|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/23/2005 7:15:37 PM
|
|
|
i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Now back to the Church...it does not claim IT is the Truth - it claims it HOLDS the truth and faithfully preserves it as it was delivered by God himself to the Apostles.
It proclaims now, as it did from the start that if your church deviates from that truth then it is not Apostolic - if it is not Apostolic then it does not hold the full measure of the deposit of truth.
It also claims that it can proclaim truth that does not exist in the scriptures. They call it tradition.
Luk 24:27 Beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he explained to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Joh 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.
Act 17:2-3 Paul, as was his custom, went in to them, and for three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures, (3) explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ."
"reasoned with them from the Scriptures" not from man's traditions.
Act 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
"examining the Scriptures daily" The "church" says the "unlearned" could not use the scriptures in their language so they witheld it. Why?
Act 18:28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews, publicly showing by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
"showing by the Scriptures" not man's traditions
Rom 1:1-5 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the Good News of God, (2) which he promised before through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, (3) concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, (4) who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, (5) through whom we received grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name's sake;
"called to be an apostle, set apart for the Good News of God, which he promised before through his prophets in the holy Scriptures"
Rom 16:25-26 Now to him who is able to establish you according to my Good News and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret through long ages, (26) but now is revealed, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known for obedience of faith to all the nations;
"the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret through long ages, but now is revealed, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God"
Now is revealed... not 50, 100, 1000 years later by man's traditions.
1Co 15:3-5 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, (4) that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, (5) and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve...to me.
"according to the Scriptures"
2Ti 3:14-17 But you remain in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them. (15) From infancy, you have known the holy Scriptures which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus. (16) Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
"From infancy, you have known the holy Scriptures... Scripture is God-breathed and profitable"
The sciptures do not give this same assurance regarding the traditions passed down by men.
How are we taught, reprooved, corrected, instructed in righteousness, made complete and equipped for every good work?
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/23/2005 7:44:05 PM
|
|
|
i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
1Co 11:1-2 Be imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ. (2) Now I praise you, brothers, that you remember me in all things, and hold firm the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.
2Th 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm, and hold the traditions which you were taught by us, whether by word, or by letter.
2Ti 2:2 The things which you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit the same to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.
"as I delivered them to you"
There is no authority given for new traditions that came 50, 100, 1000 years later.
And all we get is "trust us... the Apostles taught us these things."
Peter supported the teaching (by tradition) of things that were not true. But the scriptures stand as the rock of truth against which all other "truth" is measured. It stands alone in this regard.
Gal 2:11-14 But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned. (12) For before some people came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. (13) And the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. (14) But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?
Act 15:24-31 Because we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law,' to whom we gave no commandment; (25) it seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, (26) men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. (27) We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves will also tell you the same things by word of mouth. (28) For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things: (29) that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you. Farewell." (30) So, when they were sent off, they came to Antioch. Having gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. (31) When they had read it, they rejoiced over the encouragement.
By letter and word it was confirmed. Not by word alone. They did not say "trust us, that is what the other apsotles told us to say".
The "church" says to trust that these "essential" teachings were not essential enough to be committed to scripture but are essential to the Christian faith. 
The letters were passed between churches... each a witness to the integrity of the other. Each teaching and correcting "traditions" and other false ideas of men.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/23/2005 7:49:09 PM
|
|
|
i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Tell us why YOUR denomination is the True Church.
I do not have a denomination... never have. I am a Christian according to the Good News of Christ. I welcome any and all people who have believed the Good News of Christ. Now that is the church, the bride of Christ.
"Everything" else is man made... some good, some bad but never "the" church.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/23/2005 7:52:44 PM
|
|
|
i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Attacking the RCC or Orthodox will not get anyone anywhere
Nay, not attacking anyone... only standing on the truth of scripture.
2Ti 4:1-4 I command you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his Kingdom: (2) preach the word; be urgent in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with all patience and teaching. (3) For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; (4) and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/23/2005 10:35:26 PM
|
|
|
sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Nay, not attacking anyone... only standing on the truth of scripture.
Dear i-believe,
No, only standing upon your own interpretation of same.
On the Feast of Pope St. Linus
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/23/2005 10:59:32 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5696
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
Nay, not attacking anyone... only standing on the truth of scripture.
Dear i-believe,
No, only standing upon your own interpretation of same.
