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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 2:11:52 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
And what will we do after we kill 10,000 Syrians? Pat ourselves on the back for a job well done ignoring the wider ME war we've just started?
Gee, doesn't Syria share a border with Iraq? I wonder what the ramifications would be to the troops on the ground there for us teaching those nasty Syrians a lesson with a few airplanes that aren't being used?
Your plan lacks a whole lot of details as does every plan with the shoot first, ask questions later mindset!
I don't think we need to kill anyone - I think if we just clearly said, "Move away from the border or suffer the consequences" the generally skittish Syrians would do so. If they failed to comply, a few bombs dropped near them should convince them to do so. Of course, if they fail to act at that point, they have no one to blame but themselves.
And if Russia steps in? What then? You still haven't addressed the wider ramifications of such an action, cowboy! Syria also has mobile SAM launchers as well as their fixed sites. A few planes might get shot down during such an action. What then? Bring in the tactical nukes?
The skittish Syrians are these the same guys that took 15 years to get out of Lebanon the last time?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 2:24:39 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 833
Joined: 8/30/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
And what will we do after we kill 10,000 Syrians? Pat ourselves on the back for a job well done ignoring the wider ME war we've just started?
Gee, doesn't Syria share a border with Iraq? I wonder what the ramifications would be to the troops on the ground there for us teaching those nasty Syrians a lesson with a few airplanes that aren't being used?
Your plan lacks a whole lot of details as does every plan with the shoot first, ask questions later mindset!
I don't think we need to kill anyone - I think if we just clearly said, "Move away from the border or suffer the consequences" the generally skittish Syrians would do so. If they failed to comply, a few bombs dropped near them should convince them to do so. Of course, if they fail to act at that point, they have no one to blame but themselves.
And if Russia steps in? What then? You still haven't addressed the wider ramifications of such an action, cowboy! Syria also has mobile SAM launchers as well as their fixed sites. A few planes might get shot down during such an action. What then? Bring in the tactical nukes?
The skittish Syrians are these the same guys that took 15 years to get out of Lebanon the last time?
Yea and we fired missles at their anti-aircraft SAM sites in the 80s, I was there and a part of it with the Beirut peace keeping force.
History has shown, we are allowed to push little snot nose dictator countries around like that for the good of the world. You read history right?
In this case I didn't have to because i was a part of it.
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 2:42:48 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Mr. Cheney: If that's all we got, then the Israeli's should do that. US intervention will only serve to revive recruiting for Islamic terrorist groups (just as Iraq is finally seeing less terrorist activity).
I don't have a problem with the Israeli's 'doing that'; though in all fairness it will be difficult for the fleeing Syrian troops to identify exactly where the falling bombs are coming from.
A bombing campaign won't be kept secret long, LOL. And, we still have our hands full in Iraq and Afghanistan. Regardless of which candidate wins, I doubt there will be much public support for another military campaign in the Middle East.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 2:52:21 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1229
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quote:
I was there and a part of it with the Beirut peace keeping force.
Hold it!
Were you there in that region? Can you tell more or give a link ? Its different when one reads and when one is inside where the action is going on for real!
Lord forgive my curiosity for details! 
I do come from peaceful nation have no idea at all about military action, none my family military went to war..oh my Grandpa he did went to Italy but saw no actions as he did not mentioned a single thing, at all.
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 2:55:25 PM
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phreddy
Posts: 278
Joined: 3/28/2007
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We would definitely use bunker busters before tactical nukes.
Seriously though, a few bombers could vere off course from a mission Iraq and make sure the Syrians respected the bordeers.
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 3:21:28 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1229
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quote:
Not much to tell.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/usmnf.htm
And I believe it was one of our aircraft ( from Independence) that got shot down due to some chaff or flare problem on the plane.
The marine barracks that McCaine talked about last night is mentioned on there.
Thanks very much!
Yes, He did mentioned that!
It was around the same time of US Emabassy bombing? I remember the magazines pictures about that...I sure don't have all my facts straight and etc learning as I do not like wars realities etc.. but I enjoy to known the strategy and other details of it..I find fascinated somethings that does not involve hurting etc Hope I am "normal" by finding fascinating military and history and stories etc. 
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 5:20:29 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7785
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
And if Russia steps in? What then? You still haven't addressed the wider ramifications of such an action, cowboy! Syria also has mobile SAM launchers as well as their fixed sites. A few planes might get shot down during such an action. What then? Bring in the tactical nukes?
