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What can I believe in? - 9/21/2008 4:22:41 AM
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EFLin
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I used to come here a lot many years ago. I lost interest in Crosswalk when I saw how naive some of the members insisted on remaining. All I can tell you right now, is that many "Christians" would consider me a heretic. I consider them shortsighted. I did not come back to Crosswalk to stir up trouble or controversy, but instead I am hoping that there are actual Christians here who can help me with my ongoing struggles.
Faith has always been a problem for me. At the age of 7 years old I denounced God and proclaimed myself an athiest. I considered religion unimportant after that, and didn't give it much thought as I didn't believe it mattered that much. My mother and I moved around a lot, so I was never really able to make consistent friendships anywhere.
At the age of 17, desperate for acceptance, I started hanging out with other kids my age in the group "YoungLife". Some of you might be familiar with it. Anyway, as a result of that, I decided to give God another chance, and gave my life to Christ at a camp in the summer of 1989.
I am probably too smart for my own good. As the years have gone on, I have come up with more and more questions regarding my faith. It has gotten to the point where I will not discuss my faith, or what I believe because I do not doubt that I could lead anyone away from Christ whose faith was not strong enough. Strangely enough, the only thing that keeps me from abandoning faith in God completey are the logical arguments against such an action. What irony!
Here is the bottom line, the reason I have come back. I need to know if there is anyone out there, whose faith is strong enough to stand up to the questions I have to ask. To the topics I need to discuss. I need to talk with individuals who are not afraid to come to the table and seriously talk about what they believe in and why.
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/21/2008 4:26:51 AM
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EFLin
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One thing I need to stess - I do not want to discuss the harder topics here in the forums due to the "immature" Christians who will not be able to handle the subject matter. I am not here to hurt anyone's faith. I seriously want answers, and some help. My family is in the balance. If anyone wants to discuss this personally or privately, I would rather do that.
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/21/2008 8:41:24 AM
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deermousie
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OK, EFLin, here's what you do. Find a local Presbyterian PCA church and go talk to the pastor. If he can't handle the heavy stuff, he knows someone who can. This denomination has been called "religion for smart people." The Christian Reformed Evangelicals might be a good start, too, and anyone from Westminster Theological Seminary (Philadelphia or in Escondido, CA) if you want the really big guns.
There's probably plenty of smart and well-trained Christians out there, I just don't know who they all are in my limited circle and lack of experience with other denominations.
God bless you, EFLin. There are answers for your questions, what ever they are. He's a big God.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/21/2008 8:57:05 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1124
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EFLin
Here is the bottom line, the reason I have come back. I need to know if there is anyone out there, whose faith is strong enough to stand up to the questions I have to ask. To the topics I need to discuss. I need to talk with individuals who are not afraid to come to the table and seriously talk about what they believe in and why.
What you need is Jesus Christ. None of us has faith that is strong, it is the One in whom we have placed our faith Who is strong.
We are all serious about what we believe, and there are no questions that have not already been asked and answered. There is nothing new under the sun. Ask away, and then turn to your Bible and check the answers you get against the revealed Word of God. Never believe anything anyone tells you, they could be lying through their teeth.
The question is...are you willing to give up the lie that the truth exposes?
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/21/2008 11:19:54 AM
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kmangel
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One thing that may be holding you up is that God wants us to have the faith of a child. It's not that we are to be clueless as Christianity is a very logical faith (in my opinion), but to have faith one must also be very trusting of God like a child trusts his parents.
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Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/21/2008 11:25:47 AM
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Little_1
Posts: 1488
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EFLin
......I am probably too smart for my own good. As the years have gone on, I have come up with more and more questions regarding my faith. It has gotten to the point where I will not discuss my faith, or what I believe because I do not doubt that I could lead anyone away from Christ whose faith was not strong enough. Strangely enough, the only thing that keeps me from abandoning faith in God completely are the logical arguments against such an action. What irony!
Sounds like your questions could possibly involve 'reasons not to believe in God' (sorry if I've presumed wrong) but yet there is this part of you which is not completely abandoning Christ and which can't let go.
Sounds to me like God's amazing grace has His hand of love upon your life and you are struggling not to come under His wings in totality because you may be afraid of what this will involve or cost.
EFlin there are many Christians on this site who will pray for you including myself. I don't know the answer for your dilemma which you have shared but I do know Someone who does and I trust He will help you if you do in fact want His help (which is seems very likely that you do from what you have posted).
Take care
Little_1
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/21/2008 3:43:21 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5668
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EFLin
Here is the bottom line, the reason I have come back. I need to know if there is anyone out there, whose faith is strong enough to stand up to the questions I have to ask. To the topics I need to discuss. I need to talk with individuals who are not afraid to come to the table and seriously talk about what they believe in ...