On the Feast of Pope St. Linus
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
At least I-believe is standing on his own interpretation of the Holy Scripure and not an interpretation of writings by some johnny-come-lately wanna be apostle.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/23/2005 11:45:46 PM
|
|
|
i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
No, only standing upon your own interpretation of same.
Just as the scripture says...
Rom 14:1-23 Now accept one who is weak in faith, but not for disputes over opinions. (2) One man has faith to eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. (3) Don't let him who eats despise him who doesn't eat. Don't let him who doesn't eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him. (4) Who are you who judge another's servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand. (5) One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. (6) He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn't eat, to the Lord he doesn't eat, and gives God thanks. (7) For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. (8) For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's... (19) So then, let us follow after things which make for peace, and things by which we may build one another up...
(22) Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who doesn't judge himself in that which he approves. (23) But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn't of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 4:29:23 AM
|
|
|
sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
Nay, not attacking anyone... only standing on the truth of scripture.
Dear i-believe,
No, only standing upon your own interpretation of same.
On the Feast of Pope St. Linus
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
At least I-believe is standing on his own interpretation of the Holy Scripure and not an interpretation of writings by some johnny-come-lately wanna be apostle.
Thanks
RC
Dear RC,
Johnny i-believe is coming a lot more lately than the interpretations of those who heard from the Apostles themselves. You're welcome.
On the Feast of St. Berethun
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
P.S. Isn't rcjames a bit of a misnomer? Wouldn't protjames serve you better? No offense intended.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 4:49:56 AM
|
|
|
meep meep
Posts: 89
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: i_believe
quote:
Now back to the Church...it does not claim IT is the Truth - it claims it HOLDS the truth and faithfully preserves it as it was delivered by God himself to the Apostles.
It proclaims now, as it did from the start that if your church deviates from that truth then it is not Apostolic - if it is not Apostolic then it does not hold the full measure of the deposit of truth.
It also claims that it can proclaim truth that does not exist in the scriptures. They call it tradition.
You contradict yourself - if it can proclaim what you call truth that does not exist in scripture - it is still truth - so how can you object to it?
That IS indeed, TRADITION - which is the teaching of Christ - as explained by Paul to Timothy. "Hold fast" to the TRADITIONS, he said. Or is that admonition unscriptural?
Here's a verse:
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. " John 21:25
At the very least, we are advised that what is written by the author is only a part of what Jesus taught and what he did.
These acts were taught and done with the Apostles. The writer HEARD the testimony of the Apostles, and is telling us right there that there is more that is not only NOT contained in the version he is relating but that it is so much that it would it would not be contained in all the books in the world.
So, the Apostles had that information which they relayed to others (as commanded by Jesus), and we know that it is NOT all contained in scripture.
So where is it?
Was it lost?
Is that what God intended?
Or was it entrusted to someone?
Take a look at the first ordination recorded in the NT - Acts-
Who did the ordaining?
Was it the community?
Was it a group of church deacons or elders?
Did the choice fall to each individual?
No - it was an "us" - and that "us" was the eleven remaining Apostles who approved a replacement for Judas and then invoked the Holy Spirit.
Apostolic succession.
Luk 24:27 Beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he explained to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Joh 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.
Very good point - I'm glad you chose this verse. Jesus is who we are to worship, and his teaching, his acts , and his presence are not to be missed because of the misplaced constraint of scripture.
He was telling them they were missing what scripture itself was talking about.
Act 17:2-3 Paul, as was his custom, went in to them, and for three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures, (3) explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ."
"reasoned with them from the Scriptures" not from man's traditions.
How is it you ignore many other parts of Acts (as just one example) which state that Paul was reasoning with them from phiosophies and religions that were not even Jewish (scripture)? Was the "unknown God" that Paul teaches about in Acts from scripture?
But ditto my comment above.
Act 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
"examining the Scriptures daily" The "church" says the "unlearned" could not use the scriptures in their language so they witheld it. Why?
No, that is what YOU say, witout a credible basis, other than what you have been told ( so much for scripture).
But please cite your source - it is an easily refutable [and refuted] myth.
Further, you are confusing two issues. The use of "scripture" which was not correct, with the inability of the illiterate to read scripture.
Where the word could not be read, it was preached and it was illustrated - thus, to a large extent, the centuries of religious art. Go to any ancient church in Europe and you will see the Gospel portrayed in art and the stations of the cross.
You are following too many anti church myths - which I won't address here- because this is the wrong thread.
Why was this group in the verse you cite more noble than Thesalonica? Was it because they read scripture? Perhaps, but notice what Paul says, "they received the word with all readiness of the mind".
