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Apologetic question - 10/3/2008 9:59:08 AM
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Rick4Him
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Fellow Bro's & Sis' in Christ,
I heard Hank Hannagraf selling his new edition of "Christianity in Crisis" on the airwaves the other day and his sizzle was that we need to stand against the false teachers like Hinn, Copeland, Hagen etc. He said that millions look at these false teachers and false prophets and turn from God because they see wacky Christians behaving very weird. He also claimed that many Christians who see them become bewildered at their silly productions and it weakens their faith. Now this wasn't word for word but you get the idea.
My question is "If God is sovereign, won't he lead those He elects to saving faith inspite of the TBN crowd, and won't He expose to true Christians the falseness of these false ones?"
Rick
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/3/2008 10:09:27 AM
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theredhog
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quote:
My question is "If God is sovereign, won't he lead those He elects to saving faith inspite of the TBN crowd, and won't He expose to true Christians the falseness of these false ones?"
I think so..He always has hasn't He? Noah...Abraham...Paul... Jesus chose the disciples out of unbelief ...
just my thinking...
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/3/2008 10:12:02 AM
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Bro_Shane
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The Calvinist answer to your question would be yes. The Arminian answer would be no. The middle of the road answer would be maybe.
However youo answer it, we are told to try the spirits and proclaim the truth.
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Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/3/2008 12:29:55 PM
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earthless
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We have the full Word of God.
And if we're born-again believers, we have the Holy Spirit.
No excuses.
It is our responsibility and God mandated duty to know the Word of God. To become so familiar with the authentic Word of God that when (not if) a counterfeit appears on the horizon we shall know it as such.
Get into the Word and get the Word into us.
False prophets, false teachers, counterfeit revivals, cults, occult, etc etc will be around till the return of Jesus Christ. Until then we are to test all things in light of Scripture and warn those of the wolves in sheeps clothing.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/3/2008 12:31:47 PM
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sue244
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God is soverign over both the means and the ends. He has told us in His word to test the Spirt, that is the means by which we will know false teaching (the ends).
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"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/3/2008 4:30:50 PM
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michele_erin
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Great question! I believe that it is possible yes for God to use whatever means He wants to get people to Christ, but as Christ followers we do need to be aware of those that are out there teaching falsely. Matt. 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible." I believe "the elect" are Christ followers. I personally can't read everything about everyone out there, so a ministry like Hank Hanegraaf's is very helpful. I know there are a lot of people who don't like that, but I for one am thankful. I used to listen to Hinn, Copeland, Jakes, until I read more up on them, and Hanegraaf's information on quotes, interviews, etc., that don't always make the "mainstream" helped me to realize that I shouldn't be listening to them. I haven't been a Christian for a bunch of years yet, so to have the information is awesome.
I personally hadn't liked Hanegraaf at first, but then began to realize that his ministry is very helpful, for example when that whole ordeal with Todd Bentley was going on, Hanegraaf had information on his site where a lot of ministries didn't publicly say anything until AFTER Bentley was exposed. Interesting. Great question!
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/4/2008 3:28:44 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Rick4Him...
My charge to Hank Hannegraaf would be something along the lines of "Hellfire and Brimstone" preachers (aka, Grumpy Holiness guys) turn at least as many people off of the Gospel as those demonstrating an extemporaneous "manifestation of the spirit" (can of worms... let's not go there).
However, God manages to defy logic on a fairly consistent basis. In Acts 2, the room shakes and people begin babbling in other languages... and 5000 people join the church. Later in Acts (3 or 4, I can't remember off the top of my head which) Ananias and Sapphira are struck dead at the feet of Peter by the Holy Spirit, and another 3000 are added to the church. Paul causes a riot and is nearly beaten to death... and in the same city founds one of the most dynamic churches of the ancient world (Ephesus).
God uses a variety of means to reach a variety of people. To that end, I would find the claim above laughable... no pun intended. Sure, strive for purity in doctrine. That is a holy pursuit.
(A) God IS sovereign.
(B) He is drawing all men to Himself, yet not all men will accept Him.
(C) A love of the Truth is the best vanguard against falsity.quote:
we have the Holy Spirit.
No excuses.
It is our responsibility and God mandated duty to know the Word of God. To become so familiar with the authentic Word of God that when (not if) a counterfeit appears on the horizon we shall know it as such.
