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RE: Evolved? - 10/8/2008 11:58:56 AM
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KaseyTom
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Intelligence resulted from the creation of the universe, not the other way around.
Without the context of an already existing universe, intelligence has no meaning. There is no definition of intelligence that does not require the existence of time and space.
That does not mean there isn't a parallel paradigm from which the universe was created, or an entity which used that paradigm to cause the existence of the universe, but the nature of such an entity and paradigm would be beyond our capability to image.
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RE: Evolved? - 10/8/2008 12:01:35 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Intelligence resulted from the creation of the universe, not the other way around.
Without the context of an already existing universe, intelligence has no meaning. There is no definition of intelligence that does not require the existence of time and space.
That does not mean there isn't a parallel paradigm from which the universe was created, or an entity which used that paradigm to cause the existence of the universe, but the nature of such an entity and paradigm would be beyond our capability to image and unlikely to involve itself with talking snakes.
How do you define intelligence?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Evolved? - 10/8/2008 12:07:43 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Intelligence resulted from the creation of the universe, not the other way around.
Without the context of an already existing universe, intelligence has no meaning. There is no definition of intelligence that does not require the existence of time and space.
That does not mean there isn't a parallel paradigm from which the universe was created, or an entity which used that paradigm to cause the existence of the universe, but the nature of such an entity and paradigm would be beyond our capability to image and unlikely to involve itself with talking snakes.
How do you define intelligence?
I could quote all the definitions of intelligence I can find on the web, as the term intelligence has different meanings in different contexts, but you are capable of looking them up yourself. Find me one that does not require the existence of time and space.
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RE: Evolved? - 10/8/2008 12:56:57 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Find me one that does not require the existence of time and space. Here are seven that show intelligence requires no limitation of time or space!
Job 12:13 - To God belong wisdom and power; counsel and understanding are his.
Jeremiah 10:12 - But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
Daniel 2:20 - Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are His.
Romans 11:33 - Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
1 Corinthians 1:25 - For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Ephesians 3:10 - His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,
James 1:5 - If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Evolved? - 10/8/2008 1:06:57 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Find me one that does not require the existence of time and space. Here are seven that show intelligence requires no limitation of time or space!
Job 12:13 - To God belong wisdom and power; counsel and understanding are his.
Jeremiah 10:12 - But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
Daniel 2:20 - Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are His.
Romans 11:33 - Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
1 Corinthians 1:25 - For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Ephesians 3:10 - His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,
James 1:5 - If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
These are bible quotes describing the nature of God, not definitions of intelligence. Words have meaning.
ID proponents claim ID to be a scientific theory. You are doing them a disservice.
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RE: Evolved? - 10/8/2008 1:16:21 PM
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drmark
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You are doing them a disservice. The intelligence of God does not require time or space. You do the major disservice to science, KT, by your constant denial and rejection of anything outside your materialistic religion!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Evolved? - 10/8/2008 2:27:11 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
You are doing them a disservice. The intelligence of God does not require time or space. You do the major disservice to science, KT, by your constant denial and rejection of anything outside your materialistic religion!
Find me one living Nobel prize winner in the natural sciences of one member of the National Academy of Sciences that would agree my arguments are doing them a disservice.
BTW: "wisdom", "power", "stretched out", "depth", "unsearchable", and "for ever and ever" all imply the existence of time and/or space.
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RE: Evolved? - 10/9/2008 11:12:09 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 218
Joined: 7/20/2006
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I posted this video because looking at it from the veiwpoint of a mechanic (ASE certified Master mechanic since 1984), I can spot a machine when I see it. A cell is a machine. An amazing, self regulating, self repairing machine of incredible complexity. A cell is a machine that I don't believe we would be able to even begin to replicate for many years to come. To believe that it somehow appeared by happenstance is insane.
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RE: Evolved? - 10/9/2008 12:37:49 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 396
Joined: 8/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
I posted this video because looking at it from the veiwpoint of a mechanic (ASE certified Master mechanic since 1984), I can spot a machine when I see it. A cell is a machine. An amazing, self regulating, self repairing machine of incredible complexity. A cell is a machine that I don't believe we would be able to even begin to replicate for many years to come. To believe that it somehow appeared by happenstance is insane.
Any living organism can be explained the same way.
A lliving organism is a machine. An amazing, self-regulating, self-repairing machine of incredible complexity. A living organism is a machine that I don't believe we would be able to replicate for many years to come.
