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OBAMA ON JUDGES, SUPREME COURT

Speaking at the Planned Parenthood conference in DC this afternoon, Barack Obama leveled harsh words at conservative Supreme Court justices, and he offered his own intention to appoint justices with "empathy." Obama hinted that the court's recent decision in Gonzales v. Carhart -- which upheld a ban on partial-birth abortion -- was part of "a concerted effort to steadily roll back" access to abortions. And he ridiculed Justice Anthony Kennedy, who wrote that case's majority opinion. "Justice Kennedy knows many things," he declared, "but my understanding is that he does not know how to be a doctor."

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So let me understand this. What you're saying is, if a vote for someone allows certain freedoms of choice, then those who vote are responsible for the choices other people make? Hmmmm. Not sure that's found in the bible. I though each man was responsible for his own sin. Let's see. That means those who voted for politicians back in the prohibition days are responsible for alcoholism and drunk driving. Those who voted for politicians who somehow favored tobacco are responsible for those dying of luncg cancer. Those who voted for politicians on the right to bear arms are responsible for murders and even accidents involving guns. I can go on and on. The point is, individuals make their own choices. God gave us each a free will to choose. God didn't force us to love Him. He allowed us to choose to love Him. People are against socialism, yet they want to government to make our choices for us. Why not ban guns? They kill people just as much as abortions do? We as Christians should be reaching out to those people who are capable of making choices we don't agree with. Forcing them to choose is not God's will, and neither should it be ours.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

I am not so sure if how difficult this is to figure out.

If one was a voter in the 1800's and the candidate in question says, "If elected, I will do eveything in my power to insure states maintain the right to keep slaves" and then one goes on and votes for that candidate, then one is in part responsible for the ongoing existence of slavery. The same holds true for abortion.

I mean if the voters who elect candidates aren't at least partially responsible for what those candidates do (or what they are able to do), when they have made what they will do clear, who then is responsible?

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ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky

So let me understand this. What you're saying is, if a vote for someone allows certain freedoms of choice, then those who vote are responsible for the choices other people make? Hmmmm. Not sure that's found in the bible.

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I though each man was responsible for his own sin.

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Let's see. That means those who voted for politicians back in the prohibition days are responsible for alcoholism and drunk driving.

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Those who voted for politicians on the right to bear arms are responsible for murders and even accidents involving guns.

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I can go on and on.

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The point is, individuals make their own choices. God gave us each a free will to choose.

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God didn't force us to love Him. He allowed us to choose to love Him.

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People are against socialism, yet they want to government to make our choices for us.

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Why not ban guns? They kill people just as much as abortions do?

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We as Christians should be reaching out to those people who are capable of making choices we don't agree with.

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Forcing them to choose is not God's will, and neither should it be ours.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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So let me understand this. What you're saying is, if a vote for someone allows certain freedoms of choice, then those who vote are responsible for the choices other people make? Hmmmm. Not sure that's found in the bible. I though each man was responsible for his own sin. Let's see. That means those who voted for politicians back in the prohibition days are responsible for alcoholism and drunk driving. Those who voted for politicians who somehow favored tobacco are responsible for those dying of luncg cancer. Those who voted for politicians on the right to bear arms are responsible for murders and even accidents involving guns. I can go on and on. The point is, individuals make their own choices. God gave us each a free will to choose. God didn't force us to love Him. He allowed us to choose to love Him. People are against socialism, yet they want to government to make our choices for us. Why not ban guns? They kill people just as much as abortions do? We as Christians should be reaching out to those people who are capable of making choices we don't agree with. Forcing them to choose is not God's will, and neither should it be ours.

So you don't think politicians who voted to allow slavery to continue in the southern states were in part responsible for slavery?

Or to take your logic even further - as no law actually stops certain human behaviors from occuring all together (theft, rape, murder, etc) would it then follow that such laws are unimportant? And if a politician advocated a law that would legalize theft, or rape, or murder, wouldn't that politician (and the people who voted for him knowing his stance) be partially responsible for the rise in such activities?

Or is it your opinion that laws are useless all together, and we should simply not have a government?

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Republicans then are just as complicit by that logic for they have done nothing to try to overturn Roe v. Wade!

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ORIGINAL: mapachito13

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

I am not so sure if how difficult this is to figure out.

If one was a voter in the 1800's and the candidate in question says, "If elected, I will do eveything in my power to insure states maintain the right to keep slaves" and then one goes on and votes for that candidate, then one is in part responsible for the ongoing existence of slavery. The same holds true for abortion.

I mean if the voters who elect candidates aren't at least partially responsible for what those candidates do (or what they are able to do), when they have made what they will do clear, who then is responsible?

Republicans then are just as complicit by that logic for they have done nothing to try to overturn Roe v. Wade!

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Just because a law allows something doesn't mean you have to participate. There are laws that indirectly provide freedoms for bad choices. This is a free country. I'm sure there weren't laws that forced people to purchase slaves. There were people who couldn't afford slaves. They weren't arrested. We have the freedom to choose to participate in things we feel are good or bad. But should I be responsible for the choice of someone to shot someone in the back with a gun when I feel gun ownership is a right? Of course not. Anymore than I should be blamed for someone in the south owning slaves because I voted for someone who allowed it to happen. In a free society, there is always going to be room for free choice to go against the beliefs of someone else. You can't get around it. The only way you can get around it is to have a theocratic dictatorship with no freedom of choice.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

I am not so sure if how difficult this is to figure out.