If they work as 'well' as the Iraqi anti-aircraft equipment, I wouldn't be too worried.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 11:03:51 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
Yea and we fired missles at their anti-aircraft SAM sites in the 80s, I was there and a part of it with the Beirut peace keeping force.
History has shown, we are allowed to push little snot nose dictator countries around like that for the good of the world. You read history right?
In this case I didn't have to because i was a part of it.
First, thank you for your service to this country! Secondly, I am sorry about the hundreds of brave marines that died in 1983! Unfortunately, their deaths didn't make a difference in Lebanon. Two years later the country was embroiled in their long and tragic civil war which culminated in it being occupied by Syria for 15 years!
As far as snot nosed dictators, our CIA has a long and bloody history of installing them. The Shah of Iran, Mobutu Seso Seko (Zaire), Guatemala, creating Panama so we could have our canal, etc., etc. See, I do read history, even the not so pleasant parts!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 11:06:56 PM
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cog41
Posts: 622
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
And what will we do after we kill 10,000 Syrians? Pat ourselves on the back for a job well done ignoring the wider ME war we've just started?
Gee, doesn't Syria share a border with Iraq? I wonder what the ramifications would be to the troops on the ground there for us teaching those nasty Syrians a lesson with a few airplanes that aren't being used?
Your plan lacks a whole lot of details as does every plan with the shoot first, ask questions later mindset!
I don't think we need to kill anyone - I think if we just clearly said, "Move away from the border or suffer the consequences" the generally skittish Syrians would do so. If they failed to comply, a few bombs dropped near them should convince them to do so. Of course, if they fail to act at that point, they have no one to blame but themselves.
And if Russia steps in? What then? You still haven't addressed the wider ramifications of such an action, cowboy! Syria also has mobile SAM launchers as well as their fixed sites. A few planes might get shot down during such an action. What then? Bring in the tactical nukes?
The skittish Syrians are these the same guys that took 15 years to get out of Lebanon the last time?
Neither we or the Israelis ever bombed the Syrians even a 10th of how we bombed Afghan or Iraq. If that had occured, The Syrians would have left Lebanon long before. If it occurs this time I bet the syrians would back off.
I believe the postering is in the event of an Obama victory. If Obama wins, I suspect the Israelis will bomb Iraq nuke sites before the Jan oath of office.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 11:14:29 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
And if Russia steps in? What then? You still haven't addressed the wider ramifications of such an action, cowboy! Syria also has mobile SAM launchers as well as their fixed sites. A few planes might get shot down during such an action. What then? Bring in the tactical nukes?
If they work as 'well' as the Iraqi anti-aircraft equipment, I wouldn't be too worried.
OK we bomb them with nary a scratch and then .......? Very simplistic plan! No contingencies. Very GWB-like. No thought for the repercussions of such a move.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/8/2008 11:25:26 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cog41
Neither we or the Israelis ever bombed the Syrians even a 10th of how we bombed Afghan or Iraq. If that had occured, The Syrians would have left Lebanon long before. If it occurs this time I bet the syrians would back off.
I believe the postering is in the event of an Obama victory. If Obama wins, I suspect the Israelis will bomb Iraq nuke sites before the Jan oath of office.
Fine. That's their prerogotive. Then they can deal with the mess they created. If we (or Israel) do bomb them like you fantasize about, Russia will definitely become involved. Syria is still in Russia's sphere of influence.
Or what do you think is going to happen? That they'll say they're sorry and remove the troops from the border? "Sorry America, O saintly, unblemished country; we will be good Syrians from now on!" 
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 9:20:23 AM
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galadriel2
Posts: 293
Joined: 6/5/2008
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Thanks so much, AdrianaS, for pointing out the former gift of $400 million. That does then bring up the question of why now with this gift.
Mapachito, your point about how we chopped up the Mid-east after our wars there and how we still feel the repercussions of such bad diplomacy - a very good point!
As another point which one of the posts reminded me of, I read this last year a book by Michael Scheuer. He is a former CIA who for years was assigned to UBL in Asia. I have read all his books and in his last one 'Marching toward Hell' he brings up some interesting points about the 'war on terror'. Did you know that there are a lot of terrorist training camps scattered throughout countries in the Mid-east and Africa that our country knows full well about and they don't do anything about it? Dr. Scheuer's point is why don't we bomb them and then you'll get someone like ummm....I forget his first name...his last name is Senor and he was over in Iraq at the start of the war and now he is on Fox News from time to time and you say something about what Dr. Scheuer brings up and then Fox News brings on Senor and he talks about and infers how people like Dr. Scheuer know nothing about 'diplomacy'. Honestly. Anyway, um...right...harsh talk isn't really a good idea. Sen. McCain was talking about in the debate - soft talk, big stick. I think soft talk - wise talk - would be good. The only problem is that our country and our leaders for the most part have rejected Christ and His word and 'the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom' - or - also as this verse teaches is that wisdom consists primarily in and of fearing God.