Get into the Word and get the Word into us. This I can agree with. Just as their is no excuse with sin (according to James, anyway), there is no excuse with being decieved. Notice, in the story of the Fall in Genesis 3, both Adam and Eve had "legitimate" excuses for why they disobeyed, but God let neither off the hook.
As for Hannegraaf's ministry itself... yellow journalism doesn't impress me much.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/4/2008 7:36:59 AM
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OleFitzHi
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Yes...God will lead the elect down the right path. I haven't followed the teachings of Hannagraf, but God could use him or those like him as the "means" to make the truth known.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rick4Him
Fellow Bro's & Sis' in Christ,
I heard Hank Hannagraf selling his new edition of "Christianity in Crisis" on the airwaves the other day and his sizzle was that we need to stand against the false teachers like Hinn, Copeland, Hagen etc. He said that millions look at these false teachers and false prophets and turn from God because they see wacky Christians behaving very weird. He also claimed that many Christians who see them become bewildered at their silly productions and it weakens their faith. Now this wasn't word for word but you get the idea.
My question is "If God is sovereign, won't he lead those He elects to saving faith inspite of the TBN crowd, and won't He expose to true Christians the falseness of these false ones?"
Rick
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/4/2008 7:40:23 AM
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OleFitzHi
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At least Hell is a biblical doctrine, grumpiness notwithstanding. WOF prosperity Gospel is not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Rick4Him...
My charge to Hank Hannegraaf would be something along the lines of "Hellfire and Brimstone" preachers (aka, Grumpy Holiness guys) turn at least as many people off of the Gospel as those demonstrating an extemporaneous "manifestation of the spirit" (can of worms... let's not go there).
However, God manages to defy logic on a fairly consistent basis. In Acts 2, the room shakes and people begin babbling in other languages... and 5000 people join the church. Later in Acts (3 or 4, I can't remember off the top of my head which) Ananias and Sapphira are struck dead at the feet of Peter by the Holy Spirit, and another 3000 are added to the church. Paul causes a riot and is nearly beaten to death... and in the same city founds one of the most dynamic churches of the ancient world (Ephesus).
God uses a variety of means to reach a variety of people. To that end, I would find the claim above laughable... no pun intended. Sure, strive for purity in doctrine. That is a holy pursuit.
(A) God IS sovereign.
(B) He is drawing all men to Himself, yet not all men will accept Him.
(C) A love of the Truth is the best vanguard against falsity.quote:
we have the Holy Spirit.
No excuses.
It is our responsibility and God mandated duty to know the Word of God. To become so familiar with the authentic Word of God that when (not if) a counterfeit appears on the horizon we shall know it as such.
Get into the Word and get the Word into us. This I can agree with. Just as their is no excuse with sin (according to James, anyway), there is no excuse with being decieved. Notice, in the story of the Fall in Genesis 3, both Adam and Eve had "legitimate" excuses for why they disobeyed, but God let neither off the hook.
As for Hannegraaf's ministry itself... yellow journalism doesn't impress me much.
Adam
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/4/2008 2:48:51 PM
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terryjohn
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I always wondered why Paul was happy to see other men preach the gospel out of envy, for money or to cause strife. And now I see that in any case they preach Christ and when these preachers fall the ones they have preached to still have Christ. Their sins actually advertise the message of the gospel for their sins are only obvious because of it. Now when the unbeliever sees and judges them, they are actually confirming that those that do such things are worthy of death and yet they do the same things.
Is the gospel only valid if the men who proclaim it remain faithful to it? All the sin of men only confirms what the gospel of God has said, "For all have sinned.."
Now if we all reframed from preaching until we are all sinless or theologically perfect, I am afraid there would be no preaching at all. The gospel is very simple and many devils have preached it, but having preached it they seek to distort every word of it in practice and application. See satan in the garden of Eden when he repeats the words of God.
I do not believe that men who have truely put their faith in Christ could lose it becasue of the sins of the ones who preached the gospel to them. Is there anyone out there who has come to know Christ throught the ministry of a man who has now fallen from grace and still believes or have they all fallen away?
I can't help thinking about King Henry the eigth and how God used him to reform the church in England. Now he is not anyone we would want our daughters to marry and was not what we would use as a shining example of a christian but his actions led to a renewed freedom for future generations to come. Now if the extremes of the tele evangelists are offensive then other right wing extremes within the church must also do the same.
Now people may point out the problems of the church but are they right in throwing out the baby with the bath water?
