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RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold...

 
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RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 9:51:05 AM   
NoShow

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

Meanwhile, how do you all like owning an insurance company and a mortgage firm? In the next few weeks perhaps we'll all own some airlines?


At least they were smart enough not to take ownership of those auto companies.
Post #: 26
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 9:58:27 AM   
bzirk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoShow

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

Meanwhile, how do you all like owning an insurance company and a mortgage firm? In the next few weeks perhaps we'll all own some airlines?


At least they were smart enough not to take ownership of those auto companies.


Yeah, I guess there are some bright spots.

_____________________________

may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13

Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
Post #: 27
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 10:13:31 AM   
relady

 

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quote:

Clinton signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act.
He did and had he not, Congress would have over-ridden his veto and he would have been called obstructionist. All that being said, my opinion is that he should not have signed it.

That bill was NOT a bipartisan effort by any stretch of anyone's imagination. It was written and sponsored by three Republicans and it was strictly a Republican baby from the get-go.

Now our issue is what to do to fix it? And do you trust the guy who was in the Senate and voted FOR the bill to be the one to fix the mess he helped create? I don't.
Post #: 28
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 10:21:56 AM   
ayani


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc



If anything, I would argue that a lack of regulation is the root cause of the problem. I am concerned that the federal government may have to bail out a major money center bank sooner rather than later, which will make previous bail-outs look like a drop in the bucket. We could have prevented all of this by maintaining the Glass-Steagall act- passed with the wisdom of those who survived the Great Depression, which we foolishly repealed in 1998. I think the capital markets worked extremely well from 1945 until ~2000, and part of the reason we avoided a lot of major hiccups was the commonsense regulations that were put in place to help prevent a future depression.

Now that those regulations are gone, it is up to human beings to manage risk, and we tend to underestimate risk right at the top of the market. No matter how seriously we take it, we will probably keep taking scarier risks until the depression-era regulations are restored.


I think you're right.

If certain industries and companies are 'too big to fail' without seriously damaging the public good, then it logically follows that those industries need to be regulated by that society to make sure they don't do things that will make them fail. The free markets are great, but if indeed we've decided we can't afford for the free market to work (i.e. let AIG fail) then we have a responsibility to intervene and regulate these industries to make sure they don't fail. Our present practice of giving companies a free hand do whatever they feel like and, then using the taxpayers to bail-out the creditors to companies that make mistakes, doesn't work.

This is a very difficult issue. On the one hand the Bush administration is nationalizing companies on a pace that would make Hugo Chavez envious. On the other hand, what would have been the consequences to us ordinary people if we didn't nationalize them? Think about it: the federal government is now running the companies who issued or backed I believe 70% of the mortgages issued in the US last year, and the largest insurance company.
Post #: 29
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 10:34:20 AM   
NoShow

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: relady

quote:

Clinton signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act.
He did and had he not, Congress would have over-ridden his veto and he would have been called obstructionist. All that being said, my opinion is that he should not have signed it.

That bill was NOT a bipartisan effort by any stretch of anyone's imagination. It was written and sponsored by three Republicans and it was strictly a Republican baby from the get-go.

Now our issue is what to do to fix it? And do you trust the guy who was in the Senate and voted FOR the bill to be the one to fix the mess he helped create? I don't.


Congress has over-ridden less than 10% of the Presidential vetos. And somehow you know that they would have done it here?

By 1999 Clinton had been called a lot worse than "obstructionist".

And the Republicans were far short (in numbers) of the two-thirds needed to override.

< Message edited by NoShow -- 9/17/2008 10:46:56 AM >
Post #: 30
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 10:54:50 AM   
relady

 

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quote:

Congress has over-ridden less than 10% of the Presidential vetos. And somehow you know that they would have done it here?

By 1999 Clinton had been called a lot worse than "obstructionist".

And the Republicans were far short (in numbers) of the two-thirds needed to override.
This is history and not the problem at hand. The problem now is how to fix what has been broken. McCain voted FOR this bill and now he wants us to trust him to fix what he helped break. I'm thinking NO.
Post #: 31
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 11:14:53 AM   
bzirk


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It's common knowledge that public entities are beholden to their shareholders. Given that, I wonder if AIG will EVER pay back the 85B to the U.S. taxpayers.