Well shucks bubba, I don't know; why don't you toss one of your tough questions out there and let's see what happens.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/21/2008 4:41:45 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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I used to struggle with a lot of whys and hows of the bible. When I got saved a lot of it didn't matter anymore. I mean I still study and want to understand as much as I can about the bible, but it is not what I know it is Who I know and that is Jesus Christ. When He opened my eyes to salvation, I was freed of all the questions about how did this occur, what about this etc etc. I know God loves me and sent His son to die for my sins and He saved my soul and set me free. If I understand all of the bible or just 5% of it, I am fine. As long as I point to Christ and glorify Him I am happy.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/21/2008 5:21:26 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
I used to struggle with a lot of whys and hows of the bible. When I got saved a lot of it didn't matter anymore.
Amen to that AboundinginHisGrace, getting saved sure does clear up many of those "problems" with Scripture.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/22/2008 6:44:26 AM
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peacebearer
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so I hope someone has engaged your questioning mind...
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"For to me to live is Christ, to die is gain" Philippians 1: 21
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/23/2008 8:40:55 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: icerapture
ELFin, you are precisely the kind of "Christian" I came here to discuss with. I, am a Secular Humanist; that means I am an Agnostic (not sure what to believe) only while being unsure of what belief system to join, I believe that basic laws (such as do not murder, do not adulter, do not steal and excetera) should be upheld to preserve the society that us humans hold so dear. Instead of blaming bad deeds on various other worldly apparitions, I consult sociology, psychology and criminology for my reasoning. I chose my religion because It allows me to remain open minded, and still civilized (although that shiny car new porsche unlocked down the road still beckons me, JK  ). I look forward to intelligent responses and discussions in the future.
(Rom 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/28/2008 4:28:54 AM
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EFLin
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I don't choose my "religion" because it allows me to "remain open minded". I am open minded, therefore I choose my religion. My "religion" is Christianity, although not as such as many here might recognize it. I wonder if some, who upon discovering my "beliefs" would label me a heretic. I consider myself a "first century" Christian, and I sometimes wonder if people nowadays have lost sight of what it means to follow God in the light of how the world functions day to day. But that is neither here or there for now, I can elaborate on my own personal "feelings" and beliefs another time.
I go back to my original post. Is there anyone here who can debate the stronger questions of faith? Let me iterate that if you are naive enough to suggest that "Jesus" is the answer to every question, than you are better off not engaging me in spiritual debate. I will undermine your faith, and that is not my intention.
I have spent my life searching for reasons not to believe, and I think I have come up with compelling arguments. Personally, I can think of several people that I have led away fom God, by bringing up my differing point of view. I am not interested in "disproving" the existence of God, so I don't need any atheists or agnostics to rally to my "cause". If you think so, you will be disappointed, as I can argue as easily for the case of God versus against. When push comes to shove, belive me, GOD IS REAL.
But what about my questions? So far I have not seen anyone who is both willing and able to engage is serious discussion.
URForgiven, please do not come back. You are not ready for this.
RC, if I just tossed questions out there, I think I would probably get tossed off Crosswalk and not allowed back. I am not looking for trouble, I am looking for answers. I can destroy faith, I have done it in the past and I can do it again. That is not what I want to accomplish. I need answers, and so far I have not found good ones, and that is tearing my own faith asunder. My family is suffering because I cannot be the spititual head that I am required to be.
What I would like to do is to pick out individuals here for personal debate and sounding. Little1, you so far seem the most ready. ICERapture, I am not a "Humanist" nor do I entertain the notions of such lukewarm philosophy. I do believe in absolute right and wrong, and I suggest you look into the same. Humans are not the be all end all of God's creation, God's creation itself is that, or He would have made us before everything else. That is not to say we are not the most vital part of Creation, just the one that matters most to us, since we are the ones who are in the best position to question our very existence.
God does not need to question our existence, since He alone knows why He made us. We can only speculate, and to go beyond that suggests of arrogance only humans are capable of, or fallen angels depending how you "choose" to look at it.
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/28/2008 4:39:37 AM
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PureLight
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That's all well and fine but dang, the "you are not ready for this." bit screams pride. You on your own can not destroy faith, if your questions "do so", then that faith wasn't well-tempered in the first place. Faith comes from God.
I think, yes, you deserve answers, but you're going to have to be able to trust in God on some things.
You're going to have to ask those questions if we're to be of any help answering them, I do have to say.
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/28/2008 9:03:33 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5668
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EFLin
I don't choose my "religion" because it allows me to "remain open minded". I am open minded, therefore I choose my religion. My "religion" is Christianity, although not as such as many here might recognize it.
It matters not if folks on the forum recognize your "style" of Christianity or not ; it matters if God does.
What a person must be to be Christian is plainly laid out in the New Testament, and there is no other way.
quote:
. My family is suffering because I cannot be the spititual head that I am required to be.
