RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Ezra -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 12:53:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Is it OK for a woman to be a pastor, but not of a church? I'm thinking like maybe a Christian motivational speaker?


The world looks to motivational speakers. The Church looks to evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Are Christians to be conformed to the world or transformed by the renewing of their minds?

"Pastors" by definition are elders and shepherds of the flock. For a woman to take this role is to simply disregard and disobey the Word of God. That's why it is called "usurping authority".

quote:

If women are not supposed to preach, then why do so many of them feel called to do so?


For the same reason that Eve felt "called" to disobey God, and little children feel "called" to do the opposite of what they are forbidden to do.



Ezra -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 1:12:13 AM)

quote:

Phoebe may not have had the official designation of “deacon” but Paul thought enough of her to entrust her with the responsibility of delivering the epistle to the Romans to the church in Rome (Romans 16:1-2).


Phoebe was indeed a "servant" of the church at Cenchrea, but that did not automatically mean that she was a deaconness. She was entrusted with a specific responsibility, but that also did not necessarily make her a "deaconness". She served the saints in many ways without necessarily being appointed to that office, which was reserved for men. Phoebe may have been a rather wealthy woman who shared her bounty with the saints freel, and had the means to travel.

Deacons were appointed to look after the temporal affairs of the local assembly (Acts 6:1-7) and only men were appointed (v. 3 says "seven men" not "seven men or women"), and were required to meet specific qualifications, one of them being "the husband of one wife" (1 Tim. 3:8-13). Since no woman can be the husband of one wife, it should be rather obvious as to who are expected to be deacons.

Once again, this does not preclude women from serving in the local church in various capacities. But it does mean that God has specific tasks for specific people. Why were all the apostles men, when Christ had numerous devoted female disciples? Because God has a certain order in His universe and in His Church (and also within the Godhead).

quote:

Yes, I agree that Scripture does not support the idea of women serving as deacons, but it does not necessarily disqualify them.


You can't have it both ways. Equivocation has become the bane of Christianity. We are less and less prepared to take a clear stand because it may be politically incorrect. However, women are automatically disqualified for the simple reason that Scripture does not plainly state "Men or women may be elders or deacons". Quite the opposite.



Roberta_ -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 1:54:12 AM)

So it's unbiblical for a woman to be an evangelist?

What about a missionary?



J_Michael80 -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 3:43:10 AM)

quote:

original: DenimDiva

So it's unbiblical for a woman to be an evangelist?


The word evangelist comes from the Greek word ("euangelion") which means "good news given to the messenger." Therefore, as Ezra has already stated, it would be unbiblical for a woman to be a evangelist, pastor, elder, or a deacon of the church. Women are to be silent and have no position of authority in the church. On the other hand, if you are referring to women being involved in evangelism as a missionary or open air, than this would biblical. Remember, everything Ezra has stated was referring to the compounds of the church.



benelchi -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 9:45:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_

quote:

original: DenimDiva

So it's unbiblical for a woman to be an evangelist?


The word evangelist comes from the Koine Greek word ("euangelion") which originally meant "a reward for good news given to the messenger." Therefore, as Ezra has already stated, it would be unbiblical for a woman to be a evangelist, pastor, elder, or a deacon of the church. Women are to be silent and have no position of authority in the church. But if you are referring to women being involved in evangelism as a missionary or open air, than this would biblical. Remember, everything Ezra has stated was referring to the compounds of the church.



Sorry, but it is not that simple.

There are women deacons spoken of in the bible, and there is even one reference to a woman apostle. We also know that the early church accepted women deacons because there are references to them in the writings of the early church.

In the bible, women are given instructions about how they are to prophecy and pray in the church, clearly the command to be silent was not an all encompassing command.

Paul commends many women who served along side him.

Paul never referred to the "compounds of the church" because during his time church services were held in peoples homes; one such home mentioned by Paul was the home of a woman.



Demideva, Take a look through the history of this thread. All of the claims made in these last few posts have already been dealt with.



J_Michael80 -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 10:05:05 AM)

benelchi,

I have to disagree. There are absolutely no women deacons mentioned in the bible. The only person that comes close is Phoebe but this is extremely controversial because there are so many different interpretations of (Romans 16:1). Although I have been a proponant of the deaconess positions in the church, I have to agree with Ezra on this subject. Indeed, according to the scripture, elders and deacons must be men. Both their qualifications are very similar.



benelchi -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 10:12:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_

benelchi,

I have to disagree. There are absolutely no women deacons mentioned in the bible (this is simply not true). The only person that comes close is Phoebe but this is extremely controversial because there are so many different interpretations of (Romans 16:1). Although I have been a proponant of the deaconess positions in the church, I have to agree with Ezra on this issue. Indeed, according to the scripture, elders and deacons must be men. Both their qualifications are very similar.


