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[Poll]
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Be Honest
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| Would have voted ‘Yes’ on first bailout plan |
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| Would have voted ‘Yes’ on Senate [second] bailout plan |
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| Would voted ‘NO’ on first plan and Senate [second] bailout plan |
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| Would vote ‘No’ on any bailout plan at this time. |
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| Other |
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Total Votes : 40
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(last vote on : 10/4/2008 6:23:31 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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Be Honest - 10/2/2008 2:03:20 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 694
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If you were a member of Congress; either in the House or Senate, right now; What would you do; How would you vote?
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 2:05:00 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 694
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I would vote 'No' on any bailout plan right now. I'd let the chops fall where they may.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 2:19:56 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1959
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: online
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No bailout.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 2:20:44 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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I read about a businessman that quipped something to the effect of, "Let 'em pay for their greed and stupidity," to his son when the stock market crashed in 1929. Within a year, the man's business went belly up and his son had to quit college to help his family get by. The businessman never held a steady job the rest of his life.
I'm hearing a lot of the same attitudes by people that, a year from now, could be in financial ruin if we let the chips fall where they may. I'm angry at the greedy, unethical people that caused this mess. But I don't want us to cut off our proverbial nose to spite our face.
KWIM?
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 2:36:05 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10951
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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This is not 1929.
No on any bailout/rescue at this time.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 2:40:34 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 694
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I read about a businessman that quipped something to the effect of, "Let 'em pay for their greed and stupidity," to his son when the stock market crashed in 1929. Within a year, the man's business went belly up and his son had to quit college to help his family get by. The businessman never held a steady job the rest of his life.
I'm hearing a lot of the same attitudes by people that, a year from now, could be in financial ruin if we let the chips fall where they may. I'm angry at the greedy, unethical people that caused this mess. But I don't want us to cut off our proverbial nose to spite our face.
KWIM?
Note, I said "at this time"; I believe there should be a bailout plan but I also believe the coming up Election in about 4 weeks is causing Panic to pass a plan --- any plan --- and this is wrong.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 2:47:36 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10951
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
This is not 1929.
It wasn't 1929 in 1930 either.
The Dow is down another 345 points..
And today isn't Monday either. The doomsayers on the boob tube were predicting the end of civilization as we know it on the drop of 777 points that day. Had a mighty healthy rebound Tuesday as I recall.
The key word in the term "Free Market" isn't market.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 2:55:08 PM
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rgsoundguy
Posts: 398
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I read about a businessman that quipped something to the effect of, "Let 'em pay for their greed and stupidity," to his son when the stock market crashed in 1929. Within a year, the man's business went belly up and his son had to quit college to help his family get by. The businessman never held a steady job the rest of his life.
I'm hearing a lot of the same attitudes by people that, a year from now, could be in financial ruin if we let the chips fall where they may. I'm angry at the greedy, unethical people that caused this mess. But I don't want us to cut off our proverbial nose to spite our face.
KWIM?
We have been artificially propping up this market, and that is how we got to this point. Let the chips fall. I know it will be hard, but if they don't fall now, they are just going to fall later, and if they fall later, it will be even harder. It's not about revenge on the greedy.
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 2:55:33 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Ben, about that healthy rebound, we're now less than 100 points from the close of Tuesday's crash of the 777 drop. IOW, it's gone.
We can let 'er go without intervention. But I honestly don't think any of us are going to be unaffected by the result.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 3:00:42 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10951
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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Well, I know we are debating for naught as Congress is going to pass a bailout plan, but as soundguy is saying, we have been artificially propping up the market and as hard as it may affect our retirement plans I'd rather have the cards fall now rather then later.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 3:07:25 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1060
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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I wouldn't categorically rule out any bailout ("rescue") plan, but I certainly don't want to mortgage my, my childrens', and my grandchildrens' futures without some awfully good guarantees that this isn't going to happen again and that those ( both in the private sector and in government) who caused the mess are punished.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 3:08:25 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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Status: offline
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Ben, I'll be honest and admit that I'm a dunce when it comes to the economy and not overly educated on the current mess. I just see the cause and effect between the news media and the nervous nellies on Wall Street and it has me concerned. That both Obama & McCain back the bailout made me lean toward it's importance. I could be totally wrong.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 3:12:25 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1959
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: online
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Want to know what started this?
http://www.ffiec.gov/cra/
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 3:17:27 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5695
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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I am a great believer in capitalism and the free market.