Do you remember what happened to Paul in Thesalonica? There were many who certainly were not ready and it nearly cost him his life - thus, he is well pleased with this different response.
...and WHAT word did they receive? The word of TRADITION - that is the teaching of Christ about who he was, his mission and his resurrection - this was not yet reduced to a uniformly accepted scripture.
Act 18:28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews, publicly showing by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
"showing by the Scriptures" not man's traditions
Apollos had already been led to Christ. The point of this verse is that he got the FULL story from Paul (Tradition) and that he then began to effectively minister to the JEWS - something he had not been doing before, because he could not make the connection to the Jews.
TRADITION is the teaching of the Gospel. You keep trying to mix up the "traditions of men" and the Gospel TRADITION- the teaching of Christ, the Deposit of Faith which the church has preserved for almost 2000 years.
Rom 1:1-5 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the Good News of God, (2) which he promised before through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, (3) concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, (4) who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, (5) through whom we received grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name's sake;
"called to be an apostle, set apart for the Good News of God, which he promised before through his prophets in the holy Scriptures"
Rom 16:25-26 Now to him who is able to establish you according to my Good News and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret through long ages, (26) but now is revealed, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known for obedience of faith to all the nations;
"the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret through long ages, but now is revealed, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God"
Now is revealed... not 50, 100, 1000 years later by man's traditions.
Oh good grief!  You miss your own contradictions - LOOK at when this epistle was written, look at the dates - WHEN is "now"? Was it revealed back in the OT or at the crucifixtion, or when the epistle was written - if it is the last then at least 25 years have passed since the revelation at the crucifixtion and the writing - in the meantime, how was the teaching passed on and preserved?
Through the TRADITIONS tught to the Apostles and entrusted to others - the deposit of faith.
1Co 15:3-5 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, (4) that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, (5) and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve...to me.
"according to the Scriptures"
2Ti 3:14-17 But you remain in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them. (15) From infancy, you have known the holy Scriptures which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus. (16) Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
"From infancy, you have known the holy Scriptures... Scripture is God-breathed and profitable"
Let's do some math here:
Jesus was crucified in 33A.D.
Timothy is about 20 or 25;
The epistle you are quoting was written around 67 AD (give or take).
So it is not "scripture" to him...which brings me to my question of many posts ago who decided what in the NT would be scripture?
And if it isn't scripture (or accepted as such yet) and Timothy didn't use it as "scripture" then let's go back to the very first line of the verse you posted:
"But you remain in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them. " Notice it is from WHOM - who is that?
Why Paul, and the Traditions (teaching) he passed down to Tim.
What does Paul admonish him to do?
To stick to it because it is apporved teaching, and to approve others and make sure the right teaching is passed on to them. And what was the reason for this admonition? Because Paul as an Apostle
The sciptures do not give this same assurance regarding the traditions passed down by men.
No, it doesn't you are correct, it gives that assurance about sacred TRADITION - the teaching of Christ deposited and preserved in his Church.
Brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or our epistle" ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:15
How are we taught, reprooved, corrected, instructed in righteousness, made complete and equipped for every good work?
We need to look at all of scripture and what scripture says not at what we want it to say. You parse out what verses you choose and leave others out.
For the record, you have not answered my question about scripture - you have just illustrated what you call "self documenting". So while we may choose to accept scripture as God's word and truth, it will not work on a Muslim or a skeptic ( i.e. not to say God cannot or will not work in his own way should he choose).I'm still waiting for your support of what makes scripture "scripture" what "relevant" source were you citing?
In Christ,
Meep
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 5:03:19 AM
|
|
|
meep meep
Posts: 89
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Attacking the RCC or Orthodox will not get anyone anywhere, because we already know the Orthodox Church is the real Church  . And neither using irrational logic to prove something, like "self documentation".  This thread was meant to prove the real Church. I don't mind people disproving someone, but let's not focus so much on it.
Tell us why YOUR denomination is the True Church. Or prove from scripture why ALL the denominations together (minus the LDS, JW, you know what I mean  ) is the True Church. You would also have to explain how can different denominations disagreeing on major issues can still say we are the True Church or part of the True Church which doesn't make sense.
That Walter, is the question of the hour - and which one of the 20,000 (conservatively speaking) different churches is the one with the correct teaching since they all follow scripture , all believers are lead by the holy Spirit, and they have all revealed the truth now 1600 to 2000 years after the resurrection. Unity?
