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What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 1:58:21 PM
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jonfortean6
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Here's the thread. Let's start talking. (I have to start researching, lol)
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 2:23:02 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jonfortean6
Here's the thread. Let's start talking. (I have to start researching, lol)
Because I believe Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) is in essence the Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of Adonai), I would say in general blaspheme of Ruach Ha Chedosh is the same as blaspheme of Adonai Elohiem. The only difference is each of these names refers to a different characteristic of Adonai. Blasphemy of Adonai Eloiheim involves denighing Adonai's omnipotence. In the same way blasphemy of Ruach Ha Chedosh speaks to a denial of John 4:24 "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Therefore, I would say that those who denigh the indwelling of Adonai's Spirit and personal revelation out of hand are commiting blaspheme of Ruach Ha Chedosh. If one rejects Adonai's indwelling Spirit and His revelation, that one can not possibly be among Adonai's chosen.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 2:25:41 PM
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JimboFletch
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Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, according to Jesus, is attributing miracles of the Holy Spirit to Satan.
It may sound pious to call rejecting the Gospel a way to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but it is adding to both what the Lord said and its contextual meaning.
Calling rejection of the Gospel the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a manipulative and modern day claim of some unlearned evangelists and preachers - probably borrowed from a pseudo-theologian they heard on radio years ago. It sounds good to anyone unwilling to study the scripture on the subject, but it is definitely twisting the scripture.
I heard the same ear-tickling claim that rejecting the Gospel is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit quite a number of years ago but had to discount it once I read the Lord's words in context on the matter.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 2:27:20 PM
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jonfortean6
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quote:
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, according to Jesus, is attributing miracles of the Holy Spirit to Satan.
Can you tell me the passage where He says that?
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 2:32:20 PM
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JimboFletch
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Read Matthew 12 to get the whole context and why Jesus made the statement.
Vs. 31-32:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 2:38:58 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, according to Jesus, is attributing miracles of the Holy Spirit to Satan.
I agree with you Jimbo. The religious leaders, scribes...went as far as to say that he had an unclean spirit when in fact He operated under the unction and power of the Holy Ghost. He taught the Torah and did soo many notable signs and miracles (and the still sought for more signs) and yet they said He had an unclean spirit. Matt. 12:22-37, Mark 3:22-30, and Luke 11:14-23
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 2:45:16 PM
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dyluck
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Well... I agree With JimboFletch in the sense of blaming the acts of the holy spirit on Satan. We do know though, that satan can mimic many miricles and that is one of the reasons it says in 1 John to test the spirit.
I was reading this http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq307.html
It takes the side that blasphemeing the holy spirit was a constant rejection of Jesus Christ even though they saw the miracles. But then how is this true when we see Paul who was completely against the work of Jesus to almost a fault until Jesus came to Paul and straigtened him out... So I would say that denying christ without knowing the truth is to simply not accept salvation and will go to hell anyway.
I think Blaspheming the holy spirit can be attributed to a believer or someone who has seen the truth yet still denys him as well. I don't think Paul fell in this category.
We see this in practice described in 2 Thessalonians 2:9:12 about the end times.
"9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."
Would you agree, that blaspheming could be a number of things including Falsely judging the work of the holy spirit (which could lead to a stumbling brother). And denying christ even though you know 100% the truth.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 2:51:36 PM
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dyluck
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Actually, I noticed something... It doesnt say "know the truth"
it says "love the truth" much different!
what is your take on what he means there? - Please also read my last post first.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 2:54:24 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
And denying christ even though you know 100% the truth.
No.
Despite the desire to exempt him, Paul denied & strongly rejected Christ's claim of Messiah and actively tried to destroy the new Church. Many people, men like C.S. Lewis, rejected the Gospel publicly for years before being gloriously saved. If the theory that denial (or rejection), even extended & repeated denial, = blasphemy then many, many of the born again were disqualified.
That kind of armchair theology is similar to the bad eschatology floating around today. Somebody thought it up, sounded good to another, then people started forcing scripture into their theory.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 2:57:12 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Actually, I noticed something... It doesnt say "know the truth"
it says "love the truth" much different!
what is your take on what he means there? - Please also read my last post first.
That might be fine for another thread but it has no direct tie with this one. Matthew 12 is the main chapter of this topic.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 3:05:08 PM
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jonfortean6
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Okay, I read the chapter, but I still don't see where you draw the conclusion that Jesus is saying whoever contributes the work of the Spirit to Satan. When Jesus says, "Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven of him," He is talking about people who reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I'm just saying that I believe rejecting the Holy Spirit's convicting us of our need for a Savior, we are blaspheming him. We are blaspheming His work. Does that make sense? If not, please let me know.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 3:21:21 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jonfortean6
Okay, I read the chapter, but I still don't see where you draw the conclusion that Jesus is saying whoever contributes the work of the Spirit to Satan. When Jesus says, "Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven of him," He is talking about people who reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I'm just saying that I believe rejecting the Holy Spirit's convicting us of our need for a Savior, we are blaspheming him. We are blaspheming His work. Does that make sense? If not, please let me know.
Leading up to the statement, Jesus, in the power of the Holy Spirit, cast out a demon. The Pharisees declared Jesus cast out demons by the power of Satan (Beelzebul). Jesus replied that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven.
That's whole context. Adding more to that is speculating and adding to the Lord's teaching.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 3:21:54 PM
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LBolt
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Read verse 24 of Matt. 12 and verse 22 and 30 of Mark 3.
quote:
He is talking about people who reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I'm just saying that I believe rejecting the Holy Spirit's convicting us of our need for a Savior, we are blaspheming him. We are blaspheming His work. Does that make sense? If not, please let me know.
