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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 9:25:35 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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Jimbo,
You didn't address the particular part of the Bible which directly addresses Capitalism. That passage demonstrates the true nature of Capitalism which is not our savior although people like Rush Limbaugh hold it up as a white knight against other '-ism's.
So rather than change the subject, maybe we ought to stay focused on how our economic system is teetering and how it could very well collapse when calamity comes upon it so that it finally ends up with people literally working all day for a measure of food.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 9:33:42 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Jimbo,
You didn't address the particular part of the Bible which directly addresses Capitalism. That passage demonstrates the true nature of Capitalism which is not our savior although people like Rush Limbaugh hold it up as a white knight against other '-ism's.
So rather than change the subject, maybe we ought to stay focused on how our economic system is teetering and how it could very well collapse when calamity comes upon it so that it finally ends up with people literally working all day for a measure of food.
A. I have nothing to do with Rush L. That's a strawman without relevance.
B. I prefer to focus on God's sovereignty and not fear and doom and gloom where Satan prefers us to reside.
C. I do not believe we are at the point of Revelation 18 - or even close to it.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 9:41:27 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
A. I have nothing to do with Rush L. That's a strawman without relevance.
No, Rush Limbaugh demonstrates how people can make Capitalism into a white knight.
Rush Limbaugh touts Capitalism as mankind's savior.
Jesus said we would have anti-Christs. Capitalism is one of those and Rush Limbaugh is evidence for me saying that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
B. I prefer to focus on God's sovereignty and not fear and doom and gloom where Satan prefers us to reside.
We are in the world. We are subject to Kings and Laws.
You can stay focused on God and that is good, but we don't live in the New Jerusalem.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
C. I do not believe we are at the point of Revelation 18 - or even close to it.
I did not say we were at Revelation 18 although 9-11 seven years ago came close.
The point is and remains -despite your protests- that Capitalism is not good.
Now, back to the matter at hand, the market shake-up demonstrates how insecure our financial institutions are. People are living in a house of cards and when it falls down, we will see the fruition of the third Seal when its full effect is upon us.
The point of the first four Seals is to bring the world to a boiling point so that the wicked turn to a beast for relief. The anti-Christ will promise peace and safety. What he will ultimately deliver will be anything but that.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 9:59:34 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
No, Rush Limbaugh demonstrates how people can make Capitalism into a white knight.
Your problem with Limbaugh is irrelevant. I have nothing to do with the man.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
B. I prefer to focus on God's sovereignty and not fear and doom and gloom where Satan prefers us to reside.
We are in the world. We are subject to Kings and Laws.
You can stay focused on God and that is good, but we don't live in the New Jerusalem.
I shake the dust of your philosophy from my feet! What a poor excuse for a teacher of the Word to declare that Sovereign God has lost control of this world and His redeemed are at the mercy of some world's system.
And if you think capitalism is the enemy, that further shows your inability to rightly divide the Word. No system, whether Roman imperialism, capitalism, communism, socialism, or medieval feudalism, is the enemy of Christ or Christianity. The enemy is sin, the enemy is Satan, the enemy are people preaching an incompetent God who cannot protect His redeemed.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 10:23:28 AM
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bob97
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I’ll say one thing for Rush Limbaugh’s support for Capitalism…in the middle of it all he continues to profess Jesus Christ and claims to be pro life…so say what you want.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 11:11:23 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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Fletch:
Whether you have anything to do with Limbaugh is beside the point.
Whether Limbaugh professes faith in Christ (which he does) is also beside the point.
The point is that anything that sets itself up as mankind's "savior" is against God.
There are many anti-Christs. I would put technology, the Green Movement and a host of others in there too.
So while our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against Princes and Principalities of this world; Capitalism is a wicked system which buys and sells the souls of men. Look at Communist China. They waste people in an unbridled pursuit of happiness - which as a statement in our founding documents is fully in support of this Godless system of Capitalism. "Pursuit of happiness" is a buzz word from the eigthteenth century relating to Adam Smith's advocacy for Capitalism and the wealth it would produce.
The Chinese even have a word for being worked to death by the factories: guolaosi.
Have you not learned the lesson of the Church of Laodicea? In our wealth we are naked. In our prosperity we turn our back upon God. It is in hard times that nominal Christians pray foxhole prayers. It is when we are reduced to nothingness that we see we need God. Those who live the good life are like the rich man in the Luke 16:19-31.