That is life. But it does not disprove nor challenge the theory of evolution.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Evolved? - 10/9/2008 2:02:29 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
I posted this video because looking at it from the viewpoint of a mechanic (ASE certified Master mechanic since 1984), I can spot a machine when I see it. A cell is a machine. An amazing, self regulating, self repairing machine of incredible complexity. A cell is a machine that I don't believe we would be able to even begin to replicate for many years to come. To believe that it somehow appeared by happenstance is insane.
Is the sun a machine? A self sustaining fusion engine that provides the energy that drives earths processes and allows life to exist?
Life is life. Machines are machines. Life is unique from machines in a variety of ways. We have no trouble distinguishing machines from life. Machines required human intelligence. Life requires vast amounts of time and evolutionary processes to develope.
If humans needed a machine to make milk, they wouldn't build a cow or anything like it even if they could.
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RE: Evolved? - 10/9/2008 2:14:23 PM
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DanJames
Posts: 681
Joined: 12/13/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
I posted this video because looking at it from the viewpoint of a mechanic (ASE certified Master mechanic since 1984), I can spot a machine when I see it. A cell is a machine. An amazing, self regulating, self repairing machine of incredible complexity. A cell is a machine that I don't believe we would be able to even begin to replicate for many years to come. To believe that it somehow appeared by happenstance is insane.
Is the sun a machine? A self sustaining fusion engine that provides the energy that drives earths processes and allows life to exist?
Life is life. Machines are machines. Life is unique from machines in a variety of ways. We have no trouble distinguishing machines from life. Machines required human intelligence. Life requires vast amounts of time and evolutionary processes to develope.
If humans needed a machine to make milk, they wouldn't build a cow or anything like it even if they could.
Life cannot be distinguished from machines, except to say that a machine typically does one function, and life does many functions. Life, then can be said to be a number of machines. They may not be too impressive floating around in the cytosol, but proteins and enzymes do functions as they interact with each other and information storing nucleic acids. They move around on little chemical "conveyer belts" and construct scaffolding and transport food-stuffs through doors with which they interact. These are machines. Life cannot be described, nor exist without the use of machines.
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RE: Evolved? - 10/9/2008 3:14:20 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
I posted this video because looking at it from the viewpoint of a mechanic (ASE certified Master mechanic since 1984), I can spot a machine when I see it. A cell is a machine. An amazing, self regulating, self repairing machine of incredible complexity. A cell is a machine that I don't believe we would be able to even begin to replicate for many years to come. To believe that it somehow appeared by happenstance is insane.
Is the sun a machine? A self sustaining fusion engine that provides the energy that drives earths processes and allows life to exist?
Life is life. Machines are machines. Life is unique from machines in a variety of ways. We have no trouble distinguishing machines from life. Machines required human intelligence. Life requires vast amounts of time and evolutionary processes to develope.
If humans needed a machine to make milk, they wouldn't build a cow or anything like it even if they could.
Life cannot be distinguished from machines, except to say that a machine typically does one function, and life does many functions. Life, then can be said to be a number of machines. They may not be too impressive floating around in the cytosol, but proteins and enzymes do functions as they interact with each other and information storing nucleic acids. They move around on little chemical "conveyer belts" and construct scaffolding and transport food-stuffs through doors with which they interact. These are machines. Life cannot be described, nor exist without the use of machines.
Funny, I've never had any trouble identifying what is alive and what is not. Machines are, by definition, not alive.
Life is, by definition, not machines. Words have meaning. If you need to personally redefine the terms to make your argument, then you have no argument.
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RE: Evolved? - 10/12/2008 11:44:26 PM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 90
Joined: 6/6/2008
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Can intelligence exist independent of time and space? Is it, 'i am (physical) therefore i think?' or 'i think, therefore i am'. Science may be at the door of discovering the human soul according to a book i just finished entitled 'God, The Evidence,' by 'Patrick Glynn.' Some of which contains accounts of people being clinically dead in the operating room and brought back to life. The person on the operating table being able to recall with exact detail events in the operating room from a fixed position above their body, near the ceiling. One man was able to describe his heart and what the Doctor was doing to it etc. It's a short read, 169 pages, well written and well documented. If anyone is interested, give it a shot.
The only reason i mention this is because Ess. said something to the effect he did not know of intelligence existing outside of cells? If e=mc2 is an example of thought then e=mc2 existed before Einstein discovered it independent of time and space. (somewhere?) Just what exactly is thought anyway?
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