Jimbo gave the answer so beautifully it bears repeating: quote:
...Paul denied & strongly rejected Christ's claim of Messiah and actively tried to destroy the new Church. Many people, men like C.S. Lewis, rejected the Gospel publicly for years before being gloriously saved. If the theory that denial (or rejection), even extended & repeated denial, = blasphemy then many, many of the born again were disqualified
Blasphemy of the Ruach HaChodesh (Holy Spirit) will not be forgiven.
Read those verses again and post what you think.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 3:25:18 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jonfortean6
....I'm just saying that I believe rejecting the Holy Spirit's convicting us of our need for a Savior, we are blaspheming him. We are blaspheming His work. Does that make sense? If not, please let me know.
I've already mentioned that if that opinion is correct, then anyone ever introduced to the Gospel and rejected it cannot be forgiven at a later time. And every person who claims to have received Christ after the second or more times of being convicted is a liar and doomed for eternity.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 3:43:20 PM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jonfortean6
....I'm just saying that I believe rejecting the Holy Spirit's convicting us of our need for a Savior, we are blaspheming him. We are blaspheming His work. Does that make sense? If not, please let me know.
I've already mentioned that if that opinion is correct, then anyone ever introduced to the Gospel and rejected it cannot be forgiven at a later time. And every person who claims to have received Christ after the second or more times of being convicted is a liar and doomed for eternity.
I dissagree JimboFletch. The context that i hope johnfotean6 is talking about is not simply rejecting the newly introduced Gospel but knowing the truth (it is apparent as truth to you) then still denying it. The person who just hears it, how can that be "truth" to them?
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 3:48:09 PM
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jonfortean6
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quote:
I'm just saying that I believe rejecting the Holy Spirit's convicting us of our need for a Savior, we are blaspheming him. We are blaspheming His work. Does that make sense? If not, please let me know.
I apologize, I don't think I was clear on what I meant. What I meant is if someone ultimately rejects the work of the Holy Spirit: if he or she dies having rejected His convicting of sin.
quote:
Leading up to the statement, Jesus, in the power of the Holy Spirit, cast out a demon. The Pharisees declared Jesus cast out demons by the power of Satan (Beelzebul). Jesus replied that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven.
Notice in Matthew 12 that Jesus does not say the statement about the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit directly after the Pharisees accused Him. He talks about the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit after verse 30, which says, "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad." After He says this, He says "Therefore..." Now remember, we have to see what the Therefore is there for. I believe that he is saying "Therefore..." in conclusion to verse 30.
There are other arguments that I have about this, but unfortunately I don't remember them offhand and I will have to look them up. But I will look for them.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 3:50:33 PM
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jonfortean6
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quote:
I dissagree JimboFletch. The context that i hope johnfotean6 is talking about is not simply rejecting the newly introduced Gospel but knowing the truth (it is apparent as truth to you) then still denying it. The person who just hears it, how can that be "truth" to them
Yes, and there is a verse in the Bible that talks about how God will not forgive those people. I have to find it though(I could never be a Pastor, I'd probably forget what my sermon was about the day I had to deliver it).
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 4:09:23 PM
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LBolt
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But notice in verse 30 of Mark says, Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. This is along after He explains blaspheming the Holy Ghost. Matther 12:25-32 is in response to the pharisees saying that He casted out devils through Beelzebub. In fact verse 33-42 is also along the same vein. Some one said it as well, they knew He was Messiah and sought to injure Him and the Ruach with their words...IOW, they willfully rejected the one they knew was the Messiah and attributed His works to the devil.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 4:13:02 PM
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dyluck
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quote:
I could never be a Pastor, I'd probably forget what my sermon was about the day I had to deliver it
I feel the same sometimes! I can remember a verse by its contents, but i always have to look up the passage! LOL Thank the lord for biblegateway.com!
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 4:15:01 PM
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jonfortean6
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quote:
But notice in verse 30 of Mark says, Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. This is along after He explains blaspheming the Holy Ghost. Matther 12:25-32 is in response to the pharisees saying that He casted out devils through Beelzebub. In fact verse 33-42 is also along the same vein. Some one said it as well, they knew He was Messiah and sought to injure Him and the Ruach with their words...IOW, they willfully rejected the one they knew was the Messiah and attributed His works to the devil.
I agree with all of this, except for the " and attributed His works to the devil." I believe that someone can attribute Jesus works to the devil and be blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but I don't believe that attributing Jesus works to the devil is the key to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I believe that someon can blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and not even know who Satan is.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 4:20:46 PM
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jonfortean6
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quote:
Thank the lord for biblegateway.com!
Lol, that's better news than when a baptist finds out it's dinner time!
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 4:22:29 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jonfortean6
I apologize, I don't think I was clear on what I meant. What I meant is if someone ultimately rejects the work of the Holy Spirit: if he or she dies having rejected His convicting of sin.
I'll agree that if someone rejects the Gospel until they die, then they're going to spend eternity in hell. But that does not fit the meaning of blasphemy, much less the passage.
Perhaps it will help if we look at the meaning of the word:
blaspheme: To commit blasphemy; to speak against God or religious doctrine.
It's not an action (or lack of action) or attitude so much as it is giving voice to contempt or utter disrespect to God.
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RE: What is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? - 9/18/2008 4:28:34 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
We all know there will be a counterfit Christ in the end times. We know His miricles are from the devil. Now someone who doesn't really know and may be deceived for fear that it really is Christ and that he would be blaspheming the holy spirit won't test his spirit and follow it.
First of all, Jesus' sheep know His voice and aren't deceived by the counterfeit. Secondly, I'm not expecting to be around when the Antichrist is deceiving the world.
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