You made a personal attack against me which is not true. You painted me as the enemy of the people saying I preach "an incompetent God who cannot protect His redeemed," I will remind you that our salvation is NOT in material benefits!
I will also remind you that God is mighty to save and He will save us out of the Great Tribulation even though He has handed us over for persecution!
So before you tell me how wrong I am to "divide" the Word (and I take the whole of the Bible into my eschatology) why don't you get what I am saying right first.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 11:21:46 AM
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JimboFletch
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Capitalism is nothing more than a system whereby a person is free to barter goods and services for something of equal or greater value, usually money. It is a biblical system. Just because there are evil or greedy or even stupid people abusing the system no more invalidates capitalism than the fact that there are hypocrites and predator pretenders among Christians.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 11:33:21 AM
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upNORTder
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
If a stock market crash is a sign of the end, then that happened in 1929. The Dow did not return to pre-1929 levels until late 1954! This is a good point that shouldn't be overlooked in the current crisis. Right now the market has not slid so far that it is in the toilet, it only feels like it. Need I remind us all, in '96 people were saying that the DJIA would never hit 11,000 points... then it did so in 99. So right now, the economy has regressed to where it was under Clinton. So what happened? MHO, the 2006 mid-terms.
Adam
When Bill Clinton took office, the Dow was at 3300 (after the Bush 1 presidency). When Clinton left office, AFTER 8 YEARS, it was 10,700 or about what it is today (AFTER 8 YEARS of BUSH).
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 11:34:19 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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Capitalism is more that a free market. That has always been the case in the world. God gave us title to things. Ownership of property is a Biblical right.
Our government has recently stripped us our of Constitutional protection on property ownership now. Before they had to prove a public necessity to take your property. NOW they can do for the big money interests! If a developer (big money) can take a surburban block and build it so that it produces more tax revenue, the state now has the authority of the Supreme Court to take your property! THAT is Capitalism at work!
Capitalism is more than the free market. Capitalism is replacing man with machine in order to work more efficiently. Capitalism replaces people with things. People in a Capitalistic system are problems which have to be dealt with.
Capitalism favors robotic factories that don't need health care and retirement benefits. In Capitalism people are a problem which is best faced by outsourcing, and shipping jobs overseas and finally the outright elimination of labor.
Hypocrites and "predator pretenders" have nothing to do with this thread, but I see you have not apologized for calling me an enemy of the people.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 11:50:03 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Capitalism is more that a free market. That has always been the case in the world. God gave us title to things. Ownership of property is a Biblical right.
Our government has recently stripped us our of Constitutional protection on property ownership now. Before they had to prove a public necessity to take your property. NOW they can do for the big money interests! If a developer (big money) can take a surburban block and build it so that it produces more tax revenue, the state now has the authority of the Supreme Court to take your property! THAT is Capitalism at work!
Capitalism is more than the free market. Capitalism is replacing man with machine in order to work more efficiently. Capitalism replaces people with things. People in a Capitalistic system are problems which have to be dealt with.
Capitalism favors robotic factories that don't need health care and retirement benefits. In Capitalism people are a problem which is best faced by outsourcing, and shipping jobs overseas and finally the outright elimination of labor.
Hypocrites and "predator pretenders" have nothing to do with this thread, but I see you have not apologized for calling me an enemy of the people.
Much of your beef is with our Republic's form of government and big business, not capitalism.
[Edited by moderator - TOS 6]
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 9/17/2008 2:36:24 PM >
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 2:38:04 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Much of your beef is with our Republic's form of government and big business, not capitalism.
Big business is the epitome of Capitalism.
[edited by moderator to remove portion edited out of quoted post]
If you're not angry at some of the stuff that has been going on around this country lately, or some of the developments in this world - you're not paying attention or something else is wrong like being overtaken by apathy.
That, unfortunately, is a common component of the end. Even people in Jerusalem will not mourn the terrible things (the erection of the Abomination in the Temple and the Great Tribulation) that happen there.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 2:49:03 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
You are talking about industrialized production to increase profit. That is not capitalism.
Capitalism surpasses just private ownership.
Capitalism relies on Capital: money. Money buys buildings and equipment which allows for mass production.
Capitalism is fueled by greed.
Everything Capitalistic becomes a race to make goods cheaper and faster to gain market share and eventually be able to charge confiscatory prices.
The whole process is devoid of compassion. The only brake on Capitalism is Christianity. China has no moral foundation and there Capitalism is naturally predatory and one of its victims are people.
Remember while men care about their livelihood (sheep) and women about the finances (coin - how the family household "economics" used to operate) God cares about people.
