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[Poll]
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What role should the Church play in the Election?
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| Churches should be allowed to tell Congregants who to vote for. |
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| Churches should not be allowed to tell Congregants who to vote for. |
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| Undecided |
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Total Votes : 38
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(last vote on : 10/17/2008 11:10:50 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/5/2008 4:42:59 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2200
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
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quote:
Well shucks, how about that white Churches get the same ability to instruct their congregation on how to vote as the black Chruches?
I mean is not that what equality is all about?
I prefer neither but I have no problem with what you said RC. If they can't or refuse to enforce it across the board they should do away with it. I simply don't like the idea of the church being used as some kind of political platform to the point it is an extension of someone's campaign which is exactly what happens in some of the inner city black churches.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/5/2008 4:54:47 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1744
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
which is exactly what happens in some of the inner city black churches.
Please understand that I ask this out of pure curiosity, but how do you know that for sure?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/5/2008 5:11:23 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1017
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
which is exactly what happens in some of the inner city black churches.
Please understand that I ask this out of pure curiosity, but how do you know that for sure?
Such campaigning has been well documented in the main stream media as far back as I can remember.
Gore in 2000 - NYT
Kerry in 2004 - Wash Post
How many examples do you want? We can get dozens from the Clinton years.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/5/2008 9:10:37 PM
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draexo
Posts: 505
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
It is a pastor's duty to inform his flock if one of the candidates is not suitable for a Christian to vote for.
If the candidate is pro abortion, pro normalization of homosexual behavior, etc, then that pastor had better be telling his congregants not to vote for him.
We are not to be unequally yoked. How can we yoke ourselves to a person for 4 years if they are practing anti-biblical behaviors?
Based on this logic, our options are extremely limited. In most elections we would have to abstain!
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/5/2008 9:42:19 PM
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JustaChristian
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/20/2005
Status: offline
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Nothing "weak knee'd" about it. I don't think of it in political terms. It has more to do with the idea of getting something back when I give. I take very literally the admonishment in the Bible that giving be between me and God. I don't write checks for the same reason. Not that I am knocking anybody elses feelings about this.
What will you cut down next dubya? How I pray? I said right in the post that I was not implying anyone else had to feel the same way. These forums are not just for you to argue with others. They are also for people to chat and express themselves if you don't mind.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/5/2008 10:46:16 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8006
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
It is a pastor's duty to inform his flock if one of the candidates is not suitable for a Christian to vote for.
If the candidate is pro abortion, pro normalization of homosexual behavior, etc, then that pastor had better be telling his congregants not to vote for him.
We are not to be unequally yoked. How can we yoke ourselves to a person for 4 years if they are practing anti-biblical behaviors?
Based on this logic, our options are extremely limited. In most elections we would have to abstain!
I posted the rest of it soemwhere else, Sometimes we are forced to take the candidate who will do the least amount of harm. Abstaining in such a situation only allows the worst candidate to get into office. Voting for someone with one anti-biblical position is a whole lot better than not voting and letting someone with a whole raft of anti-biblical positions get elected.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/5/2008 11:10:29 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8006
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
ORIGINAL: John_O
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If we fail to lead the world goes to hell in a handbasket
Could you explain to me how we can prevent this? Isn't the world going to hell suppose to be the reason for the Second Coming?
No. The reason for the Second coming is to establish Christ's reign here on Earth. Just because this world is going to end and many people will go to hell is no reason for us to abandon our duty to try to keep as many out of hell as we can (by sharing the gospel and encouraging thenm to repent and not enabling them to stay in their sins)
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We rolled over on easy divorce and now marriage rates (and marriage success rates) are plummeting resulting in thousands of children being raised in broken homes, deprived of the two parents God designed them to have.
From what I've read the divorce rate is staggering among those who are already in the "church".
Because we rolled over on easy divorce. Proving my point. When the church doesn't lead things get bad.
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I really hate the term "Broken home" it sound's like there's an easy fix for it. I myself was a single a mother, my husband abused my child and I wouldn't stand for it. There was nothing "Broken about me".
