|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/21/2007 11:10:29 PM
|
|
|
GoodME_II
Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME_II
I challenge that the Truth is as easy to get at as some here would have it. I further assert that this leads to a devotional relativism, where the depth of the development of anyone's Faith is not constrained by the depth and breadth of the authoritative institution, but is limited by individual talents and resources.
Yes, those limitations require a strong personal commitment to overcome them. The institution is not seen as authoritative when it is (or is perceived to be) in contradiction to the Scriptures.
And of course, you are in the best position to judge the correctness of "institution", given your 2,000 years of insight into the development and guardianship of Faith....
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/21/2007 11:15:31 PM
|
|
|
GoodME_II
Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME_II
And I again challenge that everyone thinks that their Faith represents the true path of Faith, because if they didn't, they would convert and change to one that they could feel that way about, if they were serious at all about Christianity.
I think most "church people" think they are living for Christ, as in "just doing the best they can", and most, I say "most" are probably not worried about the best/most/truest idea as a separate issue from just knowing a certain peace with God.
Thank you for reiterating an earlier point and giving a great example of the thelogical relativism I discussed earlier. So our potential to participate in relationship with God is limited by our own personal resources to define this Faith for ourselves? There is no "deeper potential" that exists, such as being assisted by a pastor with specialized training in theology and history?
So we don't need Churches and pastors and ministers?
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/22/2007 5:39:16 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1784
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Correction, they don't agree with your interpretation of scripture.
That is a very glib dismissal of the serious deviations from Scripture that are found in the RCC.
What you are claiming is that there is not a single non-Catholic who can correctly interpret Scripture, and the RCC is the only source of correct interpretation.
Is this really true? History and reality do not bear this out.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/22/2007 10:33:02 PM
|
|
|
walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
That is a very glib dismissal of the serious deviations from Scripture that are found in the RCC.
What you are claiming is that there is not a single non-Catholic who can correctly interpret Scripture, and the RCC is the only source of correct interpretation.
Is this really true? History and reality do not bear this out. And you believe you can?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/22/2007 11:37:25 PM
|
|
|
rosswell59
Posts: 1002
Joined: 3/25/2006
Status: offline
|
Correctly interpret scripture? Yes we can.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/23/2007 8:07:50 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5696
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Correctly interpret scripture? Yes we can.
Yours in Christ,
Yes, indeed;
(1Jo 2:27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/23/2007 9:24:37 AM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1885
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME_II
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME_II
I challenge that the Truth is as easy to get at as some here would have it. I further assert that this leads to a devotional relativism, where the depth of the development of anyone's Faith is not constrained by the depth and breadth of the authoritative institution, but is limited by individual talents and resources.
Yes, those limitations require a strong personal commitment to overcome them. The institution is not seen as authoritative when it is (or is perceived to be) in contradiction to the Scriptures.
And of course, you are in the best position to judge the correctness of "institution", given your 2,000 years of insight into the development and guardianship of Faith....
More like "insight into" "2,000 years", which a responsible believer will educate themselves with using available materials.
The "institution" you speak of has not lain about like a 2,000 year-old iron hammer. Certain assumptive changes in relatively recent history come to mind. Its record is hardly immaculate.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/23/2007 9:28:04 AM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1885
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME_II
So we don't need Churches and pastors and ministers?
We don't need anyone beyond their responsible accountability.
Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/23/2007 10:28:20 AM
|
|
|
Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Correctly interpret scripture? Yes we can.
Yours in Christ,
Yes, indeed;
(1Jo 2:27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Thanks
RC
So then, if two believers both point to that verse claiming their interpretation is the correct one, yet they both say different things, how can we determine which interpretation is indeed the correct one?
For me, I would think that examining the writings of the early Christians would be a good start.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/23/2007 12:06:20 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5696
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
For me, I would think that examining the writings of the early Christians would be a good start.
Why would looking at old error be any more enlighting than looking at new error.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/23/2007 5:10:11 PM
|
|
|
rosswell59
Posts: 1002
Joined: 3/25/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Correctly interpret scripture? Yes we can.
Yours in Christ,
Yes, indeed;
(1Jo 2:27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Thanks
RC
So then, if two believers both point to that verse claiming their interpretation is the correct one, yet they both say different things, how can we determine which interpretation is indeed the correct one?
For me, I would think that examining the writings of the early Christians would be a good start.
I would have thought so too until I learned what that leads to and how badly the state of things got so early. The only sure way is to put it before the Lord and pray that you can agree on the truth. If both truly desire this in humble submission to God, don't you think they will get their wish?
Yours in Christ,
Ross
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/23/2007 6:41:56 PM
|
|
|
walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjamesquote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Correctly interpret scripture? Yes we can.
Yours in Christ, Yes, indeed; So you two are no different than the Pope you disdain, self proclaimed infallible bible interpreters.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/23/2007 8:53:30 PM
|
|
|
rosswell59
Posts: 1002
Joined: 3/25/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjamesquote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Correctly interpret scripture? Yes we can.
Yours in Christ, Yes, indeed; So you two are no different than the Pope you disdain, self proclaimed infallible bible interpreters.
