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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:03:18 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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Once again I am seeing no scripture that supports the other camps view. Once again I see an attempt to disassemble the scriptures we have given but no scripture that supports clearly the other view. Come on guys, where is your burden of proof?
< Message edited by bygraceiamsaved -- 4/21/2005 7:05:20 PM >
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:04:58 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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quote:
f that's the case, then a preacher better not call himself a prophet. LOL!
That's because a prophet is not a preacher, he/she is a teacher.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:05:59 PM
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bzirk
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
quote:
If this is about Deborah, I find this idea laughable that a prophet had no authority because he/she was just a mouthpiece. If that's the case, then a preacher better not call himself a prophet. LOL!
She had no authority that usurped man's. The Bible does not contradict itself Bzirk. It's not going to go against what God has already mandated. To say what you have said is to have the Bible contradict 1 Timothy 2 and 3 as well as other passages we have shown you. Prophetess means teacher. Does a teacher have a lot of authority?
Uh yeah, a teacher can have a lot of authority. Especially as in Deborah's case when a man was subject to it.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:07:10 PM
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bzirk
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BTW, I meant to say teacher, but I disagree with the modern interpretation of a prophet as merely a teacher.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:07:11 PM
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Ginosko
Posts: 132
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bygrace,
Prophetess means teacher.
Phrophetess means teacher? I must have missed that definition. Could you steer me to a Gree/Hebrew Lexicon that provides a definition like that? Thanks!
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:07:38 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: Coheir
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
coheir,
And Adam called his wife’s name Eve....
Acording to Old Testament culture, the one who names another is the one who exercises authority over the one named.
That may well be so ... I'm inclined to agree with this, although I haven't studied it thoroughly.
But you will note that Adam did not name her Eve until after the Fall. It was after the fall that Patriarchy and gender-based rule was ushered in, as God predicted when he told Eve "he shall rule over you." This was not God's original design.
He named her "woman" before the fall. Not God but Adam named her.
A. Why do you think he named her that as if you will look in scripture everything was named the way they were for a reason B. Adam named her, but who's idea do you think it really was?
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:08:41 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
bygrace,
Prophetess means teacher.
Phrophetess means teacher? I must have missed that definition. Could you steer me to a Gree/Hebrew Lexicon that provides a definition like that? Thanks!
Yep.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:09:35 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
And I don't automatically assign connotations to helper that allow me to extrapolate leader/helper out of that passage. I'm getting my conclusion from the pattern set concering men's headship right out of the chute with Adam being in the lead, and then at the end of the Bible, Paul makes reference to it more than once, and Peter makes reference to it. That kind of clears up any quetsions I have about whether or not there is indeed a pattern.
I missed this earlier, Bzirk. What do you mean by men's headship "right out of the chute with Adam being in the lead." Can you elaborate?
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:15:48 PM
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Ginosko
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bygrace,
Yep.
What do you mean yep? In which Hebrew Greek Lexicon do you find the word "prophetess" defined as "teacher"? Brown Driver Briggs, Strong's Thayer's??? Where?
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:17:18 PM
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bzirk
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I already elaborated, but I'll do it again. The passages from Gen 2 and 3 really should speak for themselves. Adam was in chrage. Yes, he needed a helper. But he declares who the woman is, and he also is called to account by God, i.e., recognized as the head although Eve is still held responsible for her individual sin. But that's not the sum of what I base my conclusions on. The scriptures are riddled with God granting men the lead and headship on spiritual matters. There is only one case when this is not true -- Deborah. Then if that's not enough to convince, Paul and Peter both make reference to this being the basis for leadership/headship.
I am also waiting for bygrace's prooftext for teacher=prophet. Not to be confused with a prophet who might also teach or a teacher who might also do something prophetic. I'm talking about the reference to these things being exactly the same thing. They are not, so it ought to be interesting to see the backup.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:19:16 PM
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bzirk
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: Coheir
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
coheir,
And Adam called his wife’s name Eve....
Acording to Old Testament culture, the one who names another is the one who exercises authority over the one named.
That may well be so ... I'm inclined to agree with this, although I haven't studied it thoroughly.
But you will note that Adam did not name her Eve until after the Fall. It was after the fall that Patriarchy and gender-based rule was ushered in, as God predicted when he told Eve "he shall rule over you." This was not God's original design.
