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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 3:34:10 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2069
Joined: 9/23/2005
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Gotta say, I much prefer the wall.
In every church where I've led music, the worship always seems much more vibrant and alive when people don't have heads buried in a book.
An earlier poster lamented the lack of SG in worship sets.....I would suggest that much of SG doesn't lend itself to worship. Of course, neither does a lot of contemporary.
Songs and hymns that defy categorization tend to be most useful anda universally accepted for worship....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 3:39:47 PM
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drdlowc
Posts: 21
Joined: 9/6/2008
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As a United Methodist pastor, we don't use the Baptist Hymnal. I'm sure though it is like our hymnal there are some things that are really great another things that are not so great. One example is in the old song At The Cross, they change the word worm to sinner. I also don't like the fact that the songs are titled by the first lines.
I like a mixture of music and so does our choir director for the worship. One sunday you may hear the choir singing for our ministry in music portion of the service a P&W song, a Southern Gospel song or what refer to as high steeple music. I listen to all types of music including country, soft rock, Elvis, but my favorite is Southern Gospel. Part of that is because I want to know what my church folks are listening to as well as the fact that I enjoy good music. If I was not a pastor, I would be in music ministry somewhere.
David
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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 4:36:20 PM
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PaulPate
Posts: 189
Joined: 3/28/2006
From: Branford, Florida
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quote:
Jeremiah 6:16 "Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways ,and see ,and ask for the old paths where [is] the good way..."
ok, 'bout to start preachin...
Preach it brother! I can understand the sentiments, or reasons cited for having pew bibles, and agree with some of them. We just need to educate our people to use their bibles, at home and at church. It always blesses me when my daughter is in church with us to see her with her bible in her lap and a pen and notepad in hand, taking notes. She has done that since she was a teen, and now in her thirties, she has a very good knowledge and understanding of scripture.
_____________________________
One Nation Under God
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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 5:26:45 PM
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Sing2him
Posts: 65
Joined: 3/16/2007
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As far as putting scripture on the wall, I see many more pro's than con's. I agree, some might get lazy with their "literal" bible, but those are people who are probably not using it daily (or at all) anyway. However, it is the "out of the box" ways you can use the projector and screen that makes it a no brainer for me. The different ways to use programs like "Sunday Plus", "Media Shout" and even "Power Point" to make the text and sermon so much more energetic and exciting are countless. You can highlight words, circle and connect groups of words, superimpose greek/hebrew definitions, color code segments of text to show literary composition... and so much more. It can be so much more than just showing the words on a screen. And if you are not using it as such, then it probably is just a convenience factor...and could definitely be eliminated.
As for our congregation singing "off the wall", We strictly use proj. & screen (no hymnals)... our choir leads praise & worship while singing parts, and anyone who would know how to read music is either in the choir or already knows how to hear their part without help. Those who can't read music or hear parts, probably should be singing lead anyway.
_____________________________
http://myspace.com/chriseldridgemusic
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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 5:49:01 PM
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Patrick.Watts
Posts: 2
Joined: 10/13/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
First of all, welcome to the CrossWalk Forums. Hope you enjoy the fellowship here.
Thanks for the welcome!
Since this thread started out on Baptist Hymnal, I thought it important to interject that this book is just a portion of a much larger body of work. Stop here if you think that this sounds like a commercial and are offended. My intent isn't to be a commercial, just to point you in the direction of information.
At lifeway.com/worshipproject, you'll find a list of all the resources in the new LifeWay Worship Project release, which does include Baptist Hymnal and The Worship Hymnal.
The reason I wanted to give this forum the link is because a lot of what is being discussed in the thread was high up on our agenda in the creation of the project. The resources are designed to be used by churches who are sola hymnal, those that are sola parietis, and those that are inbetween. And, as your church changes... whether your musicans change or your physical plant changes, or whatever... the project has resources that will meet the changing needs of your ministry.