No, we didn't say that we couldn't get scripture wrong. We only said that it is possible for us to get it right without Catholicism. In fact Catholicism is a big hindrance to getting it right since it is mostly wrong.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/23/2007 11:14:20 PM
|
|
|
GoodME_II
Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
No, we didn't say that we couldn't get scripture wrong. We only said that it is possible for us to get it right without Catholicism. In fact Catholicism is a big hindrance to getting it right since it is mostly wrong.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
Wow. How does a person respond to this?
Okay - you win.
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/25/2007 2:21:00 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5696
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
It is my understanding that in EO/RC treatment that the Chruch was handed to Peter and he was the first Pope (Bishop or whaterver) in Rome.
Would you please supply for us unwashed masses the succession from Peter to say the Pope of the hour in 400 AD.
It might just help us understand this Apostolic Succession thingy.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/25/2007 2:41:29 PM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1885
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Would you please supply for us unwashed masses the succession from Peter to say the Pope of the hour in 400 AD.
Thanks
RC
RC, I wash...sometimes!
It might really help to start with establishing Peter in the first place. It wouldn't help the cause if he were buried in, say, Jerusalem, rather than Rome would it?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/25/2007 3:04:51 PM
|
|
|
Super_Nova
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/15/2007
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
The True Church is not a denomination, but all who believe in Christ as their Savior.
Ditto
_____________________________
Smile!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/25/2007 7:04:34 PM
|
|
|
rosswell59
Posts: 1002
Joined: 3/25/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Would you please supply for us unwashed masses the succession from Peter to say the Pope of the hour in 400 AD.
Thanks
RC
RC, I wash...sometimes!
It might really help to start with establishing Peter in the first place. It wouldn't help the cause if he were buried in, say, Jerusalem, rather than Rome would it?
It's bad enough that Paul wrote to the Romans not Peter. And then there's all those other epistles Paul wrote to churches instructing them and Peter only wrote to Jewish believers.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/25/2007 9:24:45 PM
|
|
|
walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
It is my understanding that in EO/RC treatment that the Chruch was handed to Peter and he was the first Pope (Bishop or whaterver) in Rome. What do you mean by the Church handed to Peter? By Apostolic succession I don't mean that their immediate successor took over their Apostolic office. We don't have 12 Bishops. Also, Bishops do not appoint their successor. The Apostles appointed many Bishops, but a Bishop alone can not appoint other Bishops except there be 3 or 2 at the least. I could be wrong, and UWS can correct me if I am wrong.
quote:
Would you please supply for us unwashed masses the succession from Peter to say the Pope of the hour in 400 AD. You can go to any Orthodox Church, and you are very welcome to attend  , and they can prove to you the list of people who appointed them, and those who appointed them, and so on and so on all the way back to the Apostles. As you can imagine, if you gathered the list of all the parishes, it would be huge. It is like a tree with many branches, all descending from the same root.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/25/2007 9:46:10 PM
|
|
|
rosswell59
Posts: 1002
Joined: 3/25/2006
Status: offline
|
And the RCC has its own version and the Anglican church has its version too all iron clad and provable.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/26/2007 1:05:04 AM
|
|
|
unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
|
Finding a list of popes is not that hard....is your google not working? Try here.
For further reading here is a list of the patriarchs of Antioch during the first 500 or so years.
And here for the patriarchs of what became Constantinople:
And here to see the list of the bishops/patriarchs of Jerusalem.
Enjoy
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolicession - 7/26/2007 11:12:19 PM
|
|
|
walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Don't forget these.
Patriarchs of Russia.
Patriarchs of Alexandria, and of all Africa.
And there are a few more that came later.
I know the Russian Patriarchs starts several hundreds years later, but trust me, they have been there much longer that, and are directly connected to the rest of the Church.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/27/2007 8:46:54 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5696
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
So you two are no different than the Pope you disdain, self proclaimed infallible bible interpreters.
Walter I do not disdain the Pope, I am saddend that the RC organization feels that that Christ and the Holy Ghost are not sufficient and some man has to be elivated to Godlike status, so folks can have something to see. What ever happened to faith.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/27/2007 3:36:02 PM
|
|
|
GoodME_II
Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Walter I do not disdain the Pope, I am saddend that the RC organization feels that that Christ and the Holy Ghost are not sufficient and some man has to be elivated to Godlike status, so folks can have something to see. What ever happened to faith.
Well then - cheer up, dude, because it isn't anything like your post above. You should have been getting that by now.
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/27/2007 6:43:36 PM
|
|
|
walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Walter I do not disdain the Pope, I am saddend that the RC organization feels that that Christ and the Holy Ghost are not sufficient and some man has to be elivated to Godlike status, so folks can have something to see. What ever happened to faith. Well, I mean your complains about their belief of the Pope's infallibility, and all that, when you, without realizing it, or maybe not, and that would be scary, are practicing the same thing. You believe your interpretation is infallible. Or at least you believe that your interpretation is more correct than others. So how is what you believe about yourself any different than what the Pope believes about himself?
Tell me why your particular denomination is the Church. And even tho it goes against the Holy Scripture, for the Church is one body, not many, why it might be a part of it anyway.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
