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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 10:06:33 PM
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meep meep
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: i_believe
quote:
You have said Apostolicity is a lie because ( according to you ) it is not scripture:
Nope. Just said that it is the church that is Christ's body not some man made counterfeit. It is the truth of the Good News of Christ faithfully (by the Spirit) passed to all those the Lord would call.
Heb 8:10-12 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people. (11) They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. (12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Dear i-
You deny calling it or the church that believes it a lie- but you use the term counterfeit...
Last time I looked a counterfeit was a forgery, a deceptive copy whose intent is to defraud - a lie.
Many Blessings to you.
Meep
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 10:18:20 PM
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meep meep
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Meep and Unworthyserahpin,
I presume I owe both of you an apology, I have been maintaining that the arrogance and self-righteousness that I infered from your posts was not based on the Holy Scriptures. I have been proven wrong and I am stating that as publicly as I can; here on the forum where I challenged your stand as non-Scriptural. After prayer and much reading I have come to the conclusion that your stand is Scriptural. I know you call yourselves The Orthodox Church or something like that, but Christ, in all His wisdom and preciseness refers to the arrogant stance that you profess for your organization as the Church of Laodicia;
(Rev 3:13) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
(Rev 3:14) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
(Rev 3:15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
(Rev 3:16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
(Rev 3:17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
(Rev 3:18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Thanks
RC
Dear RC-
May the peace of Christ abound in your heart.
May the shed blood of His sacrifice absolve you of all sin, and may his mantle clothe you in righteousness.
May His holy Spirit continue to bless you, mold you and prosper you in Grace so that you may continue in your walk to know him. to love Him, and to serve Him in this life and the next.
In Christian Love, through Christ,
Meep
BTW- I do understand your insult and condemnation. Perhaps you can continue to pray for me so that I will become more Christian.
< Message edited by meep meep -- 9/24/2005 10:21:31 PM >
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 12:07:00 AM
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i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
You deny calling it or the church that believes it a lie- but you use the term counterfeit...
I do not deny the concept of apostolic succession in a sense... that we are "being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone".
I do not believe (nor does scripture show) anything like that which the "church" has claimed. There are significant differences even between the EOC and RCC regarding some major doctrines... and they both claim it is apostolic "tradition"... so who is the "church".
Eph 2:17-22 He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. (18) For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. (19) So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, (20) being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone; (21) in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord; (22) in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.
As Jesus said... "It is finished". The foundation is laid.
Act 20:26-28 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am clean from the blood of all men, (27) for I didn't shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. (28) Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.
Shepherd the flock... serve them... not lord it over them.
2Ti 2:1-2 You therefore, my child, be strengthened in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. (2) The things which you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit the same to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.
Teaching from the apostles not some new stuff that comes later.
2Pe 3:1-2 This is now, beloved, the second letter that I have written to you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by reminding you; (2) that you should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior:
We build on the foundation. Is there some indication that one has to "ordained" by the "church" to build on this foundation?
1Co 3:2-11 I fed you with milk, not with meat; for you weren't yet ready. Indeed, not even now are you ready, (3) for you are still fleshly. For insofar as there is jealousy, strife, and factions among you, aren't you fleshly, and don't you walk in the ways of men? (4) For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," aren't you fleshly? (5) Who then is Apollos, and who is Paul, but servants through whom you believed; and each as the Lord gave to him? (6) I planted. Apollos watered. But God gave the increase. (7) So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. (8) Now he who plants and he who waters are the same, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. (9) For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's farming, God's building. (10) According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another builds on it. But let each man be careful how he builds on it. (11) For no one can lay any other foundation than that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ.
"if a man seeks the office"
1Ti 3:1-2 This is a faithful saying: if a man seeks the office of an overseer, he desires a good work. (2) The overseer therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, modest, hospitable, good at teaching;
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 12:23:10 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ayani
MeepMeep and Walter:
I thought you were both Roman Catholic????? 
I too thought meep was RCC. I know unworthseraphim is.