--Patrick
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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 6:11:14 PM
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BillBaileyBFAFan
Posts: 341
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pastormiked
I prefer not to use a screen for messages, but wouldn't really have a problem with song lyrics. My opinion is when the scripture is on the screen (if the minister uses scripture, sad to say) it is easy for everyone to see, of course, but I feel it encourages what I call "Biblical Illiteracy". People are being taught not to use their Bibles or even bring their Bibles to church because one is provided for them in some congregations. I think it's important that we keep folks familiar with the Scriptures and that it's ok to underline, highlight, and know where to find the answers they're seeking. God's Word becomes so much more personal this way. What we need in our churches is a Bible Revival:
Jeremiah 6:16 "Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways ,and see ,and ask for the old paths where [is] the good way..."
ok, 'bout to start preachin...
i was thinking the same thing about "contemplative" services. Never heard that one. What ever happened to, uh, preachin' the Word.
I really liked your comment about using an actual Bible versus using words on a screen. A Bible is personal. It's my space. It's private, it'special, its my very own copy of God's word. I have plenty of Bibles, probably a dozen for different reasons, but I have that one special one, that is the one that is "mine"...it's noted for me, its marked up for me, it's worn the way I like it, like an old pair of pants.
And, just to stay on thread, I like the Old Redback. "Victory In Jesus", "Old Rugged Cross", "Farther Along", "At The Cross"...just doesn't get any better than that.
People anymore think to be "praise" music, you have to say the same phrase a dozen times, and sway with your hands up...but to be honest, all you have to do to have praise music, is to praise the one who hung on that old cross, the one in whom we have victory,
Sorry to ramble.
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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 7:53:48 PM
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countrygirls
Posts: 165
Joined: 7/24/2006
From: Coastal area North Carolina
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Patrick.Watts
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
First of all, welcome to the CrossWalk Forums. Hope you enjoy the fellowship here.
Thanks for the welcome!
Since this thread started out on Baptist Hymnal, I thought it important to interject that this book is just a portion of a much larger body of work. Stop here if you think that this sounds like a commercial and are offended. My intent isn't to be a commercial, just to point you in the direction of information.
At lifeway.com/worshipproject, you'll find a list of all the resources in the new LifeWay Worship Project release, which does include Baptist Hymnal and The Worship Hymnal.
The reason I wanted to give this forum the link is because a lot of what is being discussed in the thread was high up on our agenda in the creation of the project. The resources are designed to be used by churches who are sola hymnal, those that are sola parietis, and those that are inbetween. And, as your church changes... whether your musicans change or your physical plant changes, or whatever... the project has resources that will meet the changing needs of your ministry.
--Patrick
It would be sooooo useful to me to see a list of songs that did not make the cut for the 08 hymnal, I looked at the chart of comparison but stopped after discovering a few songs we sing that were there no longer. I talked with someone today that recently purchased the 95 edition rather than 08 because they had heard negative things about the 08 hymnal. Think I will just purchase one for my self and then make a decision. Love this discussion folks, keep it up, great thoughts and ideas!!!
_____________________________
Still Singing and Playing His Praises,
Kathy
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life! John 3:16
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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 8:23:01 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1060
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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Hi Pastormiked and all the rest of you who asked about the "contemplative" service. I haven't been going to this church long enough to explore the three different services and the website description is pretty vague, but here's what it says:
quote:
8:15 AM - This early morning service features a diverse range of musical styles led by our 8@8 worship team. The service is contemplative in nature and Holy Communion is offered weekly.
When I find out more about it, I'll be happy to pass the info along, if you're interested.
quote:
ORIGINAL: pastormiked
Please explain what the "contemplative" service is about. I'm a Southern Baptist Pastor in Alabama and have never heard of this format. As for the Baptist Hymnal, we're still in the 1991 edition which was the most recent until the new one that has just come out this year. We also use a "Songs of Inspiration" maroon hymnal and a blue one (can't remember the name) and both have older convention style songs.
