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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 8:00:43 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
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ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
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ORIGINAL: GroupW
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ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I think a tube may be able to carry a baby to viability with both living, since an ovary has.
Just FYI - there's difference between an ovarian ectopic pregnancy and a tubal pregnancy. There have been cases of near-viable babies in ectopic pregnancies where the placenta was able to attach abdominally. In such cases, you wouldn't get the life threatening rupture since the pregnancy is carried outside the tubes.
In a tubal pregnancy - there's only two natural outcomes. Either the fetus is spontaneously aborted on its own without treatment or the tube ruptures.
Um, ectopic is ectopic. Like I said before, they will attach where they can find a blood supply...even in an ectopic position. I said I think that a tube can support a baby to viability if an ovary has. I do know the differences. This is what I study. :) And babies have been "born" viable even when not attached where they were supposed to be.
But, Solo aren't those cases few and far between? Isn't it the case that in MOST cases, a tubal results in either both the mother and baby dying, or if there is medical intervention, then in just the baby dying? That's what our church has always taught, and our church IS very pro-life, but they considers tubals the one exception. And my dad is the pastor, and he does have a pre-med degree.
I didn't say they were abundant. :) But, I have no clue how many would have lived had they not been terminated either. I have a feeling that if some of those women (where baby/mother lived) knew early enough they would have terminated as well.
My point is that an abortion is an abortion, is it not? If a baby is taken out while it's alive, is it not still an abortion? Maybe one thinks they had good reasoning behind it, but why is it an abortion in every other case, but if the life of the mother is under too much "risk," it's not an abortion anymore? Or is it just a justified abortion?
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 8:36:00 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
My point is that an abortion is an abortion, is it not? If a baby is taken out while it's alive, is it not still an abortion?
It's abortion if a baby is taken out of the WOMB in order to prevent the natural progression to childbirth, it's abortion. It's, IMO, unfair to place an unnatural event into the same category as someone desiring to terminate an economically or socially inconvenient pregancy.
I recently saw a medical program about a woman in a poor country that had an ectopic pregnancy in her abdomen some 30 years before. Since there was no way for the child to be born without surgery, her body eventually transformed and absorbed the baby into a huge mass with identifiable bones & shapes. Modern surgery eventually removed it.
By your lose and legalistic definition, the woman's own body essentially performed an abortion.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 8:37:13 AM
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Memaw.
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Solo,
It's because the word has such negative connotation to it.
I have had 4 miscarriages, but in the medical world, they were spontaneous abortions. Does that word offend me in that usage? No, because I know what it means.
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Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or it's gone
and gone for a long, long time."
Ronald Reagan
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 9:52:46 AM
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solo_soprano22
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Okay. I don't see it that way, but I guess it's the way you think about it, or how you want to define abortion. I know the word has a negative connotation, but does have a medical definition (denotation)... connotations aside. <shrugs>
Jim, I think the medical world is trying to move away from calling miscarriages abortions, but if a baby is aborted, it can be done so by the body, or by a person who's actively trying to abort it.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:11:55 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Just FYI - there's difference between an ovarian ectopic pregnancy and a tubal pregnancy...
Just FYI:
An ectopic pregnancy is a complication of pregnancy in which the fertilized ovum is implanted in any tissue other than the uterine wall. Most ectopic pregnancies occur in the Fallopian tube (so-called tubal pregnancies), but implantation can also occur in the cervix, ovaries, and abdomen. The fetus produces enzymes that allow it to implant in varied types of tissues, and thus an embryo implanted elsewhere than the uterus can cause great tissue damage in its efforts to reach a sufficient supply of blood.
LINK for more Info
That's what I was trying to say more or less - I think Solo was confusing the viability of a fetus in an ectopic pregnancy (which has it's own grave risk factors) with a tubal pregnancy (which is also grave, but fundamentally different in potential outcomes). A child might, perchance, survive an ectopic pregnancy on the odd case, but the child does not survive a tubal pregnancy.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:23:15 AM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
My point is that an abortion is an abortion, is it not? If a baby is taken out while it's alive, is it not still an abortion?