But it is not my intention to promote the Church I attend. Otherwise the opinions stated here would be bias against whatever church I attend. Case in point, I never said what church I belong to. But several have assumed that I am RC, and therefore have judged me with that understanding. And besides, the church I go to may not be the real thing and could possibly be missing a lot.
My point here is to find the real Church, because I believe she has always been here. Christ has promised her He will never forsake her. I don't believe the Church is an invisible thing, but a physical entity which of course includes the departed Saints. Not all denominations, but one in particular. Not that the others are not saved, but simply missing their fullest potential.
It is also hard to believe that for a thousand years she was in error, but then a few hundred years ago, some have received a new revelation unknown to the Church, or forgotten knowledge about what Christianity is all about. This reminds me of a heretical group with the early Church who made such claims. I think they were the Montanists?
I also believe there is a physical continuity from the early Church even up to now. I don't believe there was a break or even a transfer. There is nothing in scripture that would suggest this.
I am not saying this, because I belong to a particular denomination. If you knew, you would be shocked. But from historical evidence, the Roman Catholic Church can claim roots to the early Church. And if you do a little more research, the RCC was once in unity with the Orthodox Church. Back then, it was just the Catholic Church, or the Univeral Church. So from historical evidence, according to the EOC, the RC left the unity, so that leaves the Orthodox Church as the True Church.
As I stated above, don't assume that I am either a RC or EOC. You would be shocked if you knew, which by the way it is not the point of this thread.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 12:33:31 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: i_believe
As Jesus said... "It is finished". The foundation is laid. Exactly, so why start another denomination for?
quote:
Shepherd the flock... serve them... not lord it over them. What does this have to do with the topic?
quote:
Teaching from the apostles not some new stuff that comes later. You're limiting God's word to just a few set of books. Is God no longer speaking to us? Where do you find in scripture that God will no longer speak to us? Don't bring up the passage in Revelation, because that passage only deal with the one John was writing, not other books.
quote:
We build on the foundation. Is there some indication that one has to "ordained" by the "church" to build on this foundation? Exactly. Anything that is built over it would be build upon the same foundation or ordained from the same foundation, not another foundation. Creating other denominations is basically building over nothing, because there is only one foundation, not many.
quote:
"if a man seeks the office"
1Ti 3:1-2 This is a faithful saying: if a man seeks the office of an overseer, he desires a good work. (2) The overseer therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, modest, hospitable, good at teaching; This is off topic.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 3:38:48 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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You know, I find it wonderful that you went ahead and posted all these verses that prove the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Church's POV in regards to scriptures. It saved me considerable time. :) Thank you! That said... I went ahead and emphasized a few things below for you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: i_believe
1Co 11:1-2 Be imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ. (2) Now I praise you, brothers, that you remember me in all things, and hold firm the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.
And how were these Traditions taught to the Church originally? By word of mouth, when Paul preached to the Corinthians. This letter is reminding them of that fact. :)
quote:
2Th 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm, and hold the traditions which you were taught by us, whether by word (of mouth), or by letter.
You'll note I added the two missing words from your translation that my translation had. As we can see here though, Paul is distinctly reminding them that not all the Traditions came to them by letter, they are to hold firm to the Traditions passed on to them by word of mouth.
quote:
2Ti 2:2 The things which you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit the same to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.
Again we find the Apostle Paul telling Timothy to pass on the teachings that were taught to him by word of mouth and to make sure they get entrusted to faithful men as well so that these oral Traditions would be disseminated to the Church throughout time. :)
quote:
"as I delivered them to you"
And you'll remember that Paul delivered a great many of his teachings to the various Churchs by his preaching, not just by his letters.
quote:
There is no authority given for new traditions that came 50, 100, 1000 years later.
And all we get is "trust us... the Apostles taught us these things."
Well, if Timothy followed his instructions in 2 Tim 2:2, then why shouldn't we trust them?
quote:
Peter supported the teaching (by tradition) of things that were not true. But the scriptures stand as the rock of truth against which all other "truth" is measured. It stands alone in this regard.