The more important issue is whether or not the "shareholders" of the U.S. (namely China and some others) are more important than the U.S. taxpayers. I'm really starting to think the "shareholders" are more important since they are the ones holding the notes and not the U.S. taxpayer.

_____________________________

may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13

Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
Post #: 32
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 11:25:28 AM   
bob97


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John McCain tried to warn the country about Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae back in 2005 and pushed the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005.

quote:

Mr. President, this week Fannie Mae’s regulator reported that the company’s quarterly reports of profit growth over the past few years were “illusions deliberately and systematically created” by the company’s senior management, which resulted in a $10.6 billion accounting scandal.
The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight’s report goes on to say that Fannie Mae employees deliberately and intentionally manipulated financial reports to hit earnings targets in order to trigger bonuses for senior executives. In the case of Franklin Raines, Fannie Mae’s former chief executive officer, OFHEO’s report shows that over half of Mr. Raines’ compensation for the 6 years through 2003 was directly tied to meeting earnings targets. The report of financial misconduct at Fannie Mae echoes the deeply troubling $5 billion profit restatement at Freddie Mac.
The OFHEO report also states that Fannie Mae used its political power to lobby Congress in an effort to interfere with the regulator’s examination of the company’s accounting problems. This report comes some weeks after Freddie Mac paid a record $3.8 million fine in a settlement with the Federal Election Commission and restated lobbying disclosure reports from 2004 to 2005. These are entities that have demonstrated over and over again that they are deeply in need of reform.
For years I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac—known as Government-sponsored entities or GSEs—and the sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market. OFHEO’s report this week does nothing to ease these concerns. In fact, the report does quite the contrary. OFHEO’s report solidifies my view that the GSEs need to be reformed without delay.
I join as a cosponsor of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, S. 190, to underscore my support for quick passage of GSE regulatory reform legislation. If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.
I urge my colleagues to support swift action on this GSE reform legislation.



Oh and Bush also called for regulation of Fannie and Freddie in 2003 (Ny Times), but the Dems denied there was any problem.

_____________________________

The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
Post #: 33
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 11:28:59 AM   
bzirk


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Thank you, Bob.

And what has the Congress done during the last few years? What have they done to try to stem what was coming?

_____________________________

may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13

Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
Post #: 34
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 11:30:11 AM   
cow451


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Oh and Bush also called for regulation of Fannie and Freddie in 2003 (Ny Times), but the Dems denied there was any problem.


The GOP controlled both house of Congress then. How is it that the dems, even if they opposed regulatory change, get the blame for congressional inaction. And, His Excellency had yet to veto a single piece of legislation.

_____________________________

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Post #: 35
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 11:39:56 AM   
sylvan

 

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Why isn't anyone angry at the government?

Again, people fail to see beyond petty political beliefs. This is the classic case of greed - and the timeless battle between the "haves" vs. the "have-nots". The "haves" are comprised of Democrats and Republicans - when it comes to money/greed the names have no meaning. The names only have meaning to the "have-nots" that believe in their false image.

Americans should be outraged! But they never learn - they hang onto the false ideologies and images of the "kind politician" working for the people - meanwhile they're getting robbed. Americans give them a free pass??? In the wake of this mess, think about this one thing - not only are we bailing out these greedy/corruption institutions (yes with our money), in some cases we're sending the CEO's off with multimillion-dollar severance packages! Multimillion-dollar severance package! Talk about adding insult to injury, but the American people don't care! Americans make excuses for the CROOKS!? Why.


Yeah, I don't know how McCain is gonna fix it. He's part of the problem. He has supported deregulation at every opportunity and his economic philosophy largely led to this mess. It reminds me of McCain's involvement in the Keating Five scandal. Yet now he has the insights to fix it? The current situation has been looming for years - and it was clearly visible. People talked about it everyday, so could things have been minimized - could McCain or any of the other Democrats/Reppublicans done something? Sure. However the reality is, they are the "haves" - none of this affects them. You know, my parents can't retire anymore - the CEO's of these corrupt institutions that have been milking money from them for decades, they get Multimillion-dollar severance packages.
Post #: 36
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 11:49:34 AM   
bzirk


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I am mad at the government. I'm sick of them all (democrats and republicans). We are so in bondage to our creditors. It's sad.