It's abortion if a baby is taken out of the WOMB in order to prevent the natural progression to childbirth, it's abortion. It's, IMO, unfair to place an unnatural event into the same category as someone desiring to terminate an economically or socially inconvenient pregancy.
I recently saw a medical program about a woman in a poor country that had an ectopic pregnancy in her abdomen some 30 years before. Since there was no way for the child to be born without surgery, her body eventually transformed and absorbed the baby into a huge mass with identifiable bones & shapes. Modern surgery eventually removed it.
By your lose and legalistic definition, the woman's own body essentially performed an abortion.
There was an Indian guy not too long ago that had to have a dead twin removed from his abdomen.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:26:49 AM
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stellaluna
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I actually worked with a guy who had to have his twin removed from his abdomen. There are many many many things that can go wrong during a pregnancy.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:33:37 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Yeah, I think people are actually misunderstanding me (some ppl, not everyone). 
I think I've said twice that if an ovary can carry a baby to viability, I believe that a tube can as well. I haven't heard of a tubal baby (live/viable), but I have heard of an ovarian baby (live/viable). I'm not saying it's factual; I'm saying it's my opinion based on other cases. Maybe that clears it up?
Maybe I'm being dense, but for me it doesn't clear things up at all. I'd be afraid someone with strong pro life feelings reads things like this and is tempted not to seek medical treatment for a condition that as far as I can tell only ends two ways. Fallopian tubes aren't made to stretch to the degree required.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:37:29 AM
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phosadaud
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I could be wrong here, but my understanding (and least within the last few years) is that there have only been 2 documented cases of an ectopic pregnancy where the baby survived and both were attached to the abdominal wall. I don't have time to look it up right now though - I'll try to remember when I get home tonight or maybe someone has some sources they can cite.
I am very much anti-abortion, but I cannot in good conscience tell a woman that she should die for a child that really has no hope outside of direct intervention from God of surviving. That doesn't seem pro-life to me. I mean, who's life is it protecting? To me that is like the Pharisees not giving aid to a dying man because it was the Sabbath and that would be work. It's placing the law above the heart of the law.
Thare are more cases than that. :)
Do you have any statistics or anything. I can't find anything but rates for ectopic pregnancy occurring as well as death rates and medical issues following this. The closest I've come is one statistic which stated the chances of a baby surviving an ectopic pregnancy was one in 60 million. In addition, I can't find any of babies born alive that were implanted in the fallopian tube which accounts for 95% of ectopic pregnancies from the statistics that I've seen. The only cases I've seen where a baby was born alive (I'm up to 3 now - one occured last spring in Australia) were all abdominal ectopics and the articles I've read indicate there is a difference between an implantation in the fallopian tube verses the abdominal cavity because a fallopian tube is not able to accommodate the growing baby - but the abdominal cavity may be able to.
I also found a sad statistic that worldwide, ectopic pregnancy is the number one cause of maternal death.
My question above got missed so I'm posting it again.
And following up on Groups post - I cannot find a single example of a baby surviving a tubal so I think it is extremely dangerous to even hint that a baby could survive in that circumstance.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:41:21 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Yeah, I think people are actually misunderstanding me (some ppl, not everyone).
I think I've said twice that if an ovary can carry a baby to viability, I believe that a tube can as well. I haven't heard of a tubal baby (live/viable), but I have heard of an ovarian baby (live/viable). I'm not saying it's factual; I'm saying it's my opinion based on other cases. Maybe that clears it up?
Maybe I'm being dense, but for me it doesn't clear things up at all. I'd be afraid someone with strong pro life feelings reads things like this and is tempted not to seek medical treatment for a condition that as far as I can tell only ends two ways. Fallopian tubes aren't made to stretch to the degree required.