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Your church sounds great. I also think there should be a mix of music. My new church has three separate Sunday morning services - a contemplative, contemporary, and traditional. That forces you to make a decision about what type of music you want.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PaulPate
Not being Southern Baptist, I haven't seen the new Baptist hymnal, but I would like to comment on using hymnals in general. I am another who bemoans the exclusive practice of "singing off the wall". I don't mind that for openong choruses, or praise and worship, but please don't take away my hymnal. At the church I attend and lead the singing, we use two hymnals. On Sunday morning we have a "called choir", where we invite anyone who would like to come to the choir and sing. At this time we use a song book called "Songs We Love To Sing". It is a compilation of convention style songs from the annual books The Church of God (Cleveland) used to put out, and some of the older standard hymns. On Sunday nights we have congregtional singing where we use "The Church Hymnal" otherwise known as "The Redback Hymnal". When we have visitors most of them comment favorably on our use of hymnals. What I fail to understand, is that so many people seem to think it has to be all one way. We do sing some praise and worship choruses. There are instances where they are most appropriate. There also are instances where nothing can suitably replace the choir and/or congregational singing from hymnals where all the parts are utilized. There is no reason that there cannot be a mix of old and new, hymns and choruses, and I believe that they all should be where everyone can participate.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 10:57:36 PM
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nmyrtlebeach
Posts: 66
Joined: 2/26/2007
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Praise and Worship VS. Traditional Music
Early in church history there was conflicting views regarding music. Songs from the church hymnals as we know were new to congregations and many resisted the new style of music, causing disturbances in churches abroad. The issue arose because people did not want to accept change, holding on to their English traditions. Although the music was different in style the message was the same. Today we face another change in music style, but there is a major difference from the early church. Those who enjoy traditional music such as the songs published in the red hymnals have not resisted today’s praise and worship music. However, proponents of praise and worship have in numerous cases completely abolished the practice of utilizing traditional hymns in their programs. Many music seminars teach music leaders to do away completely with traditional music. That attitude is not only selfish but also disrespectful. If today’s congregation resisted Praise and Worship music in the same matter as those who promote it, there would be similar conflicts as there were in the early churches. Everyone is concerned about the church of tomorrow when in fact the church of today is slowly slipping away. If we lose the church of today there will certainly be no church of tomorrow. After the Sept. 11th attacks on America all across the U.S. folks were singing such songs as “Amazing Grace” and “How Great Thou Art”; how could we ever consider abandoning those types of songs from our music programs? It is the opinion of this writer that all songs of faith are a form of praise and worship.
Have a balance and everyone leaves happy and the church grows.
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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 11:06:26 PM
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dbmurray
Posts: 402
Joined: 2/27/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
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The last time we purchased new hymnals, we chose The Celebration Hymnal over the 1991 Baptist Hymnal. We'd been using the 1975 BH previously. I haven't got a copy of the 2008 edition of the BH yet, but I like the list of song titles. Looks like they kept the cream of the crop, while adding some good new songs.
Remember that 1975 edition? That's the one with "God Of Earth And Outer Space." What in the world were they thinking???
_____________________________
David Bruce Murray
http://www.musicscribe.com
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RE: hymnal - 10/13/2008 11:28:33 PM
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CountryPreacher
Posts: 151
Joined: 10/29/2006
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I like what I'm reading. Brother, let 'er rip.
quote:
ORIGINAL: pastormiked
I prefer not to use a screen for messages, but wouldn't really have a problem with song lyrics. My opinion is when the scripture is on the screen (if the minister uses scripture, sad to say) it is easy for everyone to see, of course, but I feel it encourages what I call "Biblical Illiteracy". People are being taught not to use their Bibles or even bring their Bibles to church because one is provided for them in some congregations. I think it's important that we keep folks familiar with the Scriptures and that it's ok to underline, highlight, and know where to find the answers they're seeking. God's Word becomes so much more personal this way. What we need in our churches is a Bible Revival:
Jeremiah 6:16 "Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways ,and see ,and ask for the old paths where [is] the good way..."
ok, 'bout to start preachin...