Capitalism does not.
Capitalism led to the Industrial Revolution.
Capitalism makes war possible on a scale never seen before.
Capitalism does not care if people starve.
And as far as I'm concerned those are part and parcel with the first three spirits unleashed by God.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 3:01:21 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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That's great Wes. I'd say your business is an excellent reflection on Christian morals in practice.
However, what I am talking about are the monied interests behind the big buildings in our major cities. The people behind those organizations are not like you and me.
Getting back to the original post, this market crash is not the end, but it does demonstrate how market forces can cause financial woes for individuals. And as the world markets become more interconnected, those repercussions will be felt further and wider than ever before.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 4:07:31 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Much of your beef is with our Republic's form of government and big business, not capitalism.
Big business is the epitome of Capitalism.
[edited by moderator to remove portion edited out of quoted post]
If you're not angry at some of the stuff that has been going on around this country lately, or some of the developments in this world - you're not paying attention or something else is wrong like being overtaken by apathy.
That, unfortunately, is a common component of the end. Even people in Jerusalem will not mourn the terrible things (the erection of the Abomination in the Temple and the Great Tribulation) that happen there.
I appreciate your loving assessment that I'm ignorant, apathetic, and supportive of antichrist's abomination but, I assure you, my statements have been based on an understanding of capitalism, the Bible, and the other systems out there. Having visited a number of those other countries, I much prefer this one.
Do you have another preference?
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 7:59:19 PM
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prophet
Posts: 579
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
B. I prefer to focus on God's sovereignty and not fear and doom and gloom where Satan prefers us to reside.
We are in the world. We are subject to Kings and Laws.
You can stay focused on God and that is good, but we don't live in the New Jerusalem.
Well said! 
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 8:02:28 PM
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prophet
Posts: 579
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Capitalism is nothing more than a system whereby a person is free to barter goods and services for something of equal or greater value, usually money. It is a biblical system. Just because there are evil or greedy or even stupid people abusing the system no more invalidates capitalism than the fact that there are hypocrites and predator pretenders among Christians.
True! BUT the money in biblical times was gold and silver, not paper fiat. This is the deception brought in by men.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/17/2008 10:22:05 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 499
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I appreciate your loving assessment that I'm ignorant, apathetic, and supportive of antichrist's abomination...
Actually I said nothing of the kind particularily for you.
I did preface my remarks by saying "if."
That may or may not apply to you.
Other things could lend you to appreciate Capitalism, but as I get older, my image of Capitalism and this country of mine (which I served in the military) of which I was so proud has gradually changed. And for this transformation I credit my Bible study. I cringed when I saw the bumper stickers after 9-11 that said "Power of Pride" with the red-white-and-blue all over it and I still get shudders today when I see one.
So you may not be apathetic. You just may be one of the flag-waving masses which look at us as being the good guy, and compared to other nations, we are; but in light of God's perfection, I think America is the first beast of Daniel 7:4 and that in accordance with Rev 13:2 we will be part of the fourth terrible beast to come. All I have to do today to see how this might be realized is our participation in the Quartet and our "forcing" or "confirming" the Roadmap on Israel...
Being ignorant of what has been going on might be excused. I'm ignorant of a good many things. The point is that iron sharpens iron and I use these boards to help me correct the mistakes I make because I can't see when I'm wrong; I need someone else to point out my mistakes in eschatology.
But in no way did I say the you were supportive of the Abomination. That is in Ezekiel 9 and it will happen in Jerusalem.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Do you have another preference?
I'd say Jesus will work it out to my satisfaction during the Millennium but I won't be living under those rules on this earth by then.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/18/2008 5:12:53 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
True! BUT the money in biblical times was gold and silver, not paper fiat. This is the deception brought in by men.
Sigh... If it purchases goods and services, it's money.
Gold & silver has been used to make false idols, see anybody do that with paper?
Also, gold & silver has no intrinsic value, they are just metals. You see, this is the deception brought in by men.
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RE: Markets Crashing...? - 9/18/2008 5:24:34 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
Does this have anything at all to do with the end times?
Is it biblical what happened yesterday?
I think if every 5% swing in the markets was a sign of the end times, we would have had about 35 second comings by now.
I really wouldn't worry too much about this. Markets go up, and markets go down. Markets are one of the silliest inventions of mankind in some sense - a market price is the collective opinion of several million investors, none of whom has all the information they need to really know what something is worth.
I say this as an investment professional with a couple of decades worth of experience.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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