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[Poll]
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What role should the Church play in the Election?
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| Churches should be allowed to tell Congregants who to vote for. |
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| Churches should not be allowed to tell Congregants who to vote for. |
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| Undecided |
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Total Votes : 38
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(last vote on : 10/17/2008 11:10:50 AM)
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/8/2008 8:29:46 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3370
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
So are you saying Pastors "should not" advocate who to vote for in the pulpit or are you saying as long as it doesn't go against who you'd vote for it's o.k..
I am saying in my opinion that a pastor who believes in the things that Obama believes in, is an extremely non-biblical pastor, one I would not allow to be my spiritual authority.
quote:
"If you don't vote for so and so you are going to hell or you're un-Christian"
I would also leave this church.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/8/2008 8:38:21 AM
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Bas
Posts: 271
Joined: 4/15/2006
From: Washington, DC
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quote:
Preaching how we as Christians should vote in the House of God is wrong.
I disagree. Politics effect Christians just as much as non-Christians. Why should pastors ignore a huge area of life that has significant impact on their flock?
quote:
The Apostle’s didn’t get invovled with politic’s either.
The Roman's didn't hold elections.
However one could argue John the Baptist got involved with 'politics' to the extent he was able.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/8/2008 8:43:13 AM
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Bas
Posts: 271
Joined: 4/15/2006
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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And why should everyone in American society be allowed to openly express their politic opinions EXCEPT pastors?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/8/2008 8:45:37 AM
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perichoretic
Posts: 93
Joined: 10/1/2008
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quote:
I am saying in my opinion that a pastor who believes in the things that Obama believes in, is an extremely non-biblical pastor, one I would not allow to be my spiritual authority.
Well, as a pastor who supports Obama our doors are still open to even you, soninme.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/8/2008 10:24:10 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
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quote:
Churches that endorse a candidate publicly should have their tax exempt status revoked whether they are backing the Reps or the Dems or the Greens, for that matter!
Every other fool in the US thinks they have a valid opinion when it comes to elections. Why discriminate against fools in the clergy?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/8/2008 11:39:00 AM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 349
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bas
And why should everyone in American society be allowed to openly express their politic opinions EXCEPT pastors?
Pastors do have a right to express their political opinions, but it is not in their job description to do so as a spiritual shepard of people.
The job of a pastor to change the hearts of individuals so that they will act, live , think, and even vote as they feel God directing them.
If pastors wanted to get political they should stop being spiritual shepards and get totally into the secular world of politics.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/8/2008 11:58:18 AM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 450
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bas
The Roman's didn't hold elections.
However one could argue John the Baptist got involved with 'politics' to the extent he was able.
Just because the Romans didn't hold elections doesn't mean they couldn't speak out against the atrocities the Romans were committing.
Funny that you would bring up John the Baptist considering he spoke out against Herod for marrying his brother's wife thus committing adultery. It seems to run parallel to the fact John McCain dumped his first wife, who became handicap and is now in what one would consider an adulterous marriage.
< Message edited by campbe33 -- 10/8/2008 6:45:10 PM >
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/8/2008 12:09:13 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bas
And why should everyone in American society be allowed to openly express their politic opinions EXCEPT pastors?
Actually, that's not true. My company's CEO cannot stand up at a staff meeting and advise us how to vote. He can point out legislation that may affect our business and whether candidates have taken positions on specific issues. Our company has clear guidelines about "solicitation" at work and political activity is included. Therefore I am not free to express my opinion when I am working. Same for pastors.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/8/2008 7:14:32 PM
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Bas
Posts: 271
Joined: 4/15/2006
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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quote:
If pastors wanted to get political they should stop being spiritual shepards and get totally into the secular world of politics.
I am not a gnostic who believes in some division between the physical and spiritual worlds, that they have nothing to do with each other.
Spiritual and religious beliefs inform the worldviews of the whole life of a whole person, including in their day to day life in society, which involves the political.
Spiritual issues do come up in political debate, and there is no good reason pastors shouldn't be able to address those.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/8/2008 7:22:22 PM
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Bas
Posts: 271
Joined: 4/15/2006
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bas
And why should everyone in American society be allowed to openly express their politic opinions EXCEPT pastors?