_____________________________
"It's Still the Blood"
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RE: hymnal - 10/14/2008 6:53:10 AM
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Dinana
Posts: 10493
Joined: 3/28/2006
From: Kennesaw, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dbmurray
The last time we purchased new hymnals, we chose The Celebration Hymnal over the 1991 Baptist Hymnal. We'd been using the 1975 BH previously. I haven't got a copy of the 2008 edition of the BH yet, but I like the list of song titles. Looks like they kept the cream of the crop, while adding some good new songs.
Remember that 1975 edition? That's the one with "God Of Earth And Outer Space." What in the world were they thinking???
My previous church actually sang that a couple of times - it was all I could do not to laugh!! But I guess it made sense (sort of) during the early space exploration days!
_____________________________
www.myspace.com/dianaspages
www.youtube.com/DinanaSN
www.sgconcerts.com
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RE: hymnal - 10/14/2008 9:13:33 AM
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Sing2him
Posts: 65
Joined: 3/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nmyrtlebeach
Praise and Worship VS. Traditional Music...
...Many music seminars teach music leaders to do away completely with traditional music. That attitude is not only selfish but also disrespectful....
Actually, there is a huge movement within even the most progressive segments of P & W to not only embrace the hymns of old (everybody and their brothers are cuting "hymn" albums), but to also incorperate the old hymns in the songs that they write (ie. "how great is our god". "Nothing but the blood", "Oh the wonderful cross", etc). These are the most contemporary of worship bands clinging to the traditional. If they are doing it, that is a pretty good borometer of what the "middle of the road" is doing.
As a post-modern progressive pastor who has been a part of countless "church growth" seminars and worship clinics, I can assure you that any worship trainer/teacher that does not promote a blending of styles and a balance of old/new will not be in business very long. Most would never teach that (no matter what their personal prefference may be). That is stylistic suicide for a church and everyone knows it. Now, worship leaders (on a local level) may let their personal prefference get in the way and they could move one direction or the other (which should be squelched by the pastor quickly), but I dare say that, for the most part, even the most progressive of seminars are doing the exact opposite of what you posted.
_____________________________
http://myspace.com/chriseldridgemusic
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RE: hymnal - 10/14/2008 10:16:07 AM
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S-Llama
Posts: 60
Joined: 11/1/2006
Status: offline
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I think the worst song I ever encountered in a hymanal was a song called: From Greeland's Icy Mountains....
It never got sung!
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RE: hymnal - 10/14/2008 10:46:26 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1353
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sing2him
quote:
ORIGINAL: nmyrtlebeach
Praise and Worship VS. Traditional Music...
...Many music seminars teach music leaders to do away completely with traditional music. That attitude is not only selfish but also disrespectful....
Actually, there is a huge movement within even the most progressive segments of P & W to not only embrace the hymns of old (everybody and their brothers are cuting "hymn" albums), but to also incorperate the old hymns in the songs that they write (ie. "how great is our god". "Nothing but the blood", "Oh the wonderful cross", etc). These are the most contemporary of worship bands clinging to the traditional. If they are doing it, that is a pretty good borometer of what the "middle of the road" is doing.
and, then there are songwriters/singers like Keith & Kristyn Getty....who are "modern day" hymn writers.....they write NEW songs...but, they are "hymns", not contemporary P&W.....(Iam sure there are others out there doing the same thing)
they've been to our church a few times....and our 10 year old daughter, in particular, loves them!
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: hymnal - 10/14/2008 9:41:12 PM
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L5Ropeholder
Posts: 573
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BillBaileyBFAFan
And, just to stay on thread, I like the Old Redback. "Victory In Jesus", "Old Rugged Cross", "Farther Along", "At The Cross"...just doesn't get any better than that.
People anymore think to be "praise" music, you have to say the same phrase a dozen times, and sway with your hands up...but to be honest, all you have to do to have praise music, is to praise the one who hung on that old cross, the one in whom we have victory,
Sorry to ramble.