How scriptural is that?
My vote is with you - it's the Orthodox.
I'm moving to the desert...is Phoenix okay you think?
Meep-adopoulos
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 5:17:08 AM
|
|
|
sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
Nay, not attacking anyone... only standing on the truth of scripture.
Dear i-believe,
No, only standing upon your own interpretation of same.
On the Feast of Pope St. Linus
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
At least I-believe is standing on his own interpretation of the Holy Scripure and not an interpretation of writings by some johnny-come-lately wanna be apostle.
Thanks
RC
Dear RC,
Apostle means "one sent." In light of the Great Commission, we are not just Apostle wannbes, but Apostle calleddabes. So long as there is one lost person on the planet, in light of Ezekiel 33:8, we're Apostle betterbes.
On the Feast of St. Berethun
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 7:23:15 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5696
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear RC,
Apostle means "one sent." In light of the Great Commission, we are not just Apostle wannbes, but Apostle calleddabes. So long as there is one lost person on the planet, in light of Ezekiel 33:8, we're Apostle betterbes...
I like that post sdaw.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 9:03:36 AM
|
|
|
sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear RC,
Apostle means "one sent." In light of the Great Commission, we are not just Apostle wannbes, but Apostle calleddabes. So long as there is one lost person on the planet, in light of Ezekiel 33:8, we're Apostle betterbes...
I like that post sdaw.
Thanks
RC
Dear RC,
I'm glad. It came to me in the middle of the night. Have a nice weekend.
On the Feast of St. Berethun
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 10:07:01 AM
|
|
|
ayani
Posts: 194
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear RC,
Apostle means "one sent." In light of the Great Commission, we are not just Apostle wannbes, but Apostle calleddabes. So long as there is one lost person on the planet, in light of Ezekiel 33:8, we're Apostle betterbes...
I like that post sdaw.
Thanks
RC
Stacey:
I like your post too. I tried to bring it up about five pages ago, but didn't say it as well as you do.
The discussion here has been completely missing this most important meaning of the word 'apostolic' (that you remind us of): that we are all, each believer, meant to be in some way apostles, and that apostolic is what we DO, who we subject ourselves to. It should be an adverb, not a noun, not at title to be inherited by a very few select.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 10:17:54 AM
|
|
|
ayani
Posts: 194
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: meep meep
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Attacking the RCC or Orthodox will not get anyone anywhere, because we already know the Orthodox Church is the real Church . And neither using irrational logic to prove something, like "self documentation". This thread was meant to prove the real Church. I don't mind people disproving someone, but let's not focus so much on it.
Tell us why YOUR denomination is the True Church. Or prove from scripture why ALL the denominations together (minus the LDS, JW, you know what I mean ) is the True Church. You would also have to explain how can different denominations disagreeing on major issues can still say we are the True Church or part of the True Church which doesn't make sense.
That Walter, is the question of the hour - and which one of the 20,000 (conservatively speaking) different churches is the one with the correct teaching since they all follow scripture , all believers are lead by the holy Spirit, and they have all revealed the truth now 1600 to 2000 years after the resurrection. Unity?
How scriptural is that?
My vote is with you - it's the Orthodox.
I'm moving to the desert...is Phoenix okay you think?
Meep-adopoulos
MeepMeep and Walter:
I thought you were both Roman Catholic?????. Are you Roman Catholic, or Orthdox ?. If Orthodox, which Orthodox church?
By the way MeepMeep, before you joined this discussion it was pointed out by someone that those churches claiming 'apostolic succession' hardly have 'unity' amongst themselves either. So, if lack of unity condemns Protestants to being outside the 'true church' it would also condemn the Catholic churches and Orthodox churches. Maybe we need to look beyond organizational unity.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 12:51:31 PM
|
|
|
i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Johnny i-believe is coming a lot more lately than the interpretations of those who heard from the Apostles themselves. You're welcome.
Those who "claim" they heard from and are teaching what Apostles taught.
Why should we believe them? Cause they say so.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 12:53:24 PM
|
|
|
i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
You contradict yourself - if it can proclaim what you call truth that does not exist in scripture - it is still truth - so how can you object to it?
It does not mean that it is true just cause they say it is...
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 1:07:58 PM
|
|
|
i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Take a look at the first ordination recorded in the NT - Acts-
Who did the ordaining?
Was it the community?
Was it a group of church deacons or elders?