Actually, that's not true. My company's CEO cannot stand up at a staff meeting and advise us how to vote. He can point out legislation that may affect our business and whether candidates have taken positions on specific issues. Our company has clear guidelines about "solicitation" at work and political activity is included. Therefore I am not free to express my opinion when I am working. Same for pastors.
Of course that is your particular company's policy, but ( bolded part of your post) there you go. Expressing opinions on legislation is political. And by inference even sends an opinion on who is proposing the legislation, doesn't it? So even with your policy, you are not free from expressing political opinion.
More to the real point; there are many (if not most) associations which proclaim to their employees a candidate they are officially endorsing. How is it an association can, but a church can't?
And to the lady above: Should the head of an association who proclaims a political opinion be forced out of their job and into full-time politics? No. That is ridiculous notion. Likewise for the pastor.
< Message edited by Bas -- 10/8/2008 7:43:29 PM >
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/9/2008 9:14:24 AM
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Rocker452
Posts: 1
Joined: 6/8/2006
From: Longview, Tx
Status: offline
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It's my view that pastors shouldn't endorse any candidate from the pulpit. However they can preach on candidates stand on issues. Christians need to be involved in the political process if this country is to turn back to God. This country was founded on Godly principles but people have perverted the separation of church and state statement into something that the founding fathers never intended.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/10/2008 11:46:47 PM
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Shrommer
Posts: 98
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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It is my opinion that churches should be legally allowed to tell people who to vote for, and as far as I know, churches are already allowed to tell people who to vote for if they are a tax-paying church that renders unto Caesar what is Caesar's and sees paying taxes as a civic good.
The problems are:
(1)
Even though it is legal, it is not a good idea. Christians have as many different political opinions as secular people do, and Christians have as many different political opinions as we have different tastes in foods. In the body of Christ, we want to be known for our love and unity, and that is what Jesus prayed for us. If we start telling people what kinds of foods to eat or who to vote for, we are alienating our brothers and sisters in Christ, and making the church into a club which promotes uniformity in contrast to unity.
(2)
Taxes often are used for things like funding Planned Parenthood, which most Christians disapprove of. At the same time, churches want to have resources to spend on the Kingdom of God whereby God gets the glory, not the government or the local church.
(3)
People involved in churches are free to also be involved in political parties and political campaigns, so there is no need to do this work at the church. If the goal is to get involved in politics, there is nothing about going to church which stops anyone from getting involved in politics outside of church.
(4)
Many simple-minded people will vote the way their religious leaders tell them to, and lose the capacity to follow the Holy Spirit and use the mind God gave them.
(5)
There are good arguments for saying that groups should not be paying taxes as groups, whether they are businesses, political organizations, churches, or families. We may be better off having only individuals pay taxes, and make every "group" a tax exempt group.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/10/2008 11:54:25 PM
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Shrommer
Posts: 98
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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For my point (5) above, there are also good arguments why this doesn't work. For instance, it is easy to entangle group expenses with personal expenses, so that your lifestyle is based on untaxed group revenue, while your individual revenue is very low.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/10/2008 11:56:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bas
And why should everyone in American society be allowed to openly express their politic opinions EXCEPT pastors?
Actually, that's not true. My company's CEO cannot stand up at a staff meeting and advise us how to vote. He can point out legislation that may affect our business and whether candidates have taken positions on specific issues. Our company has clear guidelines about "solicitation" at work and political activity is included. Therefore I am not free to express my opinion when I am working. Same for pastors.
You are not to express your where you work... I can where I work... Is there a verse that says pastors are to stifle themselves on this issue?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/10/2008 11:59:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bas
And why should everyone in American society be allowed to openly express their politic opinions EXCEPT pastors?
Pastors do have a right to express their political opinions, but it is not in their job description to do so as a spiritual shepard of people.
The job of a pastor to change the hearts of individuals so that they will act, live , think, and even vote as they feel God directing them.
If pastors wanted to get political they should stop being spiritual shepards and get totally into the secular world of politics.
