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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/23/2008 5:43:45 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
I understand completely what Senator Obama was saying ... and what you are saying
No you don't. "Personhood" should be discussed and brought up because that is what needs to be determined. Prolife people believe that a baby whether newly conceived or 6 mos. old are persons and those who are prochoice do not. Establishing personhood means alot and defines shaded lines. I want to know exactly what the other side thinks so I know what I'm up against. He has no business agreeing with a bill he, nor the people he represents, agrees with.
I really do understand completely what you are saying ... understanding is not the issue. I simple disagree in the strongest sense.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/23/2008 5:47:16 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1539
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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So you don't believe that the courts should discuss what "personhood" means?
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/23/2008 5:54:20 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
So you don't believe that the courts should discuss what "personhood" means?
I do not have a problem with the courts taking a good hard look at that issue ... it is Senator Obama whose words and actions state he does NOT wish to open up this can of worms because it may result in overturning Roe v Wade ...
When he said, "Number one, whenever we
define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the
equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution,
what we’re really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that
are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to
a a child, a ninemonthold child that was delivered to
term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by
a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it it
would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection
clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a
child, then this would be an "antiabortion statute."
He does not want the courts to overturn R vW and he does not want them to address the personhood question because it would result in establishing a "antiabortion statute."
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/23/2008 5:56:33 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
So you don't believe that the courts should discuss what "personhood" means?
No. Whenever they do they tend to find people they can exclude from humanity to they can enslave them, brutalize them or murder them.
< Message edited by ljmac -- 9/24/2008 12:07:08 AM >
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/23/2008 7:38:17 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
So you don't believe that the courts should discuss what "personhood" means?
No. Whenever they do then tend to find people they can exclude from humanity to they can enslave them, brutalize them or murder them.
Amen! When you discuss what personhood is, then you have to discuss what it isn't as well. And there may come a day when you and I are no longer considered a "person." Ready for that????
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/23/2008 11:21:48 PM
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rgsoundguy
Posts: 398
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
Passing anti-abortion legislation in Congress is a herculean task. Not only do you need a majority in both houses (which is not guaranteed by a Republican majority since there are pro-choice Republicans, like the senior senator from my own state),
Yeah, and the Jr Senator from our state allowed people to believe he was a pro-life democrat like his father of the same name. That's what got him elected and it's a bold faced lie!
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/23/2008 11:27:02 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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There was an elected offical from Colorado that said the elderly had a duty to get out of the way and die because they were using scare medical resources that needed to be used on the young who still had promise.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/23/2008 11:42:21 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
Vicious attacks on the unborn and partially born are mainstream Democratic Party religion.
quote:
EPA won't limit rocket fuel in U.S. drinking water
The ingredient, perchlorate, has been found in at least 395 sites in 35 states at levels high enough to interfere with thyroid function and pose developmental health risks, particularly for babies and fetuses, according to some scientists.
You'd think the "fetus" part would get them, but nah. The jet fuel lobby (i.e. the Pentagon) trumps "life" in Republican circles.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/24/2008 12:17:50 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
Passing anti-abortion legislation in Congress is a herculean task. Not only do you need a majority in both houses (which is not guaranteed by a Republican majority since there are pro-choice Republicans, like the senior senator from my own state),
Yeah, and the Jr Senator from our state allowed people to believe he was a pro-life democrat like his father of the same name. That's what got him elected and it's a bold faced lie!
Robert Casey was hated by other Democrats. When the DNC had their convention in Philadelphia (96?), he was governor of Pennsylvania, but was denied the permission to speak. Buttons were worn by delegates that had a picture of Casey in Pope attire with the prohibition (circle and slash) stamped on Casey.
His son, now US senator, told everyone he was pro-life. Then one of the first votes he cast was to oppose Republican's Mexico City policy, which protects foreign children from American funded abortionists. He wants to export abortion to poor children.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/24/2008 9:12:21 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8005
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I'm pro life, but Obabma did bring up some concerns as he should considering he is a representative of the people. He's prochoice and represents those who are pro choice, What would you have him do?
"Repent" sounds like a good start. Else "roast in hell" will probably be the finish
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/24/2008 9:15:15 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8005
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
I do get it.
No you don't . He's concerned that if the "personhood" is established then Roe v Wade could be in trouble. We should be happy he's questioning this.
Roe v Wade should be in trouble. Abortion is murder. There is no right to murder.
He's not questioning how to overturn Roe V Wade. He's trying to defend the indefensible act of murdering babies.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/24/2008 9:21:36 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8005
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy
Yeah, and the Jr Senator from our state allowed people to believe he was a pro-life democrat like his father of the same name. That's what got him elected and it's a bold faced lie!
There are no pro-life democrats. Not a single one. By allying themselves with the pro-death democrat party they declare their true beliefs.
As you found out, some claim to be pro-life but they are lying for political expediency.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/24/2008 9:34:11 AM
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rgsoundguy
Posts: 398
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy
Yeah, and the Jr Senator from our state allowed people to believe he was a pro-life democrat like his father of the same name. That's what got him elected and it's a bold faced lie!
There are no pro-life democrats. Not a single one. By allying themselves with the pro-death democrat party they declare their true beliefs.
As you found out, some claim to be pro-life but they are lying for political expediency.
Well, at the time I lived in the most screwed up state other than California, of course I am speaking of New Jersey, so I was not able to vote in PA during that election. Rick Santorum definitely would have had my vote. I could see right through Bobby Jr.
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/24/2008 3:15:19 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 628
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
There was an elected offical from Colorado that said the elderly had a duty to get out of the way and die because they were using scare medical resources that needed to be used on the young who still had promise.