Well, that's up to the person. Like I said, if an ovary can hold a baby, I'm of the opinion that a tube can as well. An ovary wasn't made to stretch like that either, but it has before, and the baby was carried full-term (neither died).
If the risk is too high for the woman/couple, or if something goes wrong (that's how many women discover they have a tubal), they can always terminate due to risk. They can make their own decisions based on a lot of things and their convictions.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:43:41 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I could be wrong here, but my understanding (and least within the last few years) is that there have only been 2 documented cases of an ectopic pregnancy where the baby survived and both were attached to the abdominal wall. I don't have time to look it up right now though - I'll try to remember when I get home tonight or maybe someone has some sources they can cite.
I am very much anti-abortion, but I cannot in good conscience tell a woman that she should die for a child that really has no hope outside of direct intervention from God of surviving. That doesn't seem pro-life to me. I mean, who's life is it protecting? To me that is like the Pharisees not giving aid to a dying man because it was the Sabbath and that would be work. It's placing the law above the heart of the law.
Thare are more cases than that. :)
Do you have any statistics or anything. I can't find anything but rates for ectopic pregnancy occurring as well as death rates and medical issues following this. The closest I've come is one statistic which stated the chances of a baby surviving an ectopic pregnancy was one in 60 million. In addition, I can't find any of babies born alive that were implanted in the fallopian tube which accounts for 95% of ectopic pregnancies from the statistics that I've seen. The only cases I've seen where a baby was born alive (I'm up to 3 now - one occured last spring in Australia) were all abdominal ectopics and the articles I've read indicate there is a difference between an implantation in the fallopian tube verses the abdominal cavity because a fallopian tube is not able to accommodate the growing baby - but the abdominal cavity may be able to.
I also found a sad statistic that worldwide, ectopic pregnancy is the number one cause of maternal death.
My question above got missed so I'm posting it again.
And following up on Groups post - I cannot find a single example of a baby surviving a tubal so I think it is extremely dangerous to even hint that a baby could survive in that circumstance.
I said it was my opinion based on the ability of an ovary to hold a baby. You don't have to agree.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:43:44 AM
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GroupW
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Phosy-
Based on an earlier search, I could find a couple of articles that indicated anywhere from 5% to up to 25% of abdominal pregnancies could be carried to viability (not carried to term, though). Didn't read the articles themselves, though. That's for abdominal only and does not include other types of ectopic pregnancies where the outcomes are far less favorable.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:46:10 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I said it was my opinion based on the ability of an ovary to hold a baby. You don't have to agree.
Phosy is right - it's still dangerous to say. You never know who's going to read some of this. If you were an experienced gynocologist, I'd cut you some slack here.
Edit: I could be wrong, but in an ectopic pregnancy where the fetus attaches at the ovary, isn't the baby actually carried in the abdomen? In such a case, a comparison between viability of an ovarian pregnancy and a tubal pregnancy would be completely wrong. Like comparing one's ability to stuff a sock into an eggshell or a swimming pool.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:52:49 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
There was an Indian guy not too long ago that had to have a dead twin removed from his abdomen.
That was about the grossest news program I ever watched in my entire life. Thanks for the reminder. I'm going to be mostly wierded out the rest of the day.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 10:56:18 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
People don't have to agree with anyone else's opinion. I hope that people form their own opinions, and I strive for that in science (because it's important to be able to do so-- not just go with someone else's for no good reason).
Agree or disagree. We're not all the same people with the same opinions. I'm not attempting to get anyone else to agree with my opions, btw. :)
Opinions are fine. I've got no problem with opinions. Opinions that can cost lives though bother me greatly. I think there are some opinions that can do tremendous damage. Sometimes we have responsibilities to either hold our opinions back or research them before we put them out for general consumption.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 11:15:22 AM
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stellaluna
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I surely hope no one would take an opinion on an internet message board over the medical advice of their doctor--or over their personal convictions either.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 11:17:49 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I surely hope no one would take an opinion on an internet message board over the medical advice of their doctor--or over their personal convictions either.