So, if we are to trust only the Scriptures that were accesible to Peter, Paul, and the other apostles, then we are left with.... The Septuagaint scriptures, IE, the Old Testament. Remember, the letters sent by Peter, Paul, John, and the others weren't available or else weren't considered as Scripture yet. To the various churches, they were just letters reminding them of the teachings given to them by the Apostles when they had preached there.
quote:
Gal 2:11-14 But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned. (12) For before some people came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. (13) And the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. (14) But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?
This seems to me to be a minor matter of doctrine. And it was resolved when the various apostles had a meeting about it... Somewhat like a council. In fact, I've heard that these discussions are regarded as the first council of Jerusalem if I recall correctly.
quote:
Act 15:24-31 Because we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law,' to whom we gave no commandment; (25) it seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, (26) men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. (27) We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves will also tell you the same things by word of mouth. (28) For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things: (29) that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you. Farewell." (30) So, when they were sent off, they came to Antioch. Having gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. (31) When they had read it, they rejoiced over the encouragement.
By letter and word it was confirmed. Not by word alone. They did not say "trust us, that is what the other apostles told us to say".
The "church" says to trust that these "essential" teachings were not essential enough to be committed to scripture but are essential to the Christian faith. 
The letters were passed between churches... each a witness to the integrity of the other. Each teaching and correcting "traditions" and other false ideas of men.
By letter and word in that one instance. The letter in the instance above is a result of the first council in Jerusalem. Since then there have been quite a few more councils. I know that our most beloved Orthodox brothers and sisters accept the first 7 councils (I think the Coptic Church recognizes the first 3 but has no disagreements from the next 4 iirc). And after the Schism (which I pray is mended soon) the Catholic Church has had nearly 20 more councils, the most recent being the Vatican II council. I myself am wondering if Pope Benedict will ask the Orthodox Patriarchs to join the Catholic Church in a council. Maybe we can get that darned filioque controversy ironed out for good! :)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 3:24:05 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Catholicism and Orthodoxy, proclaiming the Truth since 33 AD. Cool
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 4:38:33 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: ayani
MeepMeep and Walter:
I thought you were both Roman Catholic?????
I too thought meep was RCC. I know unworthseraphim is.
When did unworthy switch over to RCC? He's been EOC for as long as I've read his posts.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 4:41:22 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
I also believe there is a physical continuity from the early Church even up to now. I don't believe there was a break or even a transfer. There is nothing in scripture that would suggest this.
Nothing in scripture to suggest this? Have you never read the O.T.? Where is the physical continuity and line of succession of the O.T. church?
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 4:44:06 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
When did unworthy switch over to RCC? He's been EOC for as long as I've read his posts. I meant that he is EOC, not RCC.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 4:47:54 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
Nothing in scripture to suggest this? Have you never read the O.T.? Where is the physical continuity and line of succession of the O.T. church? That's right, nothing. I have read the OT. Thru the Levites.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 4:52:54 PM
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bekalc
Posts: 214
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The levites, and Jesus talked about how the pharisees sat on the seat of Moses. Which would suggest some kind of line of leadership. I personally believe in apostolic succession, it is absolutely necessary imo.
The kings were also a line of succession too. "When Israel repelled against David's house; their house fell into caos, and they never had a righteous king; not one. Now most of Israel's tribes is lost. In contrast David's line had several righteous leaders and their people was never lost.
When Israel rebelled against Rehobem they had good reasons. Soloman had been corrupt at the end of his life, and Rehobem responded to them unkindly. They had good reasons, but what happened was they were never able to establish a dynasty at all.
This is one of the reasons I've decided to become Catholic. It just seems to me that you have all these Protestant reformers who were determined that they were going to establish a "purer" church, a church less corrupt than the Catholic church. The one Christ started. However, all the sin that existed in the Catholic Church, exists in the Protestant Church. Their is also the problem of division. Yes, we have divisions within Catholicism, but they are nowhere near the divisions that exists because of the Protestant Reformation. (I mean look how many versions their are of Calvinist Churches, for example.)