Puffed up prices, fuzzy accounting, and government guarentees all undermine what I believe in and just keep ushering socialism into our society.
Let the market and the credit lines settle where they may and procecute all the folks who broke laws (everyone).
That will put conficence back into our ecomomic system.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 10/2/2008 7:13:14 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 3:20:56 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2907
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Want to know what started this?
http://www.ffiec.gov/cra/
Here's what I wrote elsewhere on the topic.
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There are way too many causes to point a finger at any one. CRA disputably may played a part, but if so a very minor role.
First, the issue with CRA isn’t it’s establishment but rather its implementation by the banks it regulated. Here’s what I mean.
The basic goal of CRA is that you can’t take deposits in one community and invest them in another. That’s called “redlining” and it resulted in a severe capital shortage in many low income neighborhoods that were deemed to be undesirable risks. Interestingly, the only bank that supported CRA back in 1977 was ShoreBank. ShoreBank was an inner city bank on the south side of Chicago that actually did very well lending to small businesses in the inner city. ShoreBank was smart enough to know that CRA wasn’t necessarily bad legislation if you knew the basics of small business lending. In the neighborhoods ShoreBank was active, significant inner city redevelopment occurred with a corresponding rise in small business activity, employment, and income. ShoreBank saw CRA as a leveling of the playing field rather than government intrusion and supported the legislation knowing that the inner city was being unnecessarily starved for development capital.
Back in 1987, I went to work for a small bank in Indiana. That bank neatly dodged CRA by declaring it’s service area to be restricted to an above average income county with minimal minority presence. That bank steadfastly refused to expand elsewhere since that would have brought Gary, Indiana into its service area. By contrast, the old Gary National Bank (aka “Gainer Bank”) did quite well in that area and eventually became the largest local bank in that county by a factor of 5 by purchasing several local banks.
Again, it’s not CRA that’s the problem but finding ways to implement CRA profitably. It can be done, and has been done. Noone forced anyone to do anything stupid - lots of banks satisfy their CRA mandates without taking these kinds of losses. In fact, MOST do.
Here's an example. As recently as this past week, BB&T (east coast regional bank) was cited by analysts as an excellent institution for its avoidance of subprime loans. In reality, BB&T has historically done a significant amount of subprime lending. BB&T’s strategy however was different. They held all their loans on their own books and didn’t sell them. They used prudent underwriting and made sure people could document their incomes and could afford the loans. As a result, BB&T has largely avoided the entire mess while simultaneously getting an excellent CRA score. Clearly CRA considerations are not damaging BB&T’s performance.
BB&T is not alone. Wells Fargo has historically been one of the better subprime originators, again using reasonable underwriting criteria. Wells was also one of the larger issuers of subprime asset-backed securities. Wells’ losses in this sector have been modest and contained. Furthermore, Wells’ securitizations have performed in line with their ratings (unlike most others which have been downgraded, in some cases all the way from AAA to CCC in a very short amount of time.) Like BB&T, Wells understood that you can’t, and indeed don’t have to, abandon prudent underwriting in pursuit of legislatively mandated social goals.
Second, one of the other goals of CRA was to exert some form of discipline when it came to getting value from the government guarantee on their deposits. Banks benefit from a very low cost of borrowing due to the FDIC guarantee on deposits. The general feeling was, and still is, that the government and society in fairness needs to gain a benefit from that priviledge. In mandating that banks serve the lower income portions of society by creating low cost loan and savings products, CRA did not encourage bad underwriting. It was explicitly endorsing what we all know – that banks serve a dual purpose. They are first and foremost businesses intended to make profits and create jobs.