He named her "woman" before the fall. Not God but Adam named her.
A. Why do you think he named her that as if you will look in scripture everything was named the way they were for a reason B. Adam named her, but who's idea do you think it really was?
The point is that Adam was the one who actually did the deed. It's immaterial to this discussion whose idea it was.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:20:35 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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Sorry Ginosko did not see the second part of your question concerning prophets.
The role of the pastor/elder is primarily governance and teaching(1 Tim. 5:17). Look at the list of qualifications for elders, the gift of prophecy is not mentioned, but the ability to teach is(1 Tim. 3:2) In Eph. 4:11, prophets are distinguished from pastor/teachers. And even though men learn from prophecies that women give, Paul distinguishes the gift of prophecy from the gift of teaching.(Romans 12:6-7, 1 Cor. 12:28). Women are nowhere in scripture forbidden to prophesy. They just were to regulate the demeanor in which they prophesy so not to compromise the principle of the spiritual leadership of men(1 Cor. 11:5-10)
Prophecy in the worship of the early church was not the kind of authorative, infallible revelation as those in the OT written prophecies were.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:21:41 PM
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bzirk
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Let me make myself more clear. It is important whose idea it was. But I don't think as far as this discussion goes that showing whose idea it was will add to the argument that Adam had the authority to designate her place in the garden.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:24:29 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
Prophecy in the worship of the early church was not the kind of authorative, infallible revelation as those in the OT written prophecies were.
I agree with this.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:26:00 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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quote:
Deborah. Then if that's not enough to convince,
It's not because I disagree. Deborah had certain authority which did not "usurp" the authority of man. The Bible cannot go against what it has set down. It cannot and does not contradict itself. God does not go against what he has written in his Word, the Bible.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:27:35 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
quote:
Deborah. Then if that's not enough to convince,
It's not because I disagree. Deborah had certain authority which did not "usurp" the authority of man. The Bible cannot go against what it has set down. It cannot and does not contradict itself. God does not go against what he has written in his Word, the Bible.
It doesn't. Why do you think it does?
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:31:46 PM
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Ginosko
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Bygrace,
I appreciate your reference to the biblical texts; however, that does not answer my question. My question was, from which Hebrew/Greek Lexicon did you learn that the word "prophetess" means "teacher"?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 4/21/2005 8:03:50 PM
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floydette
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: cynthia
What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors.
Why the title? We have women who teach other women and they don't take on a title. I've never heard of that before...
...is it so she can to go to board meetings with the other men pastors/elders??
Using this logic sadie, there would be no need for the pastor to be called pastor, or the youth pastor to be called "youth pastor", etc. etc....
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 8:23:19 PM
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texbex
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Alright, I'm finding some of these replies very offensive. I_Believe wrote something like "What happened the FIRST time a woman tried to tell a man what God had said?" or something to that effect. That's VERY condescending and rude towards women in general. I extremely dislike being told that women just need to keep their mouths shut because they dont' know anything, and that the Bible has proven that the man always knows better than the woman. And yes, I am putting some words in people's mouths, but some of these posts have given off that exact attitude.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that women canNOT lead in church. They cannot speak or have any leadership positions. What then will happen to our churches? Positive male role models are becoming more and more scarce in our society. A truly genuine, loving, caring dad is becoming a very rare thing. I am not by any means putting down the positive Christian men on this forum or anywhere else, but anyone would have to be blind not to see this trend. Men everywhere are often not being leaders. Even Christian men. Mothers are more and more having to carry the burden of spiritually leading the family by themselves! I see it all around me, it's the situation MY family. Even if I agreed with the fact that women shouldn't lead, I think I'd still agree with women being leaders nowadays because that's the role they're being forced to take. I'm going on a mission trip this summer. There is a VAST majority of females on this mission trip. THere was one msision trip led by the same organization where only one boy signed up! Again, PLEASE don't think I'm insulting men who love to serve the Lord, but I'm telling you what I see. Females are just on fire for Christ, reaching out to people everywhere. They're a vast majority at youth camps, on mission trips, on most kinds of outreach. Clearly they're the leaders here! IF the "roles" have been reversed, don't pin it all on the women.