The Catholic church leaders were the recognized leaders, which for the first 1500 years people in the West believed were anointed by the Lord. And they could trace their ordination to the apostles. Once these people's authority was questioned, what is really the authority of a pastor, or a denominational leader?
< Message edited by bekalc -- 9/25/2005 5:01:24 PM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 5:21:30 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
Nothing in scripture to suggest this? Have you never read the O.T.? Where is the physical continuity and line of succession of the O.T. church? That's right, nothing. I have read the OT. Thru the Levites.
Can you trace their line of succession?
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 5:29:45 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5696
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Catholicism and Orthodoxy, proclaiming the Truth since 33 AD. Cool
Or possibly proclaiming a lie since the latter part of the 4th Century. Let's leave all available options open please.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 9:26:08 PM
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i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Exactly, so why start another denomination for?
There are no denominations. You either are a christian and in the body of Christ (HIS church) or you are not. All else is the creation on men to try to prove they are the "realest" one.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 9:29:52 PM
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i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
What does this have to do with the topic?
It helps to compare the truth from scripture with the imitation of religion. You will find that a great deal of what the "church" considers essential came late to the party. Then they say believe it because we say we got it from the Apostles.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 9:32:24 PM
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i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Don't bring up the passage in Revelation, because that passage only deal with the one John was writing, not other books.
Cause you say so... just like the "church" says believe us cause we say so.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 9:33:41 PM
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i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Anything that is built over it would be build upon the same foundation or ordained from the same foundation, not another foundation.
This is religion not christian faith.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 9:38:33 PM
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i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
This is off topic.
Nope... you are incorrect. This shows that NT leaders seek the office of an overseer and then are measured against the scriptures. There is only one true church and it does not reside under any man made banner... RCC, EOC, etc.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 9:50:50 PM
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i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Or possibly proclaiming a lie since the latter part of the 4th Century. Let's leave all available options open please.
Thanks
RC
Sad but true.
We build on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone. We do not build on the traditions of men that who claim they got it from an apostle or from the guy the apostle gave it to...
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 9:56:55 PM
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i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
I find it wonderful that you went ahead and posted all these verses that prove the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Church's POV in regards to scriptures.
Except what you give us is not scripture. God gives us "no" assurance that what you pass off as truth is... truth. Especially since you can not agree with each other.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 11:18:39 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
Can you trace their line of succession? There is the lineage from Adam to Noah. From Noah to Abraham. From Abraham to Christ.
And then we also have the lineage of the kings from David to Christ. Also the lineage of the priests, the Levites, and the High Priests which is of Aaron.
And now that Christ has built His foundation, the lineage went to the Apostles. From them, it went to the bishops, and so on, all building on top of Christ's foundation.
Was there a break in the lineage of the Church? I don't think so. You need to show me in scripture where Christ has transfered it to another.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/25/2005 11:23:42 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: i_believe
quote:
Exactly, so why start another denomination for? There are no denominations. Then I encourage you to worship at the nearest local Orthodox Church, since there is no such thing as a denomination. Like you said, either you're a christian or you're not. The Orthodox Church definitely say they are Christians so you shouldn't have a problem with them.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/26/2005 12:15:07 AM
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bekalc
Posts: 214
Joined: 5/3/2005
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The Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church agree far more on points of doctrine than do most Protestant denominations. While their is the issue of the filique (procession of the Holy Spirit) many scholars on both sides are saying its an issue of semantics. (Both sides misunderstanding each other.) The main issue between the two is the issue of authority. The Eastern Orthodox say the pope upsurbed and took too much of it, while Roman Catholics believed that the Eastern Orthodox rebelled against the pope's authority. Although many Eastern Orthodox do believe Rome also departed from the apostolic faith, with some invovations.. (I hope I"m representing both views correctly.)
The two sides probably agree on over 90% doctrine, and our worship is very similar too.
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