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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/17/2008 10:09:44 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1341
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
The problem is that the people who make less than a certain amount per year actually ending up paying $0 in tax by the end of the year, because they get whatever federal taxes they paid back as a refund. So when the Dems come along and promise tax relief to the "poor", there isn't anything to "relieve".
exactly. that's MY POINT...
now, maybe it's because I have 3 dependent children.....and, I get a decent "tax break" because of them.....but, for the past 5 or so years, I have about $1600 or so "withheld", and can pretty much count on getting ALL OF THAT back. Almost to the penny. THUS, in the end, paying $0 in taxes.....and, I am sure I am not the only one....with a solidly "middle class income" in the same situation...
and, you hit the nail on the head.....the Dems are promising "tax relief to people where there isn't ANY needed.....
like promising the people of South Florida......that they will give EVERYONE big PARKAS to keep them warm for the winter....just to get elected!
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/17/2008 10:22:11 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1445
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
July 11??? That's over half the year. Wikipedia has it as Apr 23, 2008 for the average and the latest state-specific date as May 3 for Connecticut.
The July date includes fees like car registration, and things like sales and property taxes. It's not just income tax.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/17/2008 10:22:22 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1961
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
The problem is that the people who make less than a certain amount per year actually ending up paying $0 in tax by the end of the year, because they get whatever federal taxes they paid back as a refund. So when the Dems come along and promise tax relief to the "poor", there isn't anything to "relieve".
exactly. that's MY POINT...
now, maybe it's because I have 3 dependent children.....and, I get a decent "tax break" because of them.....but, for the past 5 or so years, I have about $1600 or so "withheld", and can pretty much count on getting ALL OF THAT back. Almost to the penny. THUS, in the end, paying $0 in taxes.....and, I am sure I am not the only one....with a solidly "middle class income" in the same situation...
You may not be the only one, but I really don't know of anybody else in this situation unless you make far less than I assume you do.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/17/2008 10:28:08 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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The bottom 50% of tax payers pay only pay in 3.97% of all income taxes.
There are MANY who don't pay a dime in income tax. MANY get EIC which means they get money back from the government and did not pay a dime in!
I pay in Federal personal income tax alone...in the six figures. Give me an income tax break and I will expand my business and hire more employees.
Take MORE money from me and I have no reason to put my family at "risk" by expanding my business or holding on to certain employees. I will take my initial investment out of the work place and put in it a CD and go fishing.
EDIT: I used old stats for the figure up top. In 2006 the bottom 50% of tax payers only paid 2.99% of all federal income tax collected. Cheap living for a lot of folks if you ask me. Someone is paying to keep this country safe and running.
< Message edited by P31W -- 9/17/2008 10:42:54 AM >
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/17/2008 10:52:51 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
How on earth do you pay $0 in taxes? Because I want your accountant. I know what you do; I can guess at how much you get paid and my wife and I combined probably make about what you do (within 20%) and there's no way we come close to paying $0 income tax.
-Dan.
He has three children.
He probably get's to deduct for mortage interest payments
He probably gives a tithe (10% of his gross income) or more to his church if I am remembering his post corretly in other threads.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/17/2008 10:57:17 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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ManimalX,
When you use the term "federal income tax" are you including into that figure soc.sec. and medicare?
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/17/2008 12:57:27 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 628
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
ManimalX,
When you use the term "federal income tax" are you including into that figure soc.sec. and medicare?
I hope not since they don't show up on a Form 1040 anywhere; what does show up is the Self-Employment Tax for those of us that are blessed enough to have created our own jobs
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/17/2008 1:16:48 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
I liked Dubya's check better. We all got new tv's and computers at wal-mart. Obama only wants to give us the money to buy toasters? :X
It's not "Dubya's check", it's your own money given back to you.
Actually this isn't always the case. I know several families in the low income bracket who, with the Earned Income Credit, got back more money than they paid in. Add to that the $600 + $300 for each child and they definitely got paid from the government. Where or from who I should say, did that money come from? You and me!