In order to dismiss Phobe as a deacon, one has to assume the the word deacon was only used to describe her ministry and not her office; however, from the context there is no reason to do that. Additionally, it is clear that the early church (second century) accepted women deacons, and since there were very close to the time period in which Paul wrote and were fluent in the langauge he spoke, I must assume they understood the biblical mandate better than Ezra does.



Ezra -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/20/2008 4:25:44 AM)

quote:

In order to dismiss Phobe as a deacon, one has to assume the the word deacon was only used to describe her ministry and not her office; however, from the context there is no reason to do that. Additionally, it is clear that the early church (second century) accepted women deacons, and since there were very close to the time period in which Paul wrote and were fluent in the langauge he spoke, I must assume they understood the biblical mandate better than Ezra does.


Benelchi:

The Christian always has two options: (a) to take what is revealed in Scripture as God's truth, regardless of the traditions of men or (b) elevate the traditions of men to the same level as the Word of God, and seek to implement them.

The Catholic Encyclopedia honestly states that Scripture does not recognize any office such as that of "deaconness", and also points out that Phoebe did not have any "official status" as even the Vulgate will show.

At the same time, we know from church history that there were numerous departures from the New Testament pattern. Therefore the same article points out that by the middle of the 4th century, there were deaconness in the Catholic Church.

So, if you wish to follow the traditions of men, by all means follow them. But at the same time, acknowledge honestly with the Catholic Encyclopedia that you have no Scriptural basis for your belief.


quote:

Deaconesses
We cannot be sure that any formal recognition of deaconesses as an institution of consecrated women aiding the clergy is to be found in the New Testament. There is indeed the mention of Phebe (Romans 16:1), who is called diakonos, but this may simply mean, as the Vulgate renders it, that she was "in the ministry [i.e. service] of the Church", without implying any official status. Again, it is not improbable that the "widows" who are spoken of at large in I Timothy 5:3-10, may really have been deaconesses, but here again we have nothing conclusive. That some such functionaries were appointed at an early date seems probable from Pliny's letter to Trajan concerning the Christians of Bithynia (Ep. X, 97, AD 112) There he speaks of obtaining information by torture from two ancillae quae ministrae dicebantur, where a technical use of words seems to be implied. In any case there can be no question that before the middle of the fourth century women were permitted to exercise certain definite functions in the Church and were known by the special name of diakonoi or diakonissai.



benelchi -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/20/2008 9:14:49 AM)

quote:

The Christian always has two options: (a) to take what is revealed in Scripture as God's truth, regardless of the traditions of men or (b) elevate the traditions of men to the same level as the Word of God, and seek to implement them.


Because I choose to follow God's word on this matter rather than the "Traditions of men", I must reject your interpretation. It does not align with what I know of the first century church, nor does it alight with what I know from scripture, nor does it align with with how the early church understood the scriptures.


quote:

The Catholic Encyclopedia honestly states that Scripture does not recognize any office such as that of "deaconness", and also points out that Phoebe did not have any "official status" as even the Vulgate will show.



I have never believed that the "Catholic Encyclopedia" is the inspired word of God, so I have no problem rejecting its interpretation. BTW their are many things that the Catholics believe which I believe are unscriptural i.e Papal authority, sinlessness of Mary, the intercessory nature of the priesthood, etc...



Roberta_ -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 1:36:17 AM)

As many of you know, I'm still church shopping. In one of the churches, the husband and wife are both pastors. However, she never does any pastoring. She does head up some of the ministries, but she does not preach. She is never in the pulpit. She basically became a pastor because she wanted the education, but not the occupation. Is there anything unbiblical about that?



Ezra -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 2:48:00 AM)

quote:

She is never in the pulpit. She basically became a pastor because she wanted the education, but not the occupation. Is there anything unbiblical about that?


This is both unbiblical and dishonest.

If a Christian woman wants to study the Word seriously, that is commendable, provided she desires to grow in grace and teach other women as taught in Scripture (Tit.2:3-5).

A "pastor" is a person who is called of God to shepherd His flock (1 Pet. 5:1-4), and therefore a pastor is also an elder. It is a grave responsibility.

Since this lady cannot, will not, and must not shepherd God's flock, the honest thing for her to do is to tell the church that she is only the pastor's wife, not a co-pastor.