It wasn't just any elected official it was Gov. Lamm
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/25/2008 1:15:24 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2335
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
There was an elected offical from Colorado that said the elderly had a duty to get out of the way and die because they were using scare medical resources that needed to be used on the young who still had promise.
It wasn't just any elected official it was Gov. Lamm
That's quite frightening.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/25/2008 1:49:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Maybe I'm not the one getting this thread. Obama is prochoice and he's gonna do everything in his power to uphold Roe v Wade, what did you expect him to do? What is the point of this thread other than to bash him?
Since the man claims Christ I for one expect to at least attempt to live up to what he claims...
quote:
Abortion is a heart issue and untill people's hearts are changing it will remain legal.
All crime/sins are a heart issue... Abortion is just another method of murder...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 9/26/2008 11:50:11 AM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/25/2008 10:48:48 PM
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rgsoundguy
Posts: 398
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
Status: offline
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Abortion is the major issue when I believe the Libertarian party has it wrong. Here's how I see it. I will concede, that I can not prove that life begins at conception, however, the pro-abortion person must also concede, that he or she can not prove that life does not begin at conception. Being that life is one of the natural rights defined in the Declaration of Independence. If I make an error, I would rather it be on the side of life. Is that making any sense?
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/25/2008 11:22:20 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy
Abortion is the major issue when I believe the Libertarian party has it wrong. Here's how I see it. I will concede, that I can not prove that life begins at conception, however, the pro-abortion person must also concede, that he or she can not prove that life does not begin at conception. Being that life is one of the natural rights defined in the Declaration of Independence. If I make an error, I would rather it be on the side of life. Is that making any sense?
Sure you can. Here is a sample.
"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]
"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception)."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... [O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29.
Life begins at conception, no matter what your pay grade is.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/25/2008 11:28:48 PM
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rgsoundguy
Posts: 398
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy
Abortion is the major issue when I believe the Libertarian party has it wrong. Here's how I see it. I will concede, that I can not prove that life begins at conception, however, the pro-abortion person must also concede, that he or she can not prove that life does not begin at conception. Being that life is one of the natural rights defined in the Declaration of Independence. If I make an error, I would rather it be on the side of life. Is that making any sense?
Sure you can. Here is a sample.
"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]
"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception)."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... [O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29.
Life begins at conception, no matter what your pay grade is.
I agree with you, but a person who has an opposing view point can just as easily dismiss all that and say that life begins when brain wave activity is detected (2nd trimester, the viewpoint of Tony Campolo from good ol' liberal Eastern University). Coming to an understanding like I listed above is logical. Most people who hold a libertarian view point can't argue that. Now if you are talking to a liberal and abortion is their sacrament, nothing can really get through other than the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/25/2008 11:51:04 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy
Abortion is the major issue when I believe the Libertarian party has it wrong. Here's how I see it. I will concede, that I can not prove that life begins at conception, however, the pro-abortion person must also concede, that he or she can not prove that life does not begin at conception. Being that life is one of the natural rights defined in the Declaration of Independence. If I make an error, I would rather it be on the side of life. Is that making any sense?
Sure you can. Here is a sample.
"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]
"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception)."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... [O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29.
Life begins at conception, no matter what your pay grade is.
I agree with you, but a person who has an opposing view point can just as easily dismiss all that and say that life begins when brain wave activity is detected (2nd trimester, the viewpoint of Tony Campolo from good ol' liberal Eastern University). Coming to an understanding like I listed above is logical. Most people who hold a libertarian view point can't argue that. Now if you are talking to a liberal and abortion is their sacrament, nothing can really get through other than the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I checked multiple sources. Many cited the ability to measure brain waves early in the second month. But for many people it hardly matters what the stage of development is. Every single Democratic candidate for Pres believes that it should be legal to suck the brains out of babies who are quite capable of living outside the womb.
Campolo is a tolerant man. He's tolerated 10 million dead, 20 million, 30 million, 40 million, even 50 million. His tolerance knows no bounds.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/26/2008 12:17:48 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2335
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy
Abortion is the major issue when I believe the Libertarian party has it wrong. Here's how I see it. I will concede, that I can not prove that life begins at conception, however, the pro-abortion person must also concede, that he or she can not prove that life does not begin at conception. Being that life is one of the natural rights defined in the Declaration of Independence. If I make an error, I would rather it be on the side of life. Is that making any sense?
Sure you can. Here is a sample.
"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]
"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception)."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... [O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29.
Life begins at conception, no matter what your pay grade is.
I agree with you, but a person who has an opposing view point can just as easily dismiss all that and say that life begins when brain wave activity is detected (2nd trimester, the viewpoint of Tony Campolo from good ol' liberal Eastern University). Coming to an understanding like I listed above is logical. Most people who hold a libertarian view point can't argue that. Now if you are talking to a liberal and abortion is their sacrament, nothing can really get through other than the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The best way to inform people about when life begins is using The National Geographic's In the Womb documentary.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/26/2008 7:57:34 AM
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rgsoundguy
Posts: 398
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
Status: offline
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Seph K & ljmac,
We agree that abortion is wrong and have different methods of debating it with those who disagree. The important thing is that we agree. Let's just settle on that and agree to disagree about our debate tactics.
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
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RE: You were supposed to die, so do it! - 9/26/2008 8:22:54 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2335
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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Science and technology has proven when life begins. They can now see the progress from just before conception all the way to birth. People can pretend to ignore the truth but that doesn't change the truth. This is basic biology. It there is no life there is no growth period. If an organism is dead it will not grow.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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