Oh, I'm going to vote for McCain simply because he will not quite take us to socialism quite as quickly as Obama would. In other words, he's not going to do as much damage as Obama. But I don't kid myself that McCain is going to do great and wonderful things.

_____________________________

may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13

Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
Post #: 37
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 12:28:19 PM   
NoShow

 

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Joined: 5/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

I am mad at the government. I'm sick of them all (democrats and republicans).


Seriously. Don't you ever get the feeling they promote the whole Democrats and Republicans factor, so the general public spends all their time focusing on that; while the politicians as a whole go about with their hidden agenda?

And I don't mean in a conspiracy way, simply like a QB faking the hand off to the running back, than throwing the long bomb to the WR running down the sideline.
Post #: 38
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 12:36:33 PM   
NoShow

 

Posts: 460
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sylvan

Why isn't anyone angry at the government?

Again, people fail to see beyond petty political beliefs. This is the classic case of greed - and the timeless battle between the "haves" vs. the "have-nots". The "haves" are comprised of Democrats and Republicans - when it comes to money/greed the names have no meaning. The names only have meaning to the "have-nots" that believe in their false image.

Americans should be outraged! But they never learn - they hang onto the false ideologies and images of the "kind politician" working for the people - meanwhile they're getting robbed. Americans give them a free pass??? In the wake of this mess, think about this one thing - not only are we bailing out these greedy/corruption institutions (yes with our money), in some cases we're sending the CEO's off with multimillion-dollar severance packages! Multimillion-dollar severance package! Talk about adding insult to injury, but the American people don't care! Americans make excuses for the CROOKS!? Why.


Yeah, I don't know how McCain is gonna fix it. He's part of the problem. He has supported deregulation at every opportunity and his economic philosophy largely led to this mess. It reminds me of McCain's involvement in the Keating Five scandal. Yet now he has the insights to fix it? The current situation has been looming for years - and it was clearly visible. People talked about it everyday, so could things have been minimized - could McCain or any of the other Democrats/Reppublicans done something? Sure. However the reality is, they are the "haves" - none of this affects them. You know, my parents can't retire anymore - the CEO's of these corrupt institutions that have been milking money from them for decades, they get Multimillion-dollar severance packages.


I agree with almost all of this. Sure McCain can't fix this, but he probably has a better understand of the mess, than Obama, because of the Keating Five issue. But seriously, there's no one candidate that can "fix" this. Anyone that thinks there is, simply doesn't truly understand the problem.

Ironically, at this point, with all that's come up lately, I think we discarded Mit, a little to early.

From The Shooter (the Mark Wahlberg movie) "...There are no sides. There's no Sunnis and Shiites. There's no Democrats and Republicans. There's only HAVES and HAVE-NOTS."

Granted I don't think the situation is as extreme as the movie portrays, but there's probably a lot more truth to the quote than it's given weight to by the general public.
Post #: 39
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 12:36:35 PM   
sylvan

 

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Joined: 5/2/2008
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[
quote:

Seriously. Don't you ever get the feeling they promote the whole Democrats and Republicans factor, so the general public spends all their time focusing on that; while the politicians as a whole go about with their hidden agenda?

And I don't mean in a conspiracy way, simply like a QB faking the hand off to the running back, than throwing the long bomb to the WR running down the sideline.


Definately.
Post #: 40
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 12:52:41 PM   
sylvan

 

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quote:

I agree with almost all of this. Sure McCain can't fix this, but he probably has a better understand of the mess, than Obama, because of the Keating Five issue.


What? The Keating Five wasn't about experience - McCain was indicted with his 4 Democratic pals for corrupt practices. McCain took pay offs, allowing a fraudulent Saving and Loan to rob honest, hard working Amerians. I imagine there has been some payoffs in the midst of this current crisis - time will tell. What McCain has exerience with is fraud and lies - you think he's magically gonna do a 180 degree turn? I don't. You trust him??