Did the choice fall to each individual?
No - it was an "us" - and that "us" was the eleven remaining Apostles who approved a replacement for Judas and then invoked the Holy Spirit.
Apostolic succession.
No. You are mistaken. The Spirit (e.g. the Lord) chose him just like He chose each of the others.
"show which one of these two you have chosen" Not "rubber stamp our choice".
Act 1:24-26 They prayed, and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two you have chosen (25) to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place." (26) They drew lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Chosen by the Lord not selected by man... not appointed as an elder... But "chosen" by the Lord... chosen.
< Message edited by i_believe -- 9/24/2005 1:10:22 PM >
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 1:10:53 PM
|
|
|
i_believe
Posts: 1298
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Why was this group in the verse you cite more noble than Thesalonica? Was it because they read scripture? Perhaps, but notice what Paul says, "they received the word with all readiness of the mind".
Because they were standing on the scripture... prepared by the scripture (the Word)... readiness of mind.
Act 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 3:47:15 PM
|
|
|
meep meep
Posts: 89
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: i_believe
quote:
Take a look at the first ordination recorded in the NT - Acts-
Who did the ordaining?
Was it the community?
Was it a group of church deacons or elders?
Did the choice fall to each individual?
No - it was an "us" - and that "us" was the eleven remaining Apostles who approved a replacement for Judas and then invoked the Holy Spirit.
Apostolic succession.
No. You are mistaken. The Spirit (e.g. the Lord) chose him just like He chose each of the others.
"show which one of these two you have chosen" Not "rubber stamp our choice".
Act 1:24-26 They prayed, and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two you have chosen (25) to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place." (26) They drew lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Chosen by the Lord not selected by man... not appointed as an elder... But "chosen" by the Lord... chosen.
Dear i-
Your are mistaken in your characterization of the ordination described in this particular verse. But you miss the point.
Of course God does the electing- that is the whole point of Apostolic succession - but it is up to those already chosen to witness to, and impose the authority by the laying on of hands.
Just as the Apostles were commissioned by Christ, they commissioned the new Apostle, and those who came later.
Look at Numbers 27:18 - one example of the "laying on of hands" and it's meaning in the Hebrew tradition. It's significance was to confer the person's authority - in this case - the commision - AND - this is seen in the verse giving the Apostles the authority to bind and loose.
Look at Acts 6-3 as well ,and 14:21-23 [why do you think they were ordaining elders? To continue the work Paul had begun]. Look at 1 Tim. 4:14. Tim's gift was actually received by the laying on of hands by Paul - an Apostle; look at Deu. 34A:9; Num 27:18-20.
God is clearly the source/author, nobody has ever said otherwise.
But scripture teaches that ordination and Apostolic succession is not merely seeking God's rubber stamp.
Paul instructed as he was instructed even as he himself was (very dramatically) chosen by God. He preached instructed, approved, and ordained those who came after him - and so it has been for nearly 2 thousand years.
In Christ,
Meep meep
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 3:49:42 PM
|
|
|
meep meep
Posts: 89
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: i_believe
quote:
Why was this group in the verse you cite more noble than Thesalonica? Was it because they read scripture? Perhaps, but notice what Paul says, "they received the word with all readiness of the mind".
Because they were standing on the scripture... prepared by the scripture (the Word)... readiness of mind.
Act 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
So if one cannot read, or doesn't understand a particular language that scripture is written in then one cannot ( or does not have readiness of mind?).
I suggest you read Acts 1 and the phenomenom of the upper room.
Meep.
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 4:30:02 PM
|
|
|
meep meep
Posts: 89
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: i_believe
quote:
You contradict yourself - if it can proclaim what you call truth that does not exist in scripture - it is still truth - so how can you object to it?
It does not mean that it is true just cause they say it is...
No,... YOU called it a truth: " truth that does not exist in scripture". It is either truth or a lie.
Is the Bible true just because it says it is or you say it is?
You have said Apostolicity is a lie because ( according to you ) it is not scripture:
So between the resurrection and the first writing of an epistle what the Apostles preached and proclaimed was untruth - because it was outside of scripture.
And why would a non believer, then, NOT use the very same argument you use against the Catholic church and say that the Bible is "self documenting" and that it was written to prove what they ( the Apostles) wanted to promote?
John says not everything Jesus said and did is in his - or any writing. So if it is outside of scripture is it a lie?
In Christ,
Meep
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 9/24/2005 5:26:31 PM
|
| | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