I totally disagree that you "Cannot" be what is required of you to be a Christian. That ability is given to every man.
It is really not "Rocket science", we have a choice to choole Christ or the flesh; and we all either live or die by that choice. Scripture is very plain concerning this;
(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(Joh 3:17) For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
(Joh 3:18) He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
(Joh 3:20) For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
As I said, it is not rocket science; simply a choice; God spoke of this choice many years ago and it is still relevant today;
(Deu 30:19) I call Heaven and earth to record today against you. I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore, choose life, so that both you and your seed may live,
I wish you well in your quest.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 9/28/2008 9:16:28 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/28/2008 10:00:34 AM
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URForgiven
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Without fail, when a person claims to be "open minded" it simply means that their mind is open to everything and anything but God. A mind is never truly open until it is open to the Truth that is Jesus Christ.
It just ain't that complicated my friend...
2 Corinthians 11:3
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
When you come to the end of yourself EFLin, there you will find God. I pray along with the Apostle Paul that you may...
Ephesians 3:19
"know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God."
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/28/2008 4:43:18 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
So far I have not seen anyone who is both willing and able to engage is serious discussion.
Well, if all you do is continue on and on about how terrifying and faith-destroying your questions are, and never actually start a discussion, then of course you won't find anyone.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/28/2008 6:53:34 PM
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misty35
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Joined: 9/22/2008
From: Arkansas
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EFlin,
I just want to make myself very clear from the get go, Im not here for a debate, I clearly come to this forum to be united with other believers in Christ, for prayer, friendship and to help those in need. If you were truly coming here for answers, it would be different, but I feel deep down that you are here to try to destroy peoples faith, and its threads like yours that need to be removed. To even make a statement as you did about if people believe that Jesus is the answer to every question, then its better off to not engage with you in a spiritual debate! What?? You even admit, when push comes to shove that you believe in God, but you have led people away from God!! I hope and pray, that if there are any new Christians here, that they dont read this thread and they dont engage with you in this so called "debate" that you have mentioned twice.
I do hope you remember this EFlin, God tells us, that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that HE IS GOD, and at that very moment, there will be no DEBATE!
Im not here to argue with you, and I wont argue with you, but if you want answers, go to the BIBLE. You are in my prayers.
Your Friend,
Misty
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RE: What can I believe in? - 9/28/2008 11:20:27 PM
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misty35
Posts: 614
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From: Arkansas
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Eflin,
I must ask you a few questions. You stated, "If you are naive enough to suggest that Jesus is the answer to every question, then you are better off not engaging me in spiritual debate." I wont argue with you, but I would really like for you to respond to these questions.
Who is Jesus Christ to you? No Scripture, in your own words, what does He mean to you? And what does His death mean to you? What does the Cross mean to you?
Im just a little curious about these questions, they are not to offend you in any way, but you came to this forum, very bold I must say, and warning people about what they shouldnt do. I want to believe that you are here for answers, and not here to lead people away from Christ, to place doubt or to harm anyones faith, so thats why I asked the questions that I did.
Your Friend,
Misty
You are in my prayers.
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RE: What can I believe in? - 10/5/2008 2:01:43 AM
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EFLin
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misty35, I am glad to read your response. It is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for. To answer your first response, I assure you I did not come here to "destroy" anyone's faith. Were that my intention, I believe I already would have done so before the Crosswalk administraters had a chance to get rid of everything I posted and banned me from coming back. THAT IS NOT WHAT I WANT. What I want are answers, not necessarily to the questions I have (even though that would be great). The best I am hoping for, however, are individuals strong enough in their faith to challenge me to see things from points of view I may not have considered.
In response to your questions: Jesus Christ to me is the physical manifestation of God on earth. Since we as sinful humans could never hope to be in a position where we could be righteous before God, He took it upon Himself to redeem us, by sacrificing His very Self. We are THAT important to Him. To me that means that God believes I have value, and that all of humanity is vital to Him, as His creation. And that He is willing to sacrifice everything, anything, so that I can understand that.
Honestly I didn't come here to tell people what they should or shouldn't do. The truth is, I have become gunshy. I have gone to other Christians and asked some difficult questions. Most have said they don't have the answers, but a few have walked away from God because their faith wasn't strong enough to stand up to hard scrutiny. I do not want that on my conscience any more.
Unfortunately, most of the believers I have met in my life fall in the "naive" category. A lot of them I met at the Bible College I attended (now called Cincinnati Christian University). They grew up in the church, around other believers, and haven't spent much time out in the world where faith has no place (according to the world). I have spent a lot of time in my life working and interacting with some very unsavory elements. In that time, while searching for reasons to believe, I was bombarded by and thought up many reasons NOT to believe.
