a scattered state as were the Israelites in Babylon when Ezra and Nehemiah led a remnant back to Jerusalem. How can they be the Church if they are not in Christ?
quote:
Likewise, in scripture when we act according to 2 Tim. 2:21, 22 we cannot claim to be the church in its entirety but merely a true representation of it. If you can't, then you're in the wrong place. Also, the Church is not a representation, or a replica, it is a living entity. I like UWS description better, but I can't find it.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/28/2007 4:12:57 PM
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rosswell59
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Walter,
Israel wasn't supposed to be a remnant out of two tribes living under Gentile rule while the rest remained scattered but that is how they ended up. So it is with the church. She is comprised of a heavenly chosen people with an earthly testimony for the time being until she is taken out of the earth to her final destination as the heavenly bride of Christ. This earthly testimony is in a state of failure but that can't thwart God's purpose for her to be the heavenly bride. This is what was meant when the Lord said the gates of Hades would not prevail against her. Satan and the world are allowed a temporary victory which really amounts to defeat when all is said and done. For now her true glory is hidden to the world but when she returns with Christ out of heaven it will be revealed. We are in a time of patience when Christ is in heaven waiting for His enemies to be made the footstools of His feet.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/28/2007 4:36:08 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Walter,
Israel wasn't supposed to be a remnant out of two tribes living under Gentile rule while the rest remained scattered but that is how they ended up. So it is with the church. Where does it say the Church will be scattered as Israel was?
quote:
She is comprised of a heavenly chosen people with an earthly testimony for the time being until she is taken out of the earth to her final destination as the heavenly bride of Christ. This earthly testimony is in a state of failure but that can't thwart God's purpose for her to be the heavenly bride. How can you contradict the Holy Scripture when it is clear the gates of Hell will not prevail, and that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth?
quote:
This is what was meant when the Lord said the gates of Hades would not prevail against her. Satan and the world are allowed a temporary victory which really amounts to defeat when all is said and done. This doesn't make sense. Would not prevail amounts to defeat?
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For now her true glory is hidden to the world but when she returns with Christ out of heaven it will be revealed. We are in a time of patience when Christ is in heaven waiting for His enemies to be made the footstools of His feet. I think you're referring to the millenium which was condemned as heresy long ago.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/28/2007 5:09:57 PM
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rosswell59
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Walter,
The world was allowed a temporary victory over Christ by putting Him to death. Now faith realizes that He is really victorious but to the world He appears defeated. So it is with His church. The church is seated in Christ in heavenly places but her testimony is obscured by sectarianism and unfaithfulness in all which is associated with the name of Christ.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/29/2007 12:49:16 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
I think you're referring to the millenium which was condemned as heresy long ago.
Christ was condemned as a blasphemer by His traditionalist enemies also. That did not make it so.
Neither does the condemnation of the Millenium by the later traditionalists make it so. In fact it condemns the traditionalists as false.
The Millenium has been revealed by God to man. Beware that we call God's revelations "heresies".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/29/2007 2:44:01 PM
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rosswell59
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I copied this post from the SS thread as I believe it is applicable to this thread as well:
We were reading Acts 20 this morning and this came to my attention as relevant to this discussion.
Paul calls the Ephesian elders together and after assuring them that he had taught them all that there was to know and warning them what would happen after his decease tells them this:
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
This is the only apostolic succession we have, God and the word of His grace.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/29/2007 11:05:21 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
I think you're referring to the millenium which was condemned as heresy long ago. Christ was condemned as a blasphemer by His traditionalist enemies also. That did not make it so.
Neither does the condemnation of the Millenium by the later traditionalists make it so. The later traditionalists you are referring to is the Church.
quote:
In fact it condemns the traditionalists as false. No.
quote:
The Millenium has been revealed by God to man. Beware that we call God's revelations "heresies". It is a heresy, and God did not reveal the millennium as is understood today by many Protestants. In your belief, you have two second comings of Christ. One when the millennium starts, and the other, at the end of the millennium. There is also the flaw where Christ will reign during the millennium. What about after it? Does Christ cease to reign? The Holy Scripture is clear His kingdom has no end, it is not only for a millennium.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/29/2007 11:31:09 PM
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rosswell59
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Walter,
His kingdom is earthly and goes on forever as far as earth is concerned. This also happens to be 1000 years. How would Christ be coming twice if He rules in the kingdom the entire 1000 years?
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/30/2007 12:48:21 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
quote:
The Millenium has been revealed by God to man. Beware that we call God's revelations "heresies".
It is a heresy, and God did not reveal the millennium as is understood today by many Protestants. In your belief, you have two second comings of Christ. One when the millennium starts, and the other, at the end of the millennium. There is also the flaw where Christ will reign during the millennium. What about after it? Does Christ cease to reign? The Holy Scripture is clear His kingdom has no end, it is not only for a millennium.
Walter:
I am not referring to anyone's "interpretation" of the Millenium. I am referring to Revelation 20:1-9, where the phrase "a thousand years" or "the thousand years" occurs no less than FIVE times.
Since a thousand years = 1 Millenium, the heresy is that of your church in denying the existence of a Millenium in the face of Scripture.
It is also clear that this Millenium occurs between the Second Coming of Christ and the establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth.
If your church can call the Millenium a "heresy" then there is no reason to believe that it may not be seriously in error about many other Bible truths.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/30/2007 8:05:28 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Walter,
His kingdom is earthly and goes on forever as far as earth is concerned. His kingdom is not earthly.
quote:
This also happens to be 1000 years. How would Christ be coming twice if He rules in the kingdom the entire 1000 years? Good observation, but look at the logistics regarding the supposed future millennium, there are two comings of Christ. One at the beginning, and one at the end.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/30/2007 8:13:58 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Walter:
I am not referring to anyone's "interpretation" of the Millenium. I am referring to Revelation 20:1-9, where the phrase "a thousand years" or "the thousand years" occurs no less than FIVE times.