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/17/2008 10:11:57 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1961
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
EDIT: I used old stats for the figure up top. In 2006 the bottom 50% of tax payers only paid 2.99% of all federal income tax collected. Cheap living for a lot of folks if you ask me. Someone is paying to keep this country safe and running.
These numbers don't mean anything without some sort of context. What percentage of the total income did that bottom 50% earn?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/17/2008 10:52:54 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1966
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Wow! Just when I was beginning to worry how I was going to afford that $12 for a new toaster. Where do I get in line?
Wait a minute, let me re-read that...
quote:
to be able to go out and buy a toaster, to employ people.”
Is he saying I have to buy a toaster in order to employ people???? I can't have employees if I can't give them toast? Is that a new law?
Biden studied Keynesian economics. He believes that the economy is driven by demand. If you give people money, they will save some of it, but also go out and spend some of it, too. That spending bubbles up to help run factories that make consumer goods and make money for shareholders.
If you own stock in an American auto company, you want tax cuts for the middle class. If you own stock in a high-end auction house, you want tax cuts for the rich. Note that the auto companies employ more people per dollar of revenue than the auction house. Thus, tax cuts for the middle class will do a better job of reducing unemployment than tax cuts for the rich.
Still, the best thing we can do is just not give tax cuts to anybody and start paying down our $10 Trillion debt. It will be painful in the midst of a recession, but it has to be done.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 12:16:34 AM
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rgsoundguy
Posts: 398
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Wow! Just when I was beginning to worry how I was going to afford that $12 for a new toaster. Where do I get in line?
Well now you can splurge and get that $30 toaster oven! Maybe you can even get that gizmo that makes egg mcmuffins or something.
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 7:43:54 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
These numbers don't mean anything without some sort of context. What percentage of the total income did that bottom 50% earn?
-Dan.
What they earn is nothing more in my opinion than what they were worth to society. I want to compare them to the top earners in their ability to work longer hours, be diligent, be prudent, frugil, wise and persistant. These are traits that we need to examine before we yell they are rich they need to pay for the one who has less. More than likely they have less because they did less with the little God did bless them with.
God tells us in his word that if you are unfaithful in little matters (such as the use of someone elses money) then you WILL be unfaithful with more.
True example, My husband and I have never owned a personal vehicle that cost us more than $13,000.00. And we ONLY paid that much for 1 after our next worth was over a million dollars, we had not debt, (including our home and business), we had our retirment accounts fully maxed out, and we had enough money in the bank to pay cash for it without missing the money and so on. We ate out for the first time in over a year to celebrate our 25th wedding anniv. this past month. It cost us $40.00 ALL other meals I make from scratch at home. We also have our own pond for fish, hunt for meat and grow our own vegatibles. We have not take a vacation in over 3 years and have only been on 5 our entire married life. About two years ago? we decided we didn't need a computer or internet expense for personal use so we ditched it. We get up at 4 am every moring other than Sunday and are at job sites by 6 am. We work on Saturdays every "chance" we have. (we view it as a blessing from God to have work and being wasteful if we don't "hit it" while the sun is shining)
Our household cost us $35,000 per year to operate. That includes vechilce repairs for our old clunkers, gifts to family and friends and 757.00 per month to BCBS and any out of pocket cost for our medical bills. It also includes any financial and legal advise we may need in our "personal life".
With money we earned we always gave to the Good Lord first the best part of our earnings a tithe and more even when we made little money. Then we payed our taxes, put money into investments and lived on as little as we could so that "our son" would have a better life. So that "we" would not be a burden to others.
We made money the exact same way that most wealth people in this country makes it. We work harder and smarter than most and then the Good Lord blessed our efforts. Without him there would be no opportunity to work hard.
Now you tell me why I need to pay more to live in this country than the person who works 40 hours per week, takes vacations, eats out, does not make wise use of their time and drives more expensive vehicles than I do?
(Pick up a copy of the book "The Millionaire Next Door". It is the most honest book I have ever read concerning how millionaires live and earn their money)
< Message edited by P31W -- 9/18/2008 8:06:56 AM >
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 7:46:21 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Still, the best thing we can do is just not give tax cuts to anybody and start paying down our $10 Trillion debt. It will be painful in the midst of a recession, but it has to be done
Believe it or not I agree with you. In this economy NO ONE needs a tax cut. We need to get our financial house in order. We need to suck it up, live within our means, work better, harder, smarter, longer and stop the bleeding before China controls us.