Amen!!! I always wanted to compile my own Hymnal.
What really bothers me is the folks that think they have the right to change the words to old hymns. I clean a Lutheran Church now for several years now and they just got new "rack books" I refuse to call them hymnals, there are some hymns, but mostly Lutheran ritual stuff. I picked one up and stopped at a song called God of the Nations, well, it was God of Our Fathers all reworded. It still makes my blood boil to think about it, I even thought of cutting that page out of them all!!!!! After I get done, might just be the cover left!  I believe the Methodist Hymnal is doing the same thing. I still have the 1938 Cokesbury, and the Organist here in town still plays from it, it has all my favorites.
That big "glass church" (you all know what that is) seems to have started alot of this, at least when I first noticed.
So
_____________________________
We don't have to agree.
You have the right to be wrong if you want to. -Dr. Adrian Rogers
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RE: hymnal - 10/16/2008 1:08:32 AM
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Anamchara
Posts: 98
Joined: 9/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeeAnnBailey
quote:
ORIGINAL: jchaz
Saw the 'new' hymnal in LifeWay the other day. Wasn't too impressed.
We use the old "redback" Church of God "Church Hymnal"... except ours are actually GREEN! Always thought it was funny we called 'em "redback". They were actually MAROON!
We also have the older "brown" version of the "Baptist Hymnal", but I don't care for it too much.
We're planning on getting a projector & screen for preservice announcements, and maybe sermon points, but I don't think I'll be using it regularly for song lyrics. I just don't like NBOT having people singing harmony! I might use it a little for a special chorus from time to time, but not routinely. I might even do some video segments to enhance a choir special, but again, that won't happen too much, either. I certainly think that these can easily be overdone, and I've always believed 'less is more' when it comes to that sort of thing.
I love that 'redback' hymnal!!!! Man it has great songs!
Ditto me too, I was raised on it. 26 years later, I still love it. :)
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RE: hymnal - 10/16/2008 3:43:05 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1919
Status: offline
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quote:
and, then there are songwriters/singers like Keith & Kristyn Getty....who are "modern day" hymn writers.....they write NEW songs...but, they are "hymns", not contemporary P&W.....(Iam sure there are others out there doing the same thing)
they've been to our church a few times....and our 10 year old daughter, in particular, loves them!
Amen! Yes, it is wonderful to see and hear new hymnwriters, like the Getty's, doing this work for the Lord. Speak, O Lord is my personal favorite and a prayer song I sing almost daily to the Lord. I've also taught it and used it at the women's group I meet with but it is probably not suitable for congregational singing IMO.
Those of us who love harmony love hymnals. 
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RE: hymnal - 10/21/2008 1:56:25 PM
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yustme
Posts: 378
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline
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Got two questions,
#1....What's the difference between a Baptist hymnal,Methodist Hymnal,Nazarene hymnal,etc,etc?
#2....If so many people don't like the "wall" thing,why don't people speak up!
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RE: hymnal - 10/21/2008 8:01:48 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1919
Status: offline
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quote:
Got two questions,
#1....What's the difference between a Baptist hymnal,Methodist Hymnal,Nazarene hymnal,etc,etc?
#2....If so many people don't like the "wall" thing,why don't people speak up!
I would say the difference is the quality and beauty of the hymns they contain. One reason I could never have become a Baptist was because of the hymnal. The same for the Lutheran church---the hymns were anything but beautiful. I grew up in the Evangelical Reformed and the hymns were beautiful---both the words and the melodies. The Methodist church had a similar beauty.
Most people don't speak up because they aren't passionate enough about Jesus and the traditional church does not welcome true believers.
Those are my thoughts.
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RE: hymnal - 10/23/2008 1:52:23 PM
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yustme
Posts: 378
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Got two questions,
#1....What's the difference between a Baptist hymnal,Methodist Hymnal,Nazarene hymnal,etc,etc?