Since a thousand years = 1 Millenium, the heresy is that of your church in denying the existence of a Millenium in the face of Scripture. The Church does not deny Revelation 20 at all. You say a thousand years is equal to a millennium, but the scripture says a thousand years is as one day with the Lord. And since Revelation is full of mysteries, for example the horses and many others, why would you take the thousand years literally? Have you ever thought that maybe it is one day? Not saying this is what we believe, we don't.
quote:
It is also clear that this Millenium occurs between the Second Coming of Christ and the establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth. The millennium starts at the second coming of Christ? No.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/30/2007 7:48:42 PM
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rosswell59
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Walter,
I don't understand where you get two second comings unless you are counting His coming to dwell in the new earth as the second second coming. Please elaborate.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/31/2007 12:26:11 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
The millennium starts at the second coming of Christ? No.
No. The Day of the Lord -- the Day of Wrath and the Day of Vengeance of our God -- starts at the Second Coming of Christ. This is when the wrath of the Lamb is displayed in all it's fury.
It is only after He has put all His enemies "under His feet" that He establishes the Millenium. And even after the Millenium, Satan is loosed for a season so that the hearts of men may be tested. Only then are the New Heaven and the New Earth estalbished.
But your church also rejects the wrath of God, and rejects the forensic nature of salvation. So there's an awful lot of Bible truth that goes out the window in Orthodoxy.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/31/2007 12:40:14 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Walter,
I don't understand where you get two second comings unless you are counting His coming to dwell in the new earth as the second second coming. Please elaborate. The general view among many Protestants is one during the rapture, which starts the millennium, and the other when Christ descends again with the saints, hence, two comings.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/31/2007 12:51:19 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
No. The Day of the Lord -- the Day of Wrath and the Day of Vengeance of our God -- starts at the Second Coming of Christ. This is when the wrath of the Lamb is displayed in all it's fury. That is an awful description about God who is Love and never changes. The whole book is full of symbolism, how can you take wrath literally?
quote:
It is only after He has put all His enemies "under His feet" that He establishes the Millenium. And even after the Millenium, Satan is loosed for a season so that the hearts of men may be tested. Only then are the New Heaven and the New Earth estalbished. So you believe Christ second coming is just before He puts all His enemies under His feet, and another coming when the new heaven and earth are established, meaning two second comings?
quote:
But your church also rejects the wrath of God, and rejects the forensic nature of salvation. So there's an awful lot of Bible truth that goes out the window in Orthodoxy. God is love, and this says the Holy Scripture. It also says He is the same yesterday, today and forever. There was never a moment in time, or is, or ever will be that God is not Love. Therefore, wrath is obviously not a character of God, but a natural consequence of man's doings.
Let's reason for a moment. Revelation speaks of a Lamb that was slain. Of course we know who this is, but do we believe it is an actual "lamb"? Of course not. So why do you take the "wrath" literally?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/31/2007 1:02:32 AM
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walterquez
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Dear Ezra, please forgive me for not making myself clear.
The millennium as described in Revelation is obviously "not" heresy. What is heresy is the erroneous interpretation of it. The Chiliasts, or Chialism, was the first to believe what the modern Protestants now believe. Again, what the scripture says it is fully accepted. What is not, is the erroneous interpretation. And this is because they, and now the Protestants, misunderstand the meaning of the first resurrection.
I don't know what is the position of the RCC regarding this.
But the point of this thread is not the millennium. It is only to prove that what the Church believed back then is what she believes now. And unfortunately, the Protestants are very welcome to new innovations, while the Orthodox are very stubborn to it, and with good reasons.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/31/2007 6:47:54 AM
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rosswell59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Walter,
I don't understand where you get two second comings unless you are counting His coming to dwell in the new earth as the second second coming. Please elaborate. The general view among many Protestants is one during the rapture, which starts the millennium, and the other when Christ descends again with the saints, hence, two comings.
Walter,
The rapture is not really a second coming as far as earth is concerned. He meets the saints in the air and takes us out of the earth. His second coming is as Ezra has pointed out in connection with judgement at the day of the Lord. At His first coming righteousness was presented to the world and rejected. At His second coming righteousness will be established on earth by judgement. He came as a lamb at the first and comes as a lion at the second. The church is simply a parenthetical calling between the two.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/31/2007 8:57:24 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This thread is about apostolicession not about the rapture and eschatology.
Get it back on topic please.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/31/2007 9:29:26 PM
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walterquez
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Dear rosswell, the point is that one can readily see that if a modern group has different beliefs, like that one we just discussed, than what the Church did about 2000 years ago, it is obvious this group is not the Church. They may be sincere, but sincerely wrong.
For the true New Testament Church, the faith that was yesterday, is still the same today. The Orthodox has a strong case for she has not waver. She is the pillar and ground of truth. And although many denominations claim they are more closer to the New Testament Church than others, they are still a replica. Not the real thing. The Orthodox do not compete with claims that she is more closer, because she is not more closer. The Orthodox "is" the New Testament Church.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/1/2007 10:03:45 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
For the true New Testament Church, the faith that was yesterday, is still the same today. The Orthodox has a strong case for she has not waver. She is the pillar and ground of truth. And although many denominations claim they are more closer to the New Testament Church than others, they are still a replica. Not the real thing. The Orthodox do not compete with claims that she is more closer, because she is not more closer. The Orthodox "is" the New Testament Church.
Just because error is acnient does not change the fact that it is error.
There was error trying to creep in spoken of in the New Testament, and it was dealt with. Too bad the EO organization decided to embrace and traditionalize error rather than correct some of it.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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