Will this happen? Not likely. Therefore you must weigh the consequences of being subjected to this anomalous situation.



Ezra -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 2:54:53 AM)

quote:

BTW their are many things that the Catholics believe which I believe are unscriptural


Including "deaconesses". The point of quoting from the Catholic Encyclopedia was to show you that even though Catholics allow for "deaconesses" their Encyclopedia is honest enough to admit that Scripture makes no such provision.

Therefore, despite of your protestations to the contrary, you too are following the traditions of men.



benelchi -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 3:55:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

BTW their are many things that the Catholics believe which I believe are unscriptural


Including "deaconesses". The point of quoting from the Catholic Encyclopedia was to show you that even though Catholics allow for "deaconesses" their Encyclopedia is honest enough to admit that Scripture makes no such provision.

Therefore, despite of your protestations to the contrary, you too are following the traditions of men.



Not quite: The early church that accepted deacons was prior to what we know today as the catholic church, they did not accept papal authority.

From everything I have studied I would have to say that the viewpoint you have proposed is a "tradition of man" and a very resent one that didn't really take form until after the 1930's, before that time women had much greater roles for ministry with in the church.



Roberta_ -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 12:08:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

She is never in the pulpit. She basically became a pastor because she wanted the education, but not the occupation. Is there anything unbiblical about that?


This is both unbiblical and dishonest.


Why?

quote:

If a Christian woman wants to study the Word seriously, that is commendable, provided she desires to grow in grace and teach other women as taught in Scripture (Tit.2:3-5).


That's what she does.

quote:

A "pastor" is a person who is called of God to shepherd His flock (1 Pet. 5:1-4), and therefore a pastor is also an elder. It is a grave responsibility.


Pastor is just the title they gave her when she graduated. It wasn't her goal to be a pastor and like I said, she is never in the pulpit.

quote:

Since this lady cannot, will not, and must not shepherd God's flock, the honest thing for her to do is to tell the church that she is only the pastor's wife, not a co-pastor.


Only the pastor's wife? You make it sound like such a small thing to be a pw! [8D]

quote:

Will this happen? Not likely. Therefore you must weigh the consequences of being subjected to this anomalous situation.


To the best of my knowledge, she has never attempted to fill her husband's shoes.



JesKlu -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 1:16:51 PM)

Hello Ezra!

I agree with you on your position on women are not to be pastors. But the early church does seem to allow women deaconesses.

Here are the Early Fathers against women priests.


Irenaeus
"Pretending to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, [Marcus the Gnostic heretic] contrives to give them a purple and reddish color. . . . [H]anding mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence.

"When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated, and pouring from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: ‘May that Charis who is before all things and who transcends all knowledge and speech fill your inner man and multiply in you her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in you as in good soil.’

"Repeating certain other similar words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many and drawn them away after him" (Against Heresies 1:13:2 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
"When a widow is to be appointed, she is not to be ordained, but is designated by being named [a widow]. . . . A widow is appointed by words alone, and is then associated with the other widows. Hands are not imposed on her, because she does not offer the oblation and she does not conduct the liturgy. Ordination is for the clergy because of the liturgy; but a widow is appointed for prayer, and prayer is the duty of all" (The Apostolic Tradition 11 [A.D. 215]).

The Didascalia
"For it is not to teach that you women . . . are appointed. . . . For he, God the Lord, Jesus Christ our Teacher, sent us, the twelve [apostles], out to teach the [chosen] people and the pagans. But there were female disciples among us: Mary of Magdala, Mary the daughter of Jacob, and the other Mary; he did not, however, send them out with us to teach the people. For, if it had been necessary that women should teach, then our Teacher would have directed them to instruct along with us" (Didascalia 3:6:1–2 [A.D. 225]).

Firmilian
"[T]here suddenly arose among us a certain woman, who in a state of ecstasy announced herself as a prophetess and acted as if filled with the Holy Ghost. . . . Through the deceptions and illusions of the demon, this woman had previously set about deluding believers in a variety of ways. Among the means by which she had deluded many was daring to pretend that, through proper invocation, she consecrated bread and performed the Eucharist. She offered up the sacrifice to the Lord in a liturgical act that corresponds to the usual rites, and she baptized many, all the while misusing the customary and legitimate wording of the [baptismal] question. She carried all these things out in such a manner that nothing seemed to deviate from the norms of the Church" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74:10 [A.D. 253]).