God bless all abundantly,
Galadriel
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 9:42:03 AM
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galadriel2
Posts: 293
Joined: 6/5/2008
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I mean, I don't know a lot about diplomacy and stuff like that - but what is wrong with once in a while giving the Arabs what they want - I mean an Arab beside the Saudis whose oil we are a slave to and so our continual purchase of it funds the extreme Wahabi Islam that they are propogating all over the world - and a country that is #1 on the persecution of Christians list  . When James Madison set up the Constitution and the structure of our government, when you read about his defence and explanations of why he designed it the way he did in The Federalist Papers, you will find that he based his reasoning on the Biblical doctrine of the 'total depravity of man' - right out of Romans chapter 3. He takes the greed of man and the subsequent oppression of his fellow man when they can't defend themselves as a given that only God Himself can correct. Madison's goal was to deal with the effects of greed (factions as he calls the manifestation of it) rather than the cause. It seems to me that creating some sort of 'balance of power' thing in the Mid-east where the ambitions of one group counter-balance the ambitions of another and so unlawful aggression is kept in check - it seems to me that this is the way to go. I think someone very meek (objective) and wise should try and accomplish this if possible.
Another issue is that the Mid-east is such a religious group of people, but our elite disdains religion - accept in appearance only when it gets them votes or support for their cause. You can discuss political issues very easily from the wording of the Prophets and the Apostles and perhaps we would all get along better with the Mid-east if our leaders were humble enough and loving enough to stoop to the Mid-east on this issue and speak in terms of the Prophets, etc.. Not that we compromise Christian doctrine (which our leaders do deliberately).
God bless,
Galadriel
< Message edited by galadriel2 -- 10/9/2008 3:37:50 PM >
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 9:45:44 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10951
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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Galadriel, I am not a diplomat either, so in that light I ask; What would you "give" the Arabs to appease them?
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 9:48:13 AM
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galadriel2
Posts: 293
Joined: 6/5/2008
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Ok...this is really controversial...What about the Golan Heights?
Thanks for your question Stamper.
God bless,
Galadriel
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 9:58:30 AM
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phreddy
Posts: 278
Joined: 3/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Galadriel, I am not a diplomat either, so in that light I ask; What would you "give" the Arabs to appease them?
The problem is that many won't be happy until the whole world converts to Islam.
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 10:16:54 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10951
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
Ok...this is really controversial...What about the Golan Heights?
Thanks for your question Stamper.
God bless,
Galadriel
The Golan Heights would basically make Israel open to greater rocket attack than current.
But say it happens. And then what will they be given? Remember, you did say "what is wrong with once in a while giving the Arabs what they want." What's next and would they ever be appeased?
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 10:21:33 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
Thanks so much, AdrianaS, for pointing out the former gift of $400 million. That does then bring up the question of why now with this gift.
Mapachito, your point about how we chopped up the Mid-east after our wars there and how we still feel the repercussions of such bad diplomacy - a very good point!
As another point which one of the posts reminded me of, I read this last year a book by Michael Scheuer. He is a former CIA who for years was assigned to UBL in Asia. I have read all his books and in his last one 'Marching toward Hell' he brings up some interesting points about the 'war on terror'. Did you know that there are a lot of terrorist training camps scattered throughout countries in the Mid-east and Africa that our country knows full well about and they don't do anything about it? Dr. Scheuer's point is why don't we bomb them and then you'll get someone like ummm....I forget his first name...his last name is Senor and he was over in Iraq at the start of the war and now he is on Fox News from time to time and you say something about what Dr. Scheuer brings up and then Fox News brings on Senor and he talks about and infers how people like Dr. Scheuer know nothing about 'diplomacy'. Honestly. Anyway, um...right...harsh talk isn't really a good idea. Sen. McCain was talking about in the debate - soft talk, big stick. I think soft talk - wise talk - would be good. The only problem is that our country and our leaders for the most part have rejected Christ and His word and 'the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom' - or - also as this verse teaches is that wisdom consists primarily in and of fearing God.