You may not be broken, but the home is broke. It is lacking one iof the things needed to be whole (a father). Kids need two parents. That's how God designed us. Children learn different things from each parent. (An example of how this affects the kids is seen in the incidence of homosexual behavior in boys raised without a father or other strong male influence. Something like 97% of homosexuals (as reported in the "gay report") had an absent or insufficient relationshiop with their fathers).
A home without two parents (one of each sex) is broken. And I say that as a single father. (Lost my wife 3 years ago. I'm raising my daughter alone until God brings my new wife to me)
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Why? They are not married. They cannot produce children.
They're not married because we have voted in most states against same sex marriage. I myself don't believe in same sex marriage.
They're not married because they are lacking one of the things needed for a marriage. Marriage is one man and one woman. Period.
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They may not be able to have children physically together, but they may have children from previous relationships and marriages. They can also adopt in some places. What do you think Jesus would do about these helpless children who have no choice? You think he'd condemn them to Hell?
No. I think He'd call on the church to rescue them from the hell they are living in. Exposure of children to homosexual behavior is child abuse.
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Please explain what a normal home situation is? I understand a wife/husband, but just because you have these in a home situation does not make it normal. Pretty much all homes are dysfunctional in one way or another.
The most dysfunctional home with a man and a woman married to each other is still more normal than any homosexual living arrangement
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We of little faith.... Do you really think all of these kids raised in homosexual homes are truly going to Hell? Do you not have faith that even though they are placed in this precarious position that some of them will find their way to God. Remember we are suppose to hate the sin not the sinner.
Some will get lucky and overcome the ideas that are being pounded into their heads. But far fewer than should. Homosexuals are remarkable resistent to the gospel as they would have to sacrifice everything in their lives in order to be saved. To the heterosexual, sex is something you do. To the homosexual, sex is everything you are. Their entire world is built around their perversion
(Yes I know some.)
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The Church did get more involved during the last election, now look how things turned out.
The president is looking OK. Congress has really messed up since the democrats took over in 2006. What exactly are you referring to?
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There are no Politicians who don't have some immorality in thier past.
Exactly. And some have repented of that immorality while others are promoting that immorailty as good. (Rom 1:32 seeme to fit really well here). How can a Christian vote for someone who promotes anti-Christ?
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How each of votes is based on how we view things. No matter who a Christian votes for it doesn't make him/her any less a Christian, it just means we viewed things differently.
How can a Christian vote for someone who is anti-Christian? How can a Christian vote for someone who promotes ideas that God says specifically He hates? Do we follow God and do what He wants or do we vote for the abortionist?
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/5/2008 11:20:59 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1744
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Such campaigning has been well documented in the main stream media as far back as I can remember.
Gore in 2000 - NYT
Kerry in 2004 - Wash Post
How many examples do you want? We can get dozens from the Clinton years.
That's plenty, thanks for the info. : ) I'd just never seen anything like that for myself.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/5/2008 11:42:37 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 349
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
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Where in the Bible does God indicate it is the job of shepards to dictate to their sheep what their politican beliefs should be?
Religious shepards are responsible for leading us and instructing us how we should live, not vote.
Christians have a hard enough time aggreeing on what it means to be a Christian, why should it trouble itself on trying to come to an concensus on who our secular, and political leaders should be?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/5/2008 11:47:48 PM
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adelphi_sky
Posts: 407
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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Too many denominations. If all Christians were on one accord and had one voice, perhaps. But too many "one-offs" to be one voice. Differnt churches have different agendas.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 12:33:03 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1704
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Religious shepards are responsible for leading us and instructing us how we should live, not vote.