John Chrysostom
"[W]hen one is required to preside over the Church and to be entrusted with the care of so many souls, the whole female sex must retire before the magnitude of the task, and the majority of men also, and we must bring forward those who to a large extent surpass all others and soar as much above them in excellence of spirit as Saul overtopped the whole Hebrew nation in bodily stature" (The Priesthood 2:2 [A.D. 387]).

Augustine
"[The Quintillians are heretics who] give women predominance so that these, too, can be honored with the priesthood among them. They say, namely, that Christ revealed himself . . . to Quintilla and Priscilla [two Montanist prophetesses] in the form of a woman" (Heresies 1:17 [A.D. 428]).



So clearly the Fathers were against the ordination of women to the priesthood. But, there is mention of deaconesses, and for certain reasons.

Epiphanius of Salamis
"It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess, nor for any kind of work of administration, but for the sake of the dignity of the female sex, either at the time of baptism or of examining the sick or suffering, so that the naked body of a female may not be seen by men administering sacred rites, but by the deaconess" (ibid.).

Council of Nicaea I
"Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity" (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Women_and_the_Priesthood.asp

I hope this helps. The early Fathers were much closer to the time of the Apostles than we are, sometimes listening to what they have to say isn't a bad thing.

Your sister in Chrsit Jesus,
Jessica



J_Michael80 -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 4:09:05 PM)

quote:

original: JesKlu

Hello Ezra! I agree with you on your position on women are not to be pastors. But the early church does seem to allow women deaconesses.


It does not matter what the early church did. The scripture is what we should base the issue of whether women deacons are biblical or unbiblical. If we base this subject soley on scripture, deaconesses are definitely unbiblical. According to the bible, deacons must be men.



benelchi -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 4:19:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_

quote:

original: JesKlu

Hello Ezra! I agree with you on your position on women are not to be pastors. But the early church does seem to allow women deaconesses.


It does not matter what the early church did. The scripture is what we should base the issue of whether women deacons are biblical or unbiblical. If we base this subject soley on scripture, deaconesses are definitely unbiblical. According to the bible, deacons must be men.



But again the bible speaks of women deacons, how could that be unbiblical?



J_Michael80 -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 4:27:10 PM)

quote:

orginal: benelchi

But again the bible speaks of women deacons, how could that be unbiblical?


This is flat out false. There are no women deacons in the bible.



GroupW -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 5:17:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_

quote:

orginal: benelchi

But again the bible speaks of women deacons, how could that be unbiblical?


This is flat out false. There are no women deacons in the bible.


I'll step in and support Benelchi on this one. To argue against it, you'd have to explain who Phoebe was and why she's referred to as a deacon by Paul if she were not one.



Ezra -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 9:29:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_

quote:

original: JesKlu

Hello Ezra! I agree with you on your position on women are not to be pastors. But the early church does seem to allow women deaconesses.


It does not matter what the early church did. The scripture is what we should base the issue of whether women deacons are biblical or unbiblical. If we base this subject soley on scripture, deaconesses are definitely unbiblical. According to the bible, deacons must be men.


Exactly, faithfulservant.

The principle we are contending for is whether or not a teaching is found in Scripture, not what churches did or did not do (in response to Jesklu).

We know from the letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) that false teachings and false practices had crept into the churches even while the apostles were alive (Rev. 2,3). Therefore our only reliable and true standard is the Word of God itself.

And Scripture says absolutely nothing about female pastors/elders or deacons. As I pointed out, even the Catholic Encyclopedia is compelled to admit this. And if they had any excuse, they would have used it to support deaconesses. But even the Catholic Vulgate calls Phebe a "servant" or "minister" of the church.

GroupW, Paul did not call Phebe a deacon, and the KJV as well as the Vulgate made sure that diakonon was not translated thus for Phebe. It would have been a gross contradiction for Paul to call Phebe a deacon on one hand, then spell out the qualifications of deacons in a way that is unmistakably an office for men (as is the office of pastor/elder/bishop).

It should also be carefully noted, that when the first occasion for deacons appeared in the church at Jerusalem (Acts 6:1-7) it was on the basis of complaints about widows (i.e. women) being neglected. Had God planned to have deaconesses, this was a golden opportunity for women to minister to women. But what do we find? "Look ye out among you SEVEN MEN (Gk. andras = males) of good report, full of the Holy Ghost..." (v.3)

Today's feminists would say "Lord, why men when it is women who needed to be ministered to?" And the answer would be "Because women are not to be deacons in the churches. Male deacons minister to both men, women, and children".