McCain sure associates w/ a lot of Democrats like the Keating 5, like LIEberman. Of course, LIEberman is an "Independent" now. I think they're all "Independent's", if you know what I mean. Look at other Presidential candidate Bob Barr - democrat to republican to libertarian. No, I think it's very much like that movie.
Post #: 41
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 1:00:48 PM   
davemiller7


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I'm with you. I think the operative terms are "take us to socialism quite as quickly" and "he's not going to do as much damage as Obama."

-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

I am mad at the government. I'm sick of them all (democrats and republicans). We are so in bondage to our creditors. It's sad.

Oh, I'm going to vote for McCain simply because he will not quite take us to socialism quite as quickly as Obama would. In other words, he's not going to do as much damage as Obama. But I don't kid myself that McCain is going to do great and wonderful things.


_____________________________

-Dave

The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
Post #: 42
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 1:48:13 PM   
NoShow

 

Posts: 460
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sylvan

quote:

I agree with almost all of this. Sure McCain can't fix this, but he probably has a better understand of the mess, than Obama, because of the Keating Five issue.


What? The Keating Five wasn't about experience - McCain was indicted with his 4 Democratic pals for corrupt practices. McCain took pay offs, allowing a fraudulent Saving and Loan to rob honest, hard working Amerians. I imagine there has been some payoffs in the midst of this current crisis - time will tell. What McCain has exerience with is fraud and lies - you think he's magically gonna do a 180 degree turn? I don't. You trust him??

McCain sure associates w/ a lot of Democrats like the Keating 5, like LIEberman. Of course, LIEberman is an "Independent" now. I think they're all "Independent's", if you know what I mean. Look at other Presidential candidate Bob Barr - democrat to republican to libertarian. No, I think it's very much like that movie.


It was tongue-in-cheek.
Post #: 43
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 2:53:20 PM   
bob97


Posts: 1968
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quote:

The current situation has been looming for years - and it was clearly visible.


Sylvan...

As has been stated, regulations were working in the banking industry until 1999 when Clinton killed Glass-Steagall act.

And the Republicans never controlled congress…there were enough liberal Republicans from the east cost to prevent that.

These things will continue to occur as long as we elect a politician who’s every third word is a lie, just listen to Obama's spiel for awhile.

Bob

_____________________________

The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
Post #: 44
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 4:03:00 PM   
blessedinnyc

 

Posts: 1966
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

The current situation has been looming for years - and it was clearly visible.


Sylvan...

As has been stated, regulations were working in the banking industry until 1999 when Clinton killed Glass-Steagall act.

And the Republicans never controlled congress…there were enough liberal Republicans from the east cost to prevent that.

These things will continue to occur as long as we elect a politician who’s every third word is a lie, just listen to Obama's spiel for awhile.

Bob

Well, the repeal was sponsored by two Republicans from those liberal Republican "strongholds" of Iowa and Texas- Gramm and Leach, and done along party lines (with Republican support) in the senate. (Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley )

Rather than figuring out who's to blame, though, let's talk about how we can prevent this going forward. I'm generally a libertarian, but I think that in this case, it's in the government's best interest to make sure that potential mistakes made in investment banking don't affect FDIC-insured commercial banks. (I am in agreement with Thornton's comments on the repeal- that it might make sense in a world regulated by a gold standard, 100% reserve banking, and no FDIC, but otherwise encourages moral hazard.) That means that this whole "deregulation" thing may have gone a little too far in some cases.

< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 9/17/2008 4:09:36 PM >
Post #: 45
RE: Lehman Bros. bankrupt, Merril Lynch sold... - 9/17/2008 5:36:02 PM   
bzirk


Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoShow

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

I am mad at the government. I'm sick of them all (democrats and republicans).


Seriously. Don't you ever get the feeling they promote the whole Democrats and Republicans factor, so the general public spends all their time focusing on that; while the politicians as a whole go about with their hidden agenda?

And I don't mean in a conspiracy way, simply like a QB faking the hand off to the running back, than throwing the long bomb to the WR running down the sideline.


I know what you mean. It's the power culture up there. Just feed the American public some sound bites to get elected but never tell the ignorant masses what's going on because they can't handle it.

_____________________________

may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13

Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
Post #: 46
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