And who or what we vote for reflects how we live. Either the shepherds are not doing a good job of leading the fock, or the flock has gone astray.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 12:41:53 AM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 450
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: John_O
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No. The reason for the Second coming is to establish Christ's reign here on Earth. Just because this world is going to end and many people will go to hell is no reason for us to abandon our duty to try to keep as many out of hell as we can (by sharing the gospel and encouraging thenm to repent and not enabling them to stay in their sins)
You sorta miss understood me on this one? What I meant was Tribulation is coming before Christ's Second coming and it has to happen. I by no means meant we should abandon our faith.
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Because we rolled over on easy divorce. Proving my point. When the church doesn't lead things get bad.
My point is that even though the Church rolled over on easy divorce, there still shouldn't have been an increase in the divorce rate among members of the church. I would've expected the Church to still hold to a higher standard. You say, "when the Church doesn't lead things get bad", does mean the Church wasn't leading?
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No. I think He'd call on the church to rescue them from the hell they are living in. Exposure of children to homosexual behavior is child abuse.
What do you mean by,"rescue them from the hell their living in"? How can we possibly accomplish this without going to court and having their parental rights rescinded, even those of their biological children.
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The most dysfunctional home with a man and a woman married to each other is still more normal than any homosexual living arrangement
Even if the children are being severely abused, like in some of the current headlines?
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Homosexuals are remarkable resistent to the gospel as they would have to sacrifice everything in their lives in order to be saved. To the heterosexual, sex is something you do. To the homosexual, sex is everything you are. Their entire world is built around their perversion
I don't know about everything, but it would be pretty close. I do really hate how everything about them always centers around their sexuality and if you disagree we with them you're automatically labeled a homophic. I would say they are heterophobics.
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president is looking OK. Congress has really messed up since the democrats took over in 2006. What exactly are you referring to?
I don't think the president is looking so good. We invaded Iraqi based on fake or false info. His leave no kid behind was a flop. Our national deficient is in the trillions. I don't see that as doing o.k..
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There are no Politicians who don't have some immorality in thier past.
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Exactly. And some have repented of that immorality while others are promoting that immorailty as good. (Rom 1:32 seeme to fit really well here). How can a Christian vote for someone who promotes anti-Christ?
Just like the bible says, "what one person sees as sin, another person might not", but that doesn't mean either one of them are wrong.
Roman 14
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How each of votes is based on how we view things. No matter who Christian votes for it doesn't make him/her any less a Christian, it just means we viewed things differently.
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How can a Christian vote for someone who is anti-Christian? How can a Christian vote for someone who promotes ideas that God says specifically He hates? Do we follow God and do what He wants or do we vote for the abortionist?
Roman 14
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 12:51:22 AM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 349
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
Religious shepards are responsible for leading us and instructing us how we should live, not vote.
And who or what we vote for reflects how we live. Either the shepherds are not doing a good job of leading the fock, or the flock has gone astray.
So we are now expecting our sheperds do what the one true sheperd will not do?
Who gave us free will?
Who gave us a brain and the ability to realize for ourselves what a relationship with Him really means?
Who we decide to vote for and what are political beliefs may be is not the total picture of who we are either as individuals or in a corporate sense. There is a lot more at stake in an election that one or two issues than we tend to center on. Issues that are more reflective of where we are as a people and where we want to go.
IMO abortion and homosexuality are symptoms of larger issues that are the domain of a shepards than political and secular leaders.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 1:19:06 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1704
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
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I hear what you're saying, Leon. I odn't think we can blame the shepherds. Afterall, we have free will. What I see, however, is that we (as individuals) are so influenced by our media that the teaching of the shepherds is going unheeded. We have compartmentalized our faith from the other parts of our lives and we see this among so many others claiming the name of Christ. We don't like to be thoguht of as sheep. We like to be independent. Yet, we seem to be following the herd but the voice doing the calling is from an electronic box.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 4:08:08 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3370
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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Christians should be represented in our government. We should be an influence on government.
We tried that for a long time in Europe.
Reread what I said. There is a huge difference between control a government and influencing it.
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one that speak for God
I doubt any politician today or ever in america who proclaimed they spoke for God wouldn't be laughed out of the campaign. This isn't a danger in american politics.