All this may look like much ado about nothing, except that what we are contending for is adherence to Scripture. Departures from Scripture are what we are facing.



GroupW -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 11:13:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra
GroupW, Paul did not call Phebe a deacon, and the KJV as well as the Vulgate made sure that diakonon was not translated thus for Phebe. It would have been a gross contradiction for Paul to call Phebe a deacon on one hand, then spell out the qualifications of deacons in a way that is unmistakably an office for men (as is the office of pastor/elder/bishop).


Same word. Translated two different ways long after the original writer was dead. I have to go with the plain meaning of the word in the absence of a reason to do otherwise.

For reasons that I've already posted in this thread, it is possible to view 1 Tim 3 as not being restricted necessarily to married men but rather that if the position is occupied by men, those men should be monogamous. Reasonable minds will (and do!) disagree on that point. Note only that both Paul and Jesus would be excluded from the office as it's written there. I find that too odd for comfort. Where something is too odd to be likely, I always tend to think there's something else going on and that the essential point of a passage is possibly being overlooked or misread.

"In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity"

I'm not inclined to argue the point, but I do like to put alternative viewpoints out there for folks to make their own decisions about.

Regards,

BT



JesKlu -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/25/2008 6:55:34 PM)

Ok, let me get this straight. I am totally against women teaching and having authority over men said in 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Cor 14 and 1 Timothy 3 and Titus. But, there had to be an order of deaconnesses in the early church, not for them to teach over men. Actually, the role of deaconesses was to assist at the baptisms of women and children and administering to sick women.

Epiphanius of Salamis
"It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess, nor for any kind of work of administration, but for the sake of the dignity of the female sex, either at the time of baptism or of examining the sick or suffering, so that the naked body of a female may not be seen by men administering sacred rites, but by the deaconess" (ibid.).



So basically, it is shameful for men to see a naked womens body except for her husband. Common sense right? So, a priest could not administer to a sick women to save him the shame of seeing her naked. For this reason, and for helping at the baptisms of women, they established an order of deaconesses.

There are a few denominations that still retain this early practice, and they are very conservative ones too.

But I tell you, deaconesses do not teach or preach over men. Their role is the same as in the early church, administering to sick women and helping at the baptisms of women and children, but they cannot perform them though. They play a really minor role.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



revbob4God -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (7/28/2008 4:52:16 PM)

quote:

I understand submission. I am in submission to my husband and in another sense to my pastor and in a greater sense to all christians as we submit to one another. However, this submission to authority doesn't keep my pastor from asking me to speak in the assembly.

_____________________________

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.


Charity, has your Pastor ASKED you speak to speak in the assembly? If he has, may I ask what he has asked you to speak about?

Respectfully,

Reverend Bob



PeterD -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (8/8/2008 1:00:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

Ok, let me get this straight. I am totally against women teaching and having authority over men said in 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Cor 14 and 1 Timothy 3 and Titus. But, there had to be an order of deaconnesses in the early church, not for them to teach over men. Actually, the role of deaconesses was to assist at the baptisms of women and children and administering to sick women.

Epiphanius of Salamis
"It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess, nor for any kind of work of administration, but for the sake of the dignity of the female sex, either at the time of baptism or of examining the sick or suffering, so that the naked body of a female may not be seen by men administering sacred rites, but by the deaconess" (ibid.).



So basically, it is shameful for men to see a naked womens body except for her husband. Common sense right? So, a priest could not administer to a sick women to save him the shame of seeing her naked. For this reason, and for helping at the baptisms of women, they established an order of deaconesses.

There are a few denominations that still retain this early practice, and they are very conservative ones too.

But I tell you, deaconesses do not teach or preach over men. Their role is the same as in the early church, administering to sick women and helping at the baptisms of women and children, but they cannot perform them though. They play a really minor role.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica

quote:

deaconesses


Good morning Jessica

How does this website relate to your last post?

http://www.womenpriests.org/deacons/itc.asp

§ 6. Ranking women deacons with the clergy
The deaconesses were named before the sub-deacon who, in his turn, received a cheirotonia like the deacon (CA VIII 21), while the virgins and widows could not be "ordained" (VIII 24-25). The Constitutiones insist that the deaconesses should have no liturgical function (III 9, 1-2), but should devote themselves to their function in the community which was "service to the women" (CA 111 16, 1) and as intermediaries between women and the bishop. It is still stated that they represent the Holy Spirit, but they "do nothing without the deacon" (CA II 26, 6). They should stand at the women's entrances in the assemblies (II 57, 10). Their functions are summed up as follows: "The deaconess does not bless, and she does not fulfil any of the things that priests and deacons do, but she looks after the doors and attends the priests during the baptism of women, for the sake of decency" (CA VIII 28, 6).