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/4/2008 4:32:16 PM
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earthless
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terryjohn,
For the bulk of the time - the Jesus, the Gospel, the God being preached by many of these are not real - they are not those revealed in Scripture.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/5/2008 3:09:25 AM
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Rick4Him
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Adam,
Please let me know what is laughable about my post? And what is "yellow journalism" Thanks
Rick
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/5/2008 4:07:16 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Rick...
Your post is not laughable. The claim by Hannegraaf that Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Kennith Hagin are leading people to Hell and turning them off of the Gospel with any more notoriety than those such as himself that manage to come across as beligerant and angry. In my limited experience with evangelism, I have heard many people say that they were burned by overzealous holiness preachers... I have never heard someone say that they were turned off by a Benny Hinn show.
In fact, were I to use my intuition, the WoF crowd turns more people on to the Gospel because of the promises of God's blessing. Now, of course their doctrine is bad... I'm not attempting to claim otherwise. However, much of the huff and guff is overblown.
Yellow Journalism is where you have an authoritative premise and then set about finding evidence to support your premise, regardless of whether or not the evidence actually does so. A very common form of Yellow Journalism is what we see in a Film promo. The quote you see is "... Everyone... should see this movie!" yet the actual quote was, "Everyone with zero moral standards and no sense of art should see this movie." However, yellow journalism can be far, FAR more subtle than all that. Hope that helps...
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/5/2008 6:25:13 AM
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OleFitzHi
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I have heard several people say they were turned off by Benny Hinn.
It is one thing to be turned off by lies and deception.
It is another to be turned off by the truth. Sometimes we don't like the truth because it hits close to home.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Rick...
Your post is not laughable. The claim by Hannegraaf that Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Kennith Hagin are leading people to Hell and turning them off of the Gospel with any more notoriety than those such as himself that manage to come across as beligerant and angry. In my limited experience with evangelism, I have heard many people say that they were burned by overzealous holiness preachers... I have never heard someone say that they were turned off by a Benny Hinn show.
In fact, were I to use my intuition, the WoF crowd turns more people on to the Gospel because of the promises of God's blessing. Now, of course their doctrine is bad... I'm not attempting to claim otherwise. However, much of the huff and guff is overblown.
Yellow Journalism is where you have an authoritative premise and then set about finding evidence to support your premise, regardless of whether or not the evidence actually does so. A very common form of Yellow Journalism is what we see in a Film promo. The quote you see is "... Everyone... should see this movie!" yet the actual quote was, "Everyone with zero moral standards and no sense of art should see this movie." However, yellow journalism can be far, FAR more subtle than all that. Hope that helps...
Adam
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/5/2008 10:23:50 AM
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earthless
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How does Benny Hinn teaching that God is a 9 person entity not lead someone away from the truth of God's Word?
Yellow journalism implies that the facts are distorted and exaggerated about what is being reported/talked about.. the charge does not hold Adam, sorry.
How I wish you were right about that, seriously and sincerely.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/6/2008 3:55:14 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
How does Benny Hinn teaching that God is a 9 person entity not lead someone away from the truth of God's Word? To which I would ask why, as your own words have said, if Benny Hinn has repented of his WoF teachings, do you continue to harp on him?
Better still, why focus on Benny Hinn when we can say that the entire Word of Faith movement has bad doctrine, implying that any that follow it have bad doctrine? Even one step farther, why focus on the Word of Faith movement when all of humanity has bad doctrine?
When you can accurately explain the hypostatic union and the eternal trinity in-depth without slipping into heresy, I will be more than willing to listen it.quote:
Yellow journalism implies that the facts are distorted and exaggerated about what is being reported/talked about.. the charge does not hold Adam, sorry. Yellow journalism implies that the author had a preset conclusion that they set out to prove regardless of what their evidence actually says. Considering that I have zero respect for the idea of the "watchdog ministry" as a whole, it shouldn't surprise you that I feel the way I do.quote:
I have heard several people say they were turned off by Benny Hinn.
It is one thing to be turned off by lies and deception.
It is another to be turned off by the truth. Sometimes we don't like the truth because it hits close to home. It is my contention that when the truth is packaged in such a way as to purposely be offensive, it is just as sinful as knowingly teaching deception when someone is turned away.