The tax exempt status of churches. Maybe none should be but since the law is...if you endorse a political candidate from the pulpit you could lose your tax exempts status...if you do it, don't complain about the consequences.
I just don't see either candidate as being so evil that churches across america would forfiet their exempt status to campaign against one.
I must ask...is there anyone here suggesting the church should take over government? Not me.
Pastors telling the congregation who to vote for....to me, I would not like this. In my opinion my church does it right. Hand out pamphlets with each candidates stands on the issues and let people choose who they would vote for, hopefully based on their christian beliefs.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 7:44:04 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
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Anyone should be able to say or print anything that's not slander or libel. So of course churches should be able to endorse candidates.
Remember, thought, that there are all sorts of liberal churches, and most synagogues, who will endorse liberal candidates. And mosques too: there are tons of those now, and they're gonna do the same thing.
So I have no problem with this, because I don't care if people endorse positions I don't agree with. Make sure you feel the same. Sure, the Catholic Church is anti-abortion. It is also anti-death penalty and pro-immigration. Make sure you're comfortable with priests endorsing candidates who support those positions, too.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 1:20:28 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8006
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
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Because we rolled over on easy divorce. Proving my point. When the church doesn't lead things get bad.
My point is that even though the Church rolled over on easy divorce, there still shouldn't have been an increase in the divorce rate among members of the church. I would've expected the Church to still hold to a higher standard. You say, "when the Church doesn't lead things get bad", does mean the Church wasn't leading?
The church said "Divorce is no big deal" when they didn't fight strongly against no-fault divorce. How can you expect the people in the church to not get infected with the "marriage is only temporary" idea if the leadership obviously believes that way.
If the church rolls over on homosexuality you'll see more sexual deviants in the church. Same deal.
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No. I think He'd call on the church to rescue them from the hell they are living in. Exposure of children to homosexual behavior is child abuse.
What do you mean by,"rescue them from the hell their living in"? How can we possibly accomplish this without going to court and having their parental rights rescinded, even those of their biological children.
You asked if Jesus would allow kids to be in sexually deviant homes. I answered, no He would not. (And even though it is very politically incorrect, I'd be all for removing children from homes where the parent is not fit, and practicing sexual deviancy is not being fit.)
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The most dysfunctional home with a man and a woman married to each other is still more normal than any homosexual living arrangement
Even if the children are being severely abused, like in some of the current headlines?
The problem is that only a very few cases exist of kids being abused by heterosexual families (compared to the total number of heterosexual families) while every child raised in a homosexual environment is being abused. (Any exposure of children to homosexual behavior is child abuse).
I was raised in a home where my father was physically abusive. But he was married to my mom for most of those years.
My brother is trapped in homosexuality. I was molested by one of his "friends".
The pain and scars from the physical abuse heal far, far quicker than the emotional and mental scars from the sexual abuse.
I was able to forgive my dad by the time I was out of high school. It took decades to forgive the molester.
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I don't know about everything, but it would be pretty close. I do really hate how everything about them always centers around their sexuality and if you disagree we with them you're automatically labeled a homophic. I would say they are heterophobics.
Yep.
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president is looking OK. Congress has really messed up since the democrats took over in 2006. What exactly are you referring to?
I don't think the president is looking so good. We invaded Iraqi based on fake or false info.
Info that the democrats agreed was correct at the time. It was not just the President's decision to go in.
Also, how many terrorists attacks have we suffered here since we started attacking them on their own turf? none. Seems like a good plan to me.
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His leave no kid behind was a flop.
I'll agree with this one. Education is not the business of fed gov.
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Our national deficient is in the trillions.
Tell congress to stop spending money like a bunch of drunken sailors and this will get fixed. The President doesn't spend any money.
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There are no Politicians who don't have some immorality in thier past.
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Exactly. And some have repented of that immorality while others are promoting that immorailty as good. (Rom 1:32 seeme to fit really well here). How can a Christian vote for someone who promotes anti-Christ?