This is echoed by the almost contemporary observation of Epiphanius of Salamis in his Panarion, in around 375: "There is certainly in the Church the order of deaconesses, but this does not exist to exercise the functions of a priest, nor are they to have any undertaking committed to them, but for the decency of the feminine sex at the time of baptism. [67]

A law of Theodosius of 21 June 390, revoked on 23 August of the same year, fixed the age for admission to the ministry of deaconesses at 60. The Council of Chalcedon (can. 15) reduced the age to 40, forbidding them subsequent marriage. [68]

Note 67. Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion haer. 79, 3, 6, ed. K. Holy GCS 37, 1933, p.478.

Note 70. Cf G. ALBERIGO, Les Conciles Ecuméniques, Les Décrets, vol. II, 1, Paris 1994, 214.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------and also look back a few post's to (post #5006) you words edified what Ezra said.

Peter



JesKlu -> RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (8/9/2008 6:41:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeterD

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

Ok, let me get this straight. I am totally against women teaching and having authority over men said in 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Cor 14 and 1 Timothy 3 and Titus. But, there had to be an order of deaconnesses in the early church, not for them to teach over men. Actually, the role of deaconesses was to assist at the baptisms of women and children and administering to sick women.

Epiphanius of Salamis
"It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess, nor for any kind of work of administration, but for the sake of the dignity of the female sex, either at the time of baptism or of examining the sick or suffering, so that the naked body of a female may not be seen by men administering sacred rites, but by the deaconess" (ibid.).



So basically, it is shameful for men to see a naked womens body except for her husband. Common sense right? So, a priest could not administer to a sick women to save him the shame of seeing her naked. For this reason, and for helping at the baptisms of women, they established an order of deaconesses.

There are a few denominations that still retain this early practice, and they are very conservative ones too.

But I tell you, deaconesses do not teach or preach over men. Their role is the same as in the early church, administering to sick women and helping at the baptisms of women and children, but they cannot perform them though. They play a really minor role.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica

quote:

deaconesses


Good morning Jessica

How does this website relate to your last post?

http://www.womenpriests.org/deacons/itc.asp

§ 6. Ranking women deacons with the clergy
The deaconesses were named before the sub-deacon who, in his turn, received a cheirotonia like the deacon (CA VIII 21), while the virgins and widows could not be "ordained" (VIII 24-25). The Constitutiones insist that the deaconesses should have no liturgical function (III 9, 1-2), but should devote themselves to their function in the community which was "service to the women" (CA 111 16, 1) and as intermediaries between women and the bishop. It is still stated that they represent the Holy Spirit, but they "do nothing without the deacon" (CA II 26, 6). They should stand at the women's entrances in the assemblies (II 57, 10). Their functions are summed up as follows: "The deaconess does not bless, and she does not fulfil any of the things that priests and deacons do, but she looks after the doors and attends the priests during the baptism of women, for the sake of decency" (CA VIII 28, 6).

This is echoed by the almost contemporary observation of Epiphanius of Salamis in his Panarion, in around 375: "There is certainly in the Church the order of deaconesses, but this does not exist to exercise the functions of a priest, nor are they to have any undertaking committed to them, but for the decency of the feminine sex at the time of baptism. [67]

A law of Theodosius of 21 June 390, revoked on 23 August of the same year, fixed the age for admission to the ministry of deaconesses at 60. The Council of Chalcedon (can. 15) reduced the age to 40, forbidding them subsequent marriage. [68]

Note 67. Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion haer. 79, 3, 6, ed. K. Holy GCS 37, 1933, p.478.

Note 70. Cf G. ALBERIGO, Les Conciles Ecuméniques, Les Décrets, vol. II, 1, Paris 1994, 214.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------and also look back a few post's to (post #5006) you words edified what Ezra said.

Peter



Hello Peter!

Yes, I agree with the article you gave. It is exactly the same thing that I was talking about. But...... The rest of the site I do not agree with, since I do not believe that women have the authority to be priests/pastors and elders. Those roles are reserved only for men.

And even in the early church when there was deaconesses, their role was subordinate to the male deacons. All the deaconesses did was assist at the baptisms of women, and minister to the women who were sick, for the decency of the feminine sex, meaning so that a priest or male deacon wouldn't see a woman naked. It just makes sense.

Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica



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