God bless all abundantly,
Galadriel
I am reading a similar book entitled "Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA" by Tim Weiner who has pored over recently de-classified (2003) CIA documents to show us the dirty side of American diplomacy. It's interesting and infuriating reading. But neo-cons love this policy of nation building by whatever means necessary even if it means checking our morals at the door! America has no morally righteous leg to stand upon! It is time our government walks the talk and govern according to the principles they espouse!
I believe in the ideals of America, but not in its current reality! But my weapon is my vote in my new American revolution!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 10:33:10 AM
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galadriel2
Posts: 293
Joined: 6/5/2008
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Thanks again, so much, for the responses.
Stamper...I know. Is it then that we give them something else in addition? Look what has happened in Gaza. I hear that most Palestinians are so opposed to the violence, but then you hear the opposite as well - that they are cranking out terrorists and suicide bombers beginning with brainwashing pre-schoolers. Gaza, from our very limited perspective in America, is totally cut off and isolated - from jobs, sane governance. I mean - maybe we should just let them move to Egypt if they want to. I don't know.
Thanks Mapachito, for the response. I have come across a very few people from our 'intelligence' community. They are the most lawless, ruthless, and corrupt people I have ever encountered in my life. I understand government's role is to punish 'evil-doers', but it seems to me that to be able to do that effectively you can't be one yourself. It is difficult to beat the devil at his own game. You might win a few battles, but you will lose the war.
God bless abundantly,
Galadriel
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 12:05:56 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1229
Joined: 3/21/2007
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Thanks Galadriel also..as thanks Mapachito..and thanks everybody else for sharing..and books, books books mentioning! Going to check those..
Keep sharing what you know.. I'm learning.
What I did learn bit about a book revew although I'm not into biographies at al..and is about a great man of plain commosense and inspiring leadership, George Washington's gift of spotting important as quotidian tasks also..and the seriousness of the importance of sanitation for the troops...wow the War of Independence was a war of sanitation also, because of the need of latrines and enforcement of building and maitaining it for 20.000 men troop etc (Richard Brookhiser book)
Oh people, the plain commom sense of a great leader that has his eyes in everything! I like George Washington style.
Ok...I went away from the topic but still regarding troops... 
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 2:06:51 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 833
Joined: 8/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
I understand government's role is to punish 'evil-doers', but it seems to me that to be able to do that effectively you can't be one yourself.
God bless abundantly,
Galadriel
I think your understanding is skewed, maybe a government class or a study of our preamble might help you get back on track...
1 - A government should work to better itself
2 - It should provide a system of justice and rule of law
3 - Insure domestic tranquility
4 - Provide a common defense
5 - Promote the general welfare of the society
6 - Secure our liberties
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 2:40:31 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
I understand government's role is to punish 'evil-doers', but it seems to me that to be able to do that effectively you can't be one yourself.
God bless abundantly,
Galadriel
I think your understanding is skewed, maybe a government class or a study of our preamble might help you get back on track...
1 - A government should work to better itself
2 - It should provide a system of justice and rule of law
3 - Insure domestic tranquility
4 - Provide a common defense
5 - Promote the general welfare of the society
6 - Secure our liberties
FYI, Galadrial was referring to Romans 13 not the Preamble to the Constitution.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Syria Massing Troops on Lebanon border - 10/9/2008 3:11:37 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 833
Joined: 8/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
I understand government's role is to punish 'evil-doers', but it seems to me that to be able to do that effectively you can't be one yourself.
God bless abundantly,
Galadriel
I think your understanding is skewed, maybe a government class or a study of our preamble might help you get back on track...
1 - A government should work to better itself
2 - It should provide a system of justice and rule of law
3 - Insure domestic tranquility
4 - Provide a common defense
5 - Promote the general welfare of the society
6 - Secure our liberties
FYI, Galadrial was referring to Romans 13 not the Preamble to the Constitution.
That's still not right then, the Bible does not say that the goverment's role is to punish evil doers, nor does it infer it. Paul was providing a possible specific consequence as it relates to the overall role of the government to prevent or restrain evil. There can be no punishment without the breaking of a law.
So to say that is like saying that the purpose of God's law is to punish evil doers.
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, the world continues to rotate. Syria is reportedly massing troops on the Lebanon border and an invasion may be on the horizon. Perhaps they are taking a page from the Putin playbook. 