Secondarily, though, they are allocators of investment capital and able to fundamentally influence via that power who has an economic shot at prosperity and who does not. In this role, banks have an ethical consideration unlike any other business. We are the arbiters of economic justice like no other. Some regulation to enforce the judicious use of this power is both reasonable and advisable.
Third, nearly half of all subprime originations were done by entities not regulated by CRA. This mess would have happened with or without legislative mandates.
Fourth, since the inception of CRA, there has been a steady influx of capital into the inner cities. It’s entirely possible that CRA is a significant factor in the ongoing gentrification of a number of blighted urban neighborhoods. It has not been a perfect piece of legislation, but it has had some excellent results.
Fifth, independent of CRA considerations, profit motives alone would have steered people toward subprime loans.
On a normal $100k conventional loan, a bank might make a $250 profit after origination expenses. They wouldn’t actually get the cash from that profit for about 7 years. Accounting rules let banks claim the value of their servicing rights as profit even though the actual cash from that servicing doesn’t arrive immediately but is spread out over 3-30 years. Not a very attractive business working for a ¼ point non-cash profit.
Subprime loans on the other hand offered somewhere around an 8 point profit back in 1996-1997. That declined to a 3 point profit or less by 2002 or 2003. By 2005, it was down to ¾ point or $750. Far less than it had been but $500 of it was cash which is still three times as much as what banks were working for on the prime borrower side which wasn’t even a cash profit!
Is it any wonder that banks who were barely making any money at all on mortgages decided to drink the subprime Kool-Aid? Banks were struggling to make their vast mortgage origination platforms economically profitable. This seemed at the time like a silver bullet to that problem.
There's just way too much stupidity involved in today's crisis to really blame it on any one factor. Noone is stupid enough to have committed ALL of it.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 3:32:48 PM
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rgsoundguy
Posts: 398
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
That both Obama & McCain back the bailout made me lean toward it's importance. I could be totally wrong.
Well, that they both agree is strictly political. They need to look like they care to potential voters. However, I would have more respect if one of them at least questioned it. Being that neither has my vote, it confirmed for me what I was already thinking.
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 5:40:48 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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I don't know about y'all, but I take offense that the same politicians that helped cause this mess are rheorically blackmailing us by telling us that if the bailout doesn't pass, it will be the Great Depression all over again. Like it's our fault, or the fault of the congressmen who listened to their constituents and voted it down.
This crisis scares me spitless, but the political power grab and lack of accountability scares me more.
[Edited by moderator - TOS 5]
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Be Honest - 10/2/2008 7:25:53 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 694
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Ben, I'll be honest and admit that I'm a dunce when it comes to the economy and not overly educated on the current mess. I just see the cause and effect between the news media and the nervous nellies on Wall Street and it has me concerned. That both Obama & McCain back the bailout made me lean toward it's importance. I could be totally wrong.
I can't tell you how... upset McCain's voting for it has me; I'd love to hear the real reason why he did, I'm having a hard time believing it.
Have you seen this thread, HERE, in Current Events? It may help to know why some of us say 'No' at this time.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/3/2008 8:36:48 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10951
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
I can't tell you how... upset McCain's voting for it has me; I'd love to hear the real reason why he did, I'm having a hard time believing it.
Have you seen this thread, HERE, in Current Events? It may help to know why some of us say 'No' at this time. On top of Juan's statement just the other day that he would name the names of those who add and vote for pork. He better hone up on the pronunciation of his own name. 
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/3/2008 9:32:51 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
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I would vote no for any bailout plan because I am not a socialist or communist.
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RE: Be Honest - 10/3/2008 9:56:53 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 692
Joined: 7/3/2008
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TheosCentric:
You're lucky to have such a brave and sensible senator! How about DeMint for POTUS in 2012?
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RE: Be Honest - 10/3/2008 10:02:45 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1959
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: online
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That'd be nice. I used to think Graham would be good, but lately I'm not so sure.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Be Honest - 10/3/2008 10:12:03 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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No.
I understand that something has got to be done. But 700 Billion?
I think people are voting different because of the election.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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