If one was a voter in the 1800's and the candidate in question says, "If elected, I will do eveything in my power to insure states maintain the right to keep slaves" and then one goes on and votes for that candidate, then one is in part responsible for the ongoing existence of slavery. The same holds true for abortion.

I mean if the voters who elect candidates aren't at least partially responsible for what those candidates do (or what they are able to do), when they have made what they will do clear, who then is responsible?

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ORIGINAL: AdelphiSky

So let me understand this. What you're saying is, if a vote for someone allows certain freedoms of choice, then those who vote are responsible for the choices other people make? Hmmmm. Not sure that's found in the bible. I though each man was responsible for his own sin. Let's see. That means those who voted for politicians back in the prohibition days are responsible for alcoholism and drunk driving. Those who voted for politicians who somehow favored tobacco are responsible for those dying of luncg cancer. Those who voted for politicians on the right to bear arms are responsible for murders and even accidents involving guns. I can go on and on. The point is, individuals make their own choices. God gave us each a free will to choose. God didn't force us to love Him. He allowed us to choose to love Him. People are against socialism, yet they want to government to make our choices for us. Why not ban guns? They kill people just as much as abortions do? We as Christians should be reaching out to those people who are capable of making choices we don't agree with. Forcing them to choose is not God's will, and neither should it be ours.

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ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter

It boils down to this: men have forgotten what honor is. Honor says a man will face up to his adversary and tell him, "You're against what God is for, and for what God is against. So although I know it won't matter in the end, that your unrighteousness will prevail, I'll still stand against you, until I fall."

We all know by now abortion will never be overturned in this country; too many people--especially CINOs--love it too much, and it's too late. So does that mean because I'm on the losing end of this fight, I'll cave in and vote for monsters? Never. It simply means I'll stand my ground to the last, and get my approval from the only One who really matters.

Okay. Flame away.

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So all of us that votede for Bush in 2000 are responsible for every abortion that has taken place since he hasn't done anything substantive about it. We are also responsible for those gay couples that got married, and every casualty in Iraq and every bad hot dog sold at every Nationals' game. Gimmeabreak.

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ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky

Just because a law allows something doesn't mean you have to participate.

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There are laws that indirectly provide freedoms for bad choices. This is a free country. I'm sure there weren't laws that forced people to purchase slaves. There were people who couldn't afford slaves. They weren't arrested. We have the freedom to choose to participate in things we feel are good or bad. But should I be responsible for the choice of someone to shot someone in the back with a gun when I feel gun ownership is a right? Of course not. Anymore than I should be blamed for someone in the south owning slaves because I voted for someone who allowed it to happen. In a free society, there is always going to be room for free choice to go against the beliefs of someone else. You can't get around it. The only way you can get around it is to have a theocratic dictatorship with no freedom of choice.

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ORIGINAL: Zhi

I would point out that owning a gun is not illegal, but shooting someone with it (other than self defense or during sanctioned armed combat) most certainly is.

If we're going to talk about having something that has the capacity to kill someone, then cars are far, far more important to ban than guns, as cars kill far more people every year than guns do.

And, knives can kill people. And, really sharp sticks can kill people. And, rocks can kill people. And, when all those get banned, you can still strangle someone with your bare hands.

Therefore, we just ban murder and have done with it.

Abortion is killing someone. Having a gun is not killing someone. It gives you the capacity to possibly kill someone, but so does picking up a rock, or a knife, or getting in a car, or picking up a pointy stick, or just... having hands.

To equate the two is ridiculous.

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OK OK i want to know this -

if i vote for obama, then is God gonna hold ME personally responsible for continued abortions in this country?

and on that logic, if I vote for mccain and the abortion laws are NOT overturned, then what does that make me? a baby killer since mccain will not have overturned the laws either.

Either way, the abortion issue is gonna be there, its going on RIGHT NOW. no one is destroying abortion clinics. no matter who i vote for, abortion is going to continue. i know you hate it, but its a factoid of life.. unfortunately.

ok unless you destroy an abortion clinic, that must mean that you, Christian, support that clinic being up there doing business every day.

see how that is skewed logic? i dont think its fair for me to burden that. if i want to stop abortion, i'll just destroy all the abortion clinics in the nation. but im not. so i guess im already a baby killer by the fact that i just sit here and do nothing about it.

oh taking THAT logic, does that mean a vote for mccain means your off the hook for abortions, coz you voted for a guy that claims he is anti-abortion? you think that will get YOU off the hook?

I dont think so.

You are just as much at fault just wishin and hopin it will go away as i am when i vote for obama, if i do decide to vote for him. I better not admit it or else you will hunt me down and do something bad to me.

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ORIGINAL: Zhi

Well, you might as well say that since there will still be unsaved people, we shouldn't bother witnessing.

It's always a journey, an effort. I think God will credit us for efforts on the part of the unborn, rather than condemning us for not working "fast enough". We *know* it's going to be a slow process, it takes a long time to change supreme court justices, which is the institution that created this mess in the first place. The important part is to keep trying, whether it's locally, helping with crisis pregnancy centers, or nationally, voting for congresspeople (who could make laws to help) and presidents (who appoint the supreme court justices) who are pro-life.

Bush DID make progress. He signed the Partial Birth Abortion Ban. He denied government funds to agencies that provide abortions. He declared "National Sanctity of Life Day" to remind people what's going on. I didn't get this (severely shortened) list from a pro-life site either... I got it from a very angry pro-choice site. Is it everything a pro-lifer could have hoped for? No, but it IS progress.