But getting back to my actual views, I don't even agree with this philosophy. Honestly I'll tell you the truth. In general, Christian men often have more qualities of "leadership" than Christian women. We are made different; we are naturally more gentle, more docile, not so forceful. BUT there are cases where this is exactly the kind of leadership needed! Men and women are different kinds of leaders, but that doesn't mean they both can't be leaders. Our conception of leadership is often one of being able to force dogma down the throats of the congregation-force and power are often the words that come to mind when "leadership" is talked of. But tht's not it! (again, not saying that's what all the male leaders in the world do, but women are often viewed as not capable of such force) The world has a messed-up conception of leadership and it's infiltrated our churches. Culture has always affected us. Truthfully I think one of the main reasons a vast majority of men were chosen to be leaders was because men were the only leaders society produced. God chose to have a dramatic feat like having Deborah as a leader to demonstrate that he is still in control, and God does intervene often throughout history, but these miraculous feats are usually rare because he wants to give us free will. Not saying I know what God thinks at all, but judging from history/Bible, I believe God would rather use what our imperfect world has produced than have a bunch of miracles. I don't remember who said it, but "A miracle once familiar is no longer a miracle". If you think I'm crazy, look at Esther. God did not make her a forceful leader all of a sudden, instead he used what society had made her to get his will accomplished for the Jews. He could have made her have a lot more power if he had desired, but to preserve our free will and to prove that he has control even when we have none, he chose to use her relatively powerless position.
Yes, yes, I know I still haven't addressed the scriptures in this post, and I'm just going to save myself the trouble of going into my own explanation by saying that I agree with the interpretations of those sharing my position, like oopsmartin and I think there were a couple of others.
Sorry if I rambled and sorry if none of this made sense. I will try to clarify later if there are questions but I can't get on very often.
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 8:35:36 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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I'll make this comment about your post, texbex. I DO think women can lead in the church. I think they can teach, and speak and do all sorts of things that men can do. I just don't think there is a scriptural basis for the norm being that they lead men in the church or that they teach men in the church. That's it.
Oh, and your handle wouldn't be because you're from Texas would it?
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Moving on... - 4/21/2005 8:41:19 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Has anyone on this thread been led to be a teacher of men in the church or have spiritual authority over men in the church. Please note that I'm not talking about men who are not believers or in secular settings. If so, would you describe the circumstances? Those are sincere questions, and no, I'm not looking to rake you. I am honestly asking about your experience.
I have taught both men (yes, including some of the elders) and women for several years. It has mainly been in 2 types of settings. Classes at church, aka Sunday school type of classes and also in conference settings. What kind of description would you like Lisa?
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 9:05:55 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
Bygrace,
I appreciate your reference to the biblical texts; however, that does not answer my question. My question was, from which Hebrew/Greek Lexicon did you learn that the word "prophetess" means "teacher"?
OT: Prophet(nawbee) a prophet or (generally) inspired man-prophecy, that prophesy
Prophetess(neebeyaw) Femine, a prophetess(generally) inspired woman by implication a poetess by association a prophets wife.
NT: Prophet(profaytace) By analogy an inspired speaker, by extension a poet, a foreteller.
And from another source:
rophetess
prof´et-es (נביאה, nebhī'āh; προφῆτις, prophḗtis): Women were not excluded from the prophetic office in the Old Testament, and were honored with the right of prophetic utterance in the New Testament. It should be noted, however, that women like Miriam (Exo_15:20), Deborah (Jdg_4:4) and Huldah (2Ki_22:14) were not credited with the seer's insight into the future, but were called “prophetesses” because of the poetical inspiration of their speech. Among others mentioned as having the prophetic gift we find Hannah (1Sa_2:1), Anna (Luk_2:36) and the four daughters of Philip (Act_21:8, Act_21:9). See PROPHET
< Message edited by bygraceiamsaved -- 4/21/2005 9:15:25 PM >
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 9:07:58 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
quote:
f that's the case, then a preacher better not call himself a prophet. LOL!
That's because a prophet is not a preacher, he/she is a teacher.
Actually to be a prophet and to be a teacher, is two separate things....they are listed separately. Sorry, if someone has posted that already....I haven't caught up yet.
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 9:21:47 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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You can think what you like Floyd but you would be wrong especially according to the passages of scripture I have given and the meaning of the word as I have also given.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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