Just like the bible says, "what one person sees as sin, another person might not", but that doesn't mean either one of them are wrong.
Roman 14
It does when the sin is blatant. "Thou shalt not murder" yet the democrats say that murdering babies in the womb is fine. "A man who lies with a man as with a woman commits abomination (paraphrased)" Yet the democrats say that practicing sexual perversion is great.
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How each of votes is based on how we view things. No matter who Christian votes for it doesn't make him/her any less a Christian, it just means we viewed things differently.
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How can a Christian vote for someone who is anti-Christian? How can a Christian vote for someone who promotes ideas that God says specifically He hates? Do we follow God and do what He wants or do we vote for the abortionist?
Roman 14
Romans 14 is not a "get of of hell free card" Abortion is still sin. Homosexual behavior is still sin. How can a Christian support someone who encourages sin? Looks more like Romans 1:32 applies more than Romans 14 does.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 1:21:59 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8006
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
Anyone should be able to say or print anything that's not slander or libel. So of course churches should be able to endorse candidates.
Remember, thought, that there are all sorts of liberal churches, and most synagogues, who will endorse liberal candidates. And mosques too: there are tons of those now, and they're gonna do the same thing.
Those churches already do endorse liberal candidates. Democrats have been giving political speeches at black churches for years.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 1:39:12 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
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(Any exposure of children to homosexual behavior is child abuse).
Says who, you? Guess what, you're not the world's expert.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 1:40:31 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
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Those churches already do endorse liberal candidates. Democrats have been giving political speeches at black churches for years.
Great! It shouln't be a problem then. Anyone who wants to should promote anyone they want from any venue. Just don't cry when they disagree with you.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 1:42:09 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7785
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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Great! It shouln't be a problem then. Anyone who wants to should promote anyone they want from any venue. Just don't cry when they disagree with you.
Actually, I wholly agree with you here; it is the purpose of the 1st amendment, and attempts to limit such speech is an abrogation of that amendment; I am glad some are finally challenging it.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 3:42:13 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
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Actually, I wholly agree with you here; it is the purpose of the 1st amendment, and attempts to limit such speech is an abrogation of that amendment; I am glad some are finally challenging it.
Me too. I would like to see this extended to public schools too, especially in prayer, sex education, and biology. Let students pray to Jesus, Shiva, Satan, or Spongebob if they want to. Teach abstinence, and let students and teachers talk about birth control, safe sex, and any other related topic. Teach evolution, creation, flat earth, and any other origin myth.
A little off topic, so to bring it back: churches, and unions, and professional organizations, and any other group of people or their members, should be able as groups or as individuals to endorse whoever they please.
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 3:48:44 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
It is a pastor's duty to inform his flock if one of the candidates is not suitable for a Christian to vote for.
If the "flock" is composed of morons, then I agree. Otherwise the pastors duty is religious instruction and guidance. In a cult, the "pastor" tells the "flock" which candidate to vote for, if to vote at all.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 3:50:28 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
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Great! It shouln't be a problem then. Anyone who wants to should promote anyone they want from any venue. Just don't cry when they disagree with you.
Actually, I wholly agree with you here; it is the purpose of the 1st amendment, and attempts to limit such speech is an abrogation of that amendment; I am glad some are finally challenging it.
I agree also, with the qualification that all churches that want to practice this way should pay taxes and contributions would no longer be tax-deductible.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: What role should the Church play in the Election? - 10/6/2008 3:57:48 PM
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phreddy
Posts: 278
Joined: 3/28/2007
Status: offline
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I think that it should be up to the churches to decide. If the IRS determines that a large portion a particular church's resources are going toward politics, then let the IRs take away their 503(c) designation. I would like to hear my pastor state the Biblical stance on the issues. He always backs up his sermons with scripture and I would expect him to do it with politcal issues. I also wouldn;t mind if he showed how the candidates lined up on those issues. I would not want him to endorse a candidate, but if my church got too politcal I can always work to change it or find a new church. Our government is too important for the church is not be able to speak at all about it.
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