EVERYONE needs to sacrifice!!!!!
quote:
If you give people money, they will save some of it, but also go out and spend some of it, too.
Oh how I wish this was so!!!! Instead what I have seen is that when people are "given money" they tend to use all of it to put themselves into deeper debt. That's what I am living in my RL. People who made great incomes, had tons of money flowing in and are now hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in debt. Now the money stream has dried up and they are crying for help!
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 8:33:36 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1961
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
These numbers don't mean anything without some sort of context. What percentage of the total income did that bottom 50% earn?
-Dan.
What they earn is nothing more in my opinion than what they were worth to society. I want to compare them to the top earners in their ability to work longer hours, be diligent, be prudent, frugil, wise and persistant. These are traits that we need to examine before we yell they are rich they need to pay for the one who has less. More than likely they have less because they did less with the little God did bless them with.
<snip>
Where did this come from? I have nothing against rich people and with that question, I wasn't even arguing for a progressive tax system.
You stated that the bottom 50% of tax payers only pay 2.99% of federal income taxes. I asked what percentage of the wages they earn to get some kind of context. If that bottom 50% only makes 2.99% of the income, would it not make sense for them to pay 2.99% of the taxes? I realize that's not the case, but do you see the point I'm trying to make? Your comment only tells half of the story.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 8:46:18 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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This is from taxfoundation.org
I realize it does not answer your question concerning the 50% nor the amount of money those people earned. It does give you a hint about how so many taxpayers in this country pay "no" income tax and many get money back from the government in the form of EIC.
"For example, before accounting for refundable tax credits, the bottom 20 percent taxpayers shouldered 0.2 percent of the income tax burden while the top 20 percent of taxpayers paid roughly 79 percent. After receiving more than $28 billion in refundable credits, the bottom 20 percent of taxpayers is found to receive more than they pay, while the burden on the top 20 percent increased to nearly 84 percent. The chart also shows that the refundable credits reduce the tax burden for the second quintile to almost zero while increasing the tax burden for the third and fourth quintiles—though less dramatically than for the top income group.
Broadly speaking, the 42.5 million non-payers are:
Low-income: 97 percent earn less than $40,000 annually;
Young: 36 percent are younger than age 25 and 56 percent are younger than age 35;
Women and Unmarried: 54 percent are single women or female-headed households;
Part-Time Workers: 42 percent work part-time while just 20 percent work full-time but less than 50 weeks a year;
Benefit from Tax Credits: 34 percent claim the EITC while 50 percent claim the child credit.
In addition to these non-paying filers, roughly 15 million individuals and families earned some income in 2004 but not enough to be required to file a tax return. When these non-filers are added to the non-payers, they add up to 57.5 million income-earning households (sometimes referred to as tax units) who paid no income taxes last year.
Even 57.5 million is not the actual number of people because one tax return often represents several people. When all of the dependents of these income-producing households are counted, roughly 120 million Americans—40 percent of the U.S. population—are outside of the federal income tax system.
While some may applaud the fact that millions of low- and middle-income families pay no income taxes, there is a threat to the fabric of our democracy when so many Americans are not only disconnected from the costs of government but are net consumers of government benefits. The conditions are ripe for social conflict if these voters begin to demand more government benefits because they know others will bear the costs.
The Tax Foundation's 2005 Annual Survey of U.S. Attitudes on Tax and Wealth found that 59 percent of American adults said it is unfair that 42.5 million Americans pay no federal income taxes after deductions and credits, and that everyone should be required to pay some minimum amount to fund government"
End of copy.
Notice that 57.5 Million earn something but their tax liability is 0. That may "kinda" answer your question.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 9:07:39 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1961
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
I realize it does not answer your question concerning the 50% nor the amount of money those people earned. It does give you a hint about how so many taxpayers in this country pay "no" income tax and many get money back from the government in the form of EIC.