Rather than explosive packaging, why not just let the truth of the matter offend on its own behalf? That is why I don't feel a need to call out someone as a false teacher/prophet. If I say that I disagree with them and use scripture to back it up, their offense is their own business. If I attempt to be volatile and offensive for the sake of being "edgy" or "radical", their offense is entirely my fault.
I'm entirely certain that there are Christans who have been turned off of the Charismatic message by guys like Benny Hinn, and I'm also entirely certain that many people have come to Christ through Benny Hinn's meetings. Why? Because I have known several unsaved people that came to Christ after attending a Benny Hinn event. You know what? I'm also certain that there are unsaved individuals that have been turned off to the Gospel because of Benny Hinn... just as I am certain that there are individuals that have been turned off because someone did an incredibly poor job trying to evangelize them.
"Who are you to judge another man's servant? It is to his own master that he stands or falls..." --Apostle Paul.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/6/2008 8:07:06 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
To which I would ask why, as your own words have said, if Benny Hinn has repented of his WoF teachings, do you continue to harp on him?
He repented to us at a dinner we had with him. But then he went on TV to curse us to death and say he wanted a "holy ghost machine gun".. so that he "could blow off our heads.."
Unless you're talking about a recent public repentance and apology that I some how have missed? Please advise, thanks.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
When you can accurately explain the hypostatic union and the eternal trinity in-depth without slipping into heresy,
I would be glad to share my statement of faith on the Trinity. None of it contains any heresy because it is based on the full context of Scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
"Who are you to judge another man's servant? It is to his own master that he stands or falls..." --Apostle Paul.
Adam
One sentence to build an entire doctrine? How about the dozens of other passages and context where the Apostle Paul calls out those who preach falsely, names names, exhorts us to do the same, etc?
Come on Adam, you're better than that.
Again, your charge of "yellow journalism" is in error.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/6/2008 11:16:22 AM
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themoodyexperience
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Rather than explosive packaging, why not just let the truth of the matter offend on its own behalf? That is why I don't feel a need to call out someone as a false teacher/prophet. If I say that I disagree with them and use scripture to back it up, their offense is their own business. If I attempt to be volatile and offensive for the sake of being "edgy" or "radical", their offense is entirely my fault.
Adam
Which would be fine if everyone was alike. But people have different levels of discernment. That's why the WoFers still thrive. It's up to some to tell others through scripture: "You know, these guys aren't exactly on the up and up."
_____________________________
Of course thieves hate watch-dogs, and love darkness. It is time that somebody should spring his rattle, and call attention to the way in which God is being robbed of his glory, and man of his hope.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/6/2008 11:37:51 AM
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Bro_Shane
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False teachers should be exposed. They lead the lost away from the true faith and they lead saints down paths of disappointment and dispair. The WoF crowd is the worst of the bunch. Their doctrine is corrupt, their promises are empty, and the way they twist God's word horrid.
moody - how's things in Tuscumbia? Greetings from the east side of Alabama!
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/6/2008 12:11:07 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
We have the full Word of God.
And if we're born-again believers, we have the Holy Spirit.
No excuses.
It is our responsibility and God mandated duty to know the Word of God. To become so familiar with the authentic Word of God that when (not if) a counterfeit appears on the horizon we shall know it as such.
Get into the Word and get the Word into us.
False prophets, false teachers, counterfeit revivals, cults, occult, etc etc will be around till the return of Jesus Christ. Until then we are to test all things in light of Scripture and warn those of the wolves in sheeps clothing.
This is the solution to most of our problems in Christendom.
quote:
Bro. Shane
False teachers should be exposed. They lead the lost away from the true faith and they lead saints down paths of disappointment and dispair. The WoF crowd is the worst of the bunch. Their doctrine is corrupt, their promises are empty, and the way they twist God's word horrid.
Amen.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/6/2008 12:13:04 PM
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Lapidoth
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Is "witch-hunter---hunter" a term? lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/6/2008 12:17:10 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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Here it is: "I am turned off by the Benny Hinn show."
quote:
In fact, were I to use my intuition, the WoF crowd turns more people on to the Gospel because of the promises of God's blessing.
Yes and then they get turned off too when the 'blessings' don't flow quite like they were told they would. 
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/6/2008 12:20:37 PM
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Lapidoth
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I am disgusted by the "Benny Hinn show, production, crusades, etc."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Apologetic question - 10/6/2008 12:23:30 PM
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solarflare
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Did I mention that I am turned off by the Benny Hinn show? 
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