Yeah, me too. It would be likely only if someone were already on the fence and looking for a reason to do something that they already had leanings toward. Still, stranger things have happened. You just never know how your words are going to be used.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 12:44:26 PM
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Memaw.
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quote:
Well, that's up to the person. Like I said, if an ovary can hold a baby, I'm of the opinion that a tube can as well. An ovary wasn't made to stretch like that either, but it has before, and the baby was carried full-term (neither died).
Maybe I am confused.
The placenta did not attach to the inside of the ovary did it?
_____________________________
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or it's gone
and gone for a long, long time."
Ronald Reagan
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 3:40:44 PM
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phosadaud
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I could be wrong here, but my understanding (and least within the last few years) is that there have only been 2 documented cases of an ectopic pregnancy where the baby survived and both were attached to the abdominal wall. I don't have time to look it up right now though - I'll try to remember when I get home tonight or maybe someone has some sources they can cite.
Thare are more cases than that. :)
I said it was my opinion based on the ability of an ovary to hold a baby. You don't have to agree.
I actually was asking for some stats & numbers for babies who were born alive after ectopic pregnancies to which you responded there are more cases than that. That's what I was wanted a reference for. I can't find anything aside from now - 3 examples of this happening and all were abdominal - not fallopian.
My concern is this. We know in history that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after 4 days. Therefore, we know it is possible. However, I do not believe we should make decisions based on this fact. The same is true is ectopic pregnancies. God could do just about anything in regard to a baby growing outside the womb, but that doesn't mean we make a decision in care based on that. That's why I want to see numbers to see what is realistic. I don't want to see women sitting in parking lots of hospitals waiting for an ectopic to rupture and HOPEFULLY they will survive that and not have all kinds of nasty complications that are common with that because they think that maybe, just maybe, there is hope that the baby won't die because they saw online someone claiming knowledge in this area saying that babies CAN survive ectopic pregnancies. KWIM?
And, I would also like info on an ovary holding a baby. Did the baby actually develop inside the ovary or was it attached to the outside of the ovary?
I'm not asking for sources to be contrary, but this is how I learn and if I'm missing something, I want to see evidence so I can re-evaluate my views. I don't re-evaluate my understanding of something simply because some person I've never met before tells me something. I'm a bit of a science geek so I like to see studies, numbers, etc so I can evaluate for myself what is being said.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 4:07:58 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
I do too...I think that I'm of the same opinion...that if I had an ectopic pregnancy, I'd likely not know it until it burst...and if I did know I'd probably just wait for it to terminate on its own. Then I wouldn't have to live with the fact that I'd knowingly ended the baby's life, even though if the baby had implanted in the tube he/she would not have survived.
So, if you did know it was ectopic, you would wait for your tube to burst and you would quite possibly bleed to death? Even if there was no chance of saving the baby, you'd would choose possible death over an abortion, thereby leaving your children motherless and your husband a widow?
Because my children and husband are more important to me than my own moral reprehension over abortion. I would pay the price of a lifetime of guilt, because my children and husband are worth that much.
I'm not trying to attack you, Kim, but I really do feel that strongly about it. An abortion would rip my heart in two, but I would rather choose that, then leave my children without their mother and my husband without his wife.
I know you're not trying to attack me...and I also know that you're anti-abortion.
Well...geographically speaking we live about 30 seconds from our local hospital, so if we needed to get there quickly we could. The actual death rate here in the US from a ruptured ectopic pregnancy is 1 in 2000. So about 40-50 women each year die from not getting to the hospital fast enough or not knowing why they're bleeding profusely.
Of course my husband and my two daughters are more important to me than words can describe. But I couldn't in good conscience terminate a pregnancy, even if that baby weren't going to make it anyway. I liken it to women who are told that their babies will die shortly after childbirth from medical complications. I wouldn't abort a baby in that situation either. It's not for me to say when an innocent life should end. To some that may sound naive but to me it is the logical conclusion of my pro-life/anti-aboriton stance.
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