Actually, my questions about "no" taxes were specific to kernsfamily. I can easily see how a family of 6 with both parents making minimum wage would wind up paying no income tax. But I know what kernsfamily does for a living, and I think I have a ballpark estimate on how much he'd make doing that, and I still can't figure how he gets enough deductions to pay no federal income tax.
quote:
The Tax Foundation's 2005 Annual Survey of U.S. Attitudes on Tax and Wealth found that 59 percent of American adults said it is unfair that 42.5 million Americans pay no federal income taxes after deductions and credits, and that everyone should be required to pay some minimum amount to fund government"
FWIW, I don't necessarily disagree with this. What I do disagree with is the trickle-down economics typically pushed by the Republican party (or at least their devotion to it at the expense of other policies). I agree that it's one component of generating a healthy economy, but when corporate profits are outpacing real wages, the middle class is disappearing due to automation and offshoring, and the disparity between the wealthy/powerful and everybody else keeps growing, you have to wonder if giving more tax breaks and favors to the wealthy is really the best way to bolster the middle and lower classes.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 9:11:13 AM
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rhippie
Posts: 628
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Wow! Just when I was beginning to worry how I was going to afford that $12 for a new toaster. Where do I get in line?
Wait a minute, let me re-read that...
quote:
to be able to go out and buy a toaster, to employ people.”
Is he saying I have to buy a toaster in order to employ people???? I can't have employees if I can't give them toast? Is that a new law?
Biden studied Keynesian economics. He believes that the economy is driven by demand. If you give people money, they will save some of it, but also go out and spend some of it, too. That spending bubbles up to help run factories that make consumer goods and make money for shareholders.
But then the savings also "bubbles up" since that is where the funding for capital investment comes from when the owners/shareholders want to expand those same factories because of increased production requirements due to the increase in sales resultant from the people having more money to spend.
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 9:13:44 AM
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rhippie
Posts: 628
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Still, the best thing we can do is just not give tax cuts to anybody and start paying down our $10 Trillion debt. It will be painful in the midst of a recession, but it has to be done.
This would be the best thing we could do in any economy. If we were out of debt then we could reduce taxes since we would need less money to pay the bills; sadly if we keep electing career politicians that will never happen
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 9:21:59 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
the middle class is disappearing due to automation and offshoring
I don't believe this. Times have changed and the workers of America need to change with them. Medical, technology and so on have replaced those jobs that require little or not skill and/or education.
In my city HS graduates are guaranteed free tuition for 2 years at our local college "if" they maintain a "C" average those two years. There is not excuse for our citizens to not be educated enough to the point that they are able to provide for their own family and pay taxes.
New specialized jobs are now avaliable that were at one time non-existant. My husband and I could not have been in "some" of the businesses we are in today because "yesterday" they simply didn't exist.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 9:23:10 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
This would be the best thing we could do in any economy. If we were out of debt then we could reduce taxes since we would need less money to pay the bills; sadly if we keep electing career politicians that will never happen
AMEN!!!!! I wish the government was setting an example for it's citizens concerning wise money management!
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 9:27:48 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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On a side note just this week our local leaders were on TV crying that they need more funds for the police force. In that same news cast the SAME political leaders were showing off the NEW PLAYGROUND EQUIPTMENT at the local public park.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 10:02:05 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1266
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
On a side note just this week our local leaders were on TV crying that they need more funds for the police force. In that same news cast the SAME political leaders were showing off the NEW PLAYGROUND EQUIPTMENT at the local public park.
Which inevitably leads to one of the biggest Chicken Little tactics out there: "If we don't raise taxes, we will have to cut essential services!"
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Tax Cuts For Toasters...LOL! - 9/18/2008 10:07:03 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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Yep, yesterday they took away all the police protection from the courthouse. They had the media out there to record it. I rolled my eyes and realize who I won't be supporting next term instead working actively against. I am tired of these political games!!!!
They also promised a quarter of a million dollars to our local jr college for some job training program. To date they don't know where those funds will be found. I do. From those of us who pay taxes.
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The folks at Kelloggs, need jobs "created" there, too, by our "cool" Government, of course. 