The problem with this is that you have people voting for things that conflict with what the Pastor teaches... What says the shepard's oversight stops at politics? In fact many people on this forum go so far as to say God's oversight stop at politics... What is this based on?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/11/2008 12:01:39 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1964
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
First, John_O: You da man! You nailed it dead on.
No he didn't. The church has adopted a legalistic, pharrisaical attitude towards sin in our culture, choosing to rant and rave over the symptoms such as "gay marriage," "abortion," and to a lesser extent "easy divorce" rather than addressing the underlying heart conditions.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/11/2008 12:04:59 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Shrommer
The problems are:
(1)
Even though it is legal, it is not a good idea. Christians have as many different political opinions as secular people do, and Christians have as many different political opinions as we have different tastes in foods.
The problem here is Christians having as many different political (evil)opinions as secular people do, not Pastors endorsing whomever...
quote:
In the body of Christ, we want to be known for our love and unity, and that is what Jesus prayed for us. If we start telling people what kinds of foods to eat or who to vote for, we are alienating our brothers and sisters in Christ, and making the church into a club which promotes uniformity in contrast to unity.
A house divided will not stand...
quote:
(4)
Many simple-minded people will vote the way their religious leaders tell them to, and lose the capacity to follow the Holy Spirit and use the mind God gave them.
Put they should listen to the same pastor on other issues?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/11/2008 12:06:15 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
First, John_O: You da man! You nailed it dead on.
No he didn't. The church has adopted a legalistic, pharrisaical attitude towards sin in our culture, choosing to rant and rave over the symptoms such as "gay marriage," "abortion," and to a lesser extent "easy divorce" rather than addressing the underlying heart conditions.
-Dan.
Thanks for making my point...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/11/2008 11:44:56 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1808
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: online
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The main role of the church should be to encourage everyone to pray for our Nation, Our Leaders, and for the Holy Spirit to guide us all in making the right decisions.
If we as Christian's pray like we need to I think a lot of other issues would take care of themselves.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/11/2008 11:52:37 AM
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LivingParadox
Posts: 819
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
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I have no problem with pastors supporting a candidate but do not believe this should happen in their formal role in the church. Pastors are citizens too. Stand up for godly values, teach your flock how to discern and let them use the tools they've been equipted to decide, encourage congregants to do their civic duty and vote -- that's what the church's role is in voting.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/11/2008 12:41:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
I have no problem with pastors supporting a candidate but do not believe this should happen in their formal role in the church. Pastors are citizens too. Stand up for godly values, teach your flock how to discern and let them use the tools they've been equipted to decide, encourage congregants to do their civic duty and vote -- that's what the church's role is in voting.
Based on what?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/16/2008 3:41:04 PM
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JJB1222
Posts: 227
Joined: 7/16/2008
From: where the mountains meet the sea, Puget Sound.
Status: offline
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I don't think anyone should tell anyone else how to vote. We should all educate ourselves and then decide. The only role the Church needs to have to is to pray like mad for the country as a whole.
_____________________________
~ Jamie ~
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/16/2008 5:17:33 PM
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writerchick
Posts: 184
Joined: 10/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
But unfortunately it is not applied equally.
Election after election, Black churches have had Democrat candidates in the pulpit on Sundays "preaching" their campaign, yet those churches have not lost their 501c3 status.
Where's your proof of this?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/16/2008 5:26:00 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7785
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Where's your proof of this?
A few examples:
Obama
Clinton
Kerry
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/16/2008 5:45:10 PM
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writerchick
Posts: 184
Joined: 10/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Where's your proof of this?
A few examples:
Obama
Clinton
Kerry
Whatever. Did you even listen to Obama's speech? It was very uplifting. And as I recall, he didn't once say, "vote for me." Clinton's speech was on a Thursday night. That's not a normal church service which is the issue here. Who knows what Kerry was doing. The reporter sounds pretty biased and there's no way to know what he said.
All three of these examples are not in any way evidence of a widespread problem in black churches. It's also pretty racist to make such a suggestion when 33 pastors from 22 states got together to extol McCain's virtues during their Sunday morning sermon. But no one seems to be upset when the white folks willfully pull this kind of stunt. I wonder why that is.
Pastors Supporting McCain
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