#2....If so many people don't like the "wall" thing,why don't people speak up!
I would say the difference is the quality and beauty of the hymns they contain. One reason I could never have become a Baptist was because of the hymnal. The same for the Lutheran church---the hymns were anything but beautiful. I grew up in the Evangelical Reformed and the hymns were beautiful---both the words and the melodies. The Methodist church had a similar beauty.
Most people don't speak up because they aren't passionate enough about Jesus and the traditional church does not welcome true believers.
Those are my thoughts.
What do you mean by "the traditional church does not welcome true believers"?
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RE: hymnal - 10/23/2008 3:47:20 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1060
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Yeah, I'm curious about that statement too.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Got two questions,
#1....What's the difference between a Baptist hymnal,Methodist Hymnal,Nazarene hymnal,etc,etc?
#2....If so many people don't like the "wall" thing,why don't people speak up!
I would say the difference is the quality and beauty of the hymns they contain. One reason I could never have become a Baptist was because of the hymnal. The same for the Lutheran church---the hymns were anything but beautiful. I grew up in the Evangelical Reformed and the hymns were beautiful---both the words and the melodies. The Methodist church had a similar beauty.
Most people don't speak up because they aren't passionate enough about Jesus and the traditional church does not welcome true believers.
Those are my thoughts.
What do you mean by "the traditional church does not welcome true believers"?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: hymnal - 10/23/2008 8:12:20 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1919
Status: offline
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quote:
What do you mean by "the traditional church does not welcome true believers"?
The question was regarding why people don't speak up when words are displayed on walls rather than using a hymnal. There is alot of 'talk' in all churches but most of the 'talk' is fleshly and it can't be anything but because most of the church is of the flesh. I am not talking about the true church here (obviously) but most of what you see in the traditional church is not the true church, born again, Spirit filled believers. Instead you find religious people in the traditional church.
And born again, Spirit filled believers who love Jesus are not understood or heard by those who are carnally minded. So the fleshly religious ones argue about how to 'do church'. And the true church sits back and worships quietly---many times apart from the traditional church.
Old wineskins cannot hold new wine. That's what I'm saying.
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RE: hymnal - 10/24/2008 9:03:04 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
What do you mean by "the traditional church does not welcome true believers"?
The question was regarding why people don't speak up when words are displayed on walls rather than using a hymnal. There is alot of 'talk' in all churches but most of the 'talk' is fleshly and it can't be anything but because most of the church is of the flesh. I am not talking about the true church here (obviously) but most of what you see in the traditional church is not the true church, born again, Spirit filled believers. Instead you find religious people in the traditional church.
And born again, Spirit filled believers who love Jesus are not understood or heard by those who are carnally minded. So the fleshly religious ones argue about how to 'do church'. And the true church sits back and worships quietly---many times apart from the traditional church.
Old wineskins cannot hold new wine. That's what I'm saying.
That is a very well put and thought provoking post!
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RE: hymnal - 10/24/2008 9:57:11 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1060
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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I'm still unsure about your definition of the "traditional church" and whatever this other church is you are referring to. By traditional churches, do you mean Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, etc? If so, what is your "real" or "true" church? I'm still confused. I think I understand part of what you are saying and agree in large part, but yet........
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
What do you mean by "the traditional church does not welcome true believers"?
The question was regarding why people don't speak up when words are displayed on walls rather than using a hymnal. There is alot of 'talk' in all churches but most of the 'talk' is fleshly and it can't be anything but because most of the church is of the flesh. I am not talking about the true church here (obviously) but most of what you see in the traditional church is not the true church, born again, Spirit filled believers. Instead you find religious people in the traditional church.
And born again, Spirit filled believers who love Jesus are not understood or heard by those who are carnally minded. So the fleshly religious ones argue about how to 'do church'. And the true church sits back and worships quietly---many times apart from the traditional church.
Old wineskins cannot hold new wine. That's what I'm saying.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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