I will confess that faith has never been a strength of mine (in case you had not noticed), being raised on a Catholic family, renouncing God and becoming an Atheist at the age of 7, and giving my life (tentatively) to Christ at the age of 17.
I WANT to believe. But there are a few things standing in the way of me. Tomorrow my family and I will be going to a church we used to go to a few years ago. We stopped going because the teaching was kind of weak, but I hear the small groups are pretty good. Also, my son is showing an interest in Jesus, and I don't want to discourage that, in spite of my own difficulties. I will definitely seek answers there, if I can find anyone to talk to about them there.
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RE: What can I believe in? - 10/5/2008 2:09:44 AM
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EFLin
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PopsiLufsJesus, the answer is yes. Definitely yes. But be careful who you ask and how hard you dig for answers, and WHERE you dig.
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RE: What can I believe in? - 10/5/2008 2:20:44 AM
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EFLin
Posts: 8
Joined: 9/14/2008
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RC, I will tell you one thing that matters. You can throw all the Scripture you want at a problem, but if the ones you are talking to do not believe in the authority of the Bible, you are only blowing hot air at them.
My faith is in God, not in the Bible. Only Jesus can save, not the New Testament. A book is not my god of choice.
It is even more so for individuals outside of the Christian faith. To many of them it is no more than a book of myths and legends, and you appear a fool for trying to argue a point of view based on it.
But I confess, I am arrogant, and know only of my own experiences. So that is what I will make my discussions from. I apologize for any offense you may take from me, whether I intend it or not.
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RE: What can I believe in? - 10/5/2008 3:53:15 AM
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Little_1
Posts: 1488
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EFlin, you say that you do not believe the Bible is the authoritive Word of God; however, when asked about who Jesus is "in your own words", you quote the following:
quote:
ORIGINAL: EFlin
In response to your questions: Jesus Christ to me is the physical manifestation of God on earth. Since we as sinful humans could never hope to be in a position where we could be righteous before God, He took it upon Himself to redeem us, by sacrificing His very Self. We are THAT important to Him. To me that means that God believes I have value, and that all of humanity is vital to Him, as His creation. And that He is willing to sacrifice everything, anything, so that I can understand that.
I have to be honest, I find I find it interesting that you have arrived at this understanding regarding Jesus despite not believing in the Divine authority of the Word (i.e. the Bible aka 'Word of God'). How did you come to this belief if separate from the Word? 
I am surrounded by electrical equipment in my study and I don’t fully understand how it works, but I just know that it does. It will not cease to work because I don’t fully understand it (thankfully). Nor do I disregard it because I don't understand it. Faith in God and His Word is a bit like this. I don’t fully understand everything about the Word but I believe the Word is a precious gift we have which reveals Who God is and everything we need to know to live our lives according to His will.
I trust the Bible is inspired and has God's authority throughout it from beginning to end; however, that is not to say that there are not things in the Word which I don’t understand! Biblical trust (which is a gift from God) means that I don’t have to understand everything in the Word to know in my heart that it is true. I have also found that the Word is the most reliable means of testing everything against to find out what is from God and what is not and I find it really reliable.
Even if there were not countless millions of others who can testify to the same, this would not deter me because I cannot deny the way the Holy Spirit guides me through the Word. In fact, concerning this thread, the Word gives me guidance because it tells me that anyone who is opposed to the Word is in fact setting themselves up in direct opposition to God because God IS the Word. From what I can understand of your beliefs - this may not duly concern you. I cannot say I am not concerned for you however and will do as the Word teaches regarding my concerns.
In the meantime, take care for now and I look forward to reading your response to my question regarding how you came to believe what you do about Jesus separate from the Word? 
Little_1
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 10/5/2008 11:48:28 AM >
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RE: What can I believe in? - 10/5/2008 11:43:08 AM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3787
Joined: 1/9/2007
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EFlin, I agree with you, that you do come off as arrogant, but I'm taking you at your word. That you do have questions. That you are looking for answers.
I'll tell you right now, that you can not shake my faith, and I think the same is true of a lot here. The only way you could do that is if the Lord allowed you to do it, and He said no one can take us out of His hand.
A lot of things you say seem contradictory to me:
You say you can speak for or aginst God. Why would a christian want to?
You say you gave "your life (tentatively) to Christ at the age of 17."
There is no "tentatively" with God. Either you did or you didn't. God knows your heart.
You say "My faith is in God, not in the Bible. Only Jesus can save, not the New Testament. A book is not my god of choice." Agreed, only Jesus can save. But the Bible is the inspired word of God. It teaches us about the Lord and how He wants us to live. If we don't have the Holy Spirit within us it is foolishness, but if we do, the Holy Spirit will help us to learn, and to understand, and to grow.
There is head knowedge and there is heart knowedge.
If you are truely here to seek answers, start asking your questions.
Now I need to get ready for church. I will look for your questions when I get back.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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