RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread

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bzirk -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:41:36 PM)
For anyone thinking of reading the Grudem and Piper book, please don't make the decision on quotes. Read the stuff in context. Thanks.

bzirk -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:44:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sadiebelle quote: ORIGINAL: cynthia What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors. Why the title? We have women who teach other women and they don't take on a title. I've never heard of that before... ...is it so she can to go to board meetings with the other men pastors/elders?? So people will know who is running the women's ministry in the church. Would director be more palatable?

JoToP -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 6:46:49 PM)
Women pastors to women in the church. Interesting idea. What kind of church are we talking about? An all women's church?

texbex -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 7:08:16 PM)
I've been reading that Can Women Be Pastors thread all afternoon...I've been a bit disturbed and confused lately as to what the Bible says about women, and I was hoping that some of these discussions would help answer my questions. While they have answered some, they have raised still more, and I know I will never find out all there is to know about my God. I was reading the whole deal about the Timothy passage earlier...this is probalby the most controversial passage I've ever seen. Some say that we who believe women should teach in church are twisting it to fit our desires, but I believe we're actually the ones simplifying it. Any verse in the Bible that has seemed to contradict the majority of the Bible is usually delved into a bit deeper and not taken at such a surface level. Why should these 1 Timothy verses be any different? Admittedly there haven't been as many women leaders as men throughout the Bible for many reasons, including that (just from my experience) a lot of women are less inclined to be leaders and are better suited to other things. But the fact is there have been some. And if you take that passage at surface value, you are saying Deborah shouldn't have been a leader, or Priscilla, or other examples cited. And I guarantee you they were leaders of men as well as women. There have been so many things that have bothered me as I've coursed through the thread that I can't even remember them all. The presumption that only men should be teachers of the gospel is ignorant. Although I could find Scripture to support this, I'm going to give my own experience as an example: I had a woman pastor in Florida and she was absolutely amazing. The men and women alike loved her and our church thrived, was an absolute beacon for Jesus. The Holy Spirit was clearly in this woman, and I believe that if she wasn't supposed to lead the church the Holy Spirit wouldn't have been with her. God gives gifts of gospel communication to men and women alike. It's unfair to God's PEOPLE to give a man a position in a church that a woman may be better suited for (or vice versa of course) and it's an insult to God to waste his gift of talent. And no, I am not giving just my opinion because I agree with the assertions that that part of 1 Timothy was directed to women who were disrupting the church. If you look earlier, I think in that very book, Paul states that the men aren't doing such a good job of teaching either. As to Jesus choosing men for His disciples, I agree with whoever said that it would have been improper in the time period for them to have women following them everywhere. As it was, Jesus astonished people just by keeping company with women sometimes and talking to them the same way he talked to his male friends...the people surely would have crucified him even sooner if they had seen him roaming around with a band of women every day! Gosh, there was so much more I was going to say...maybe further discussion will help me remember.

JoToP -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 7:19:31 PM)
quote: God gives gifts of gospel communication to men and women alike. It's unfair to God's PEOPLE to give a man a position in a church that a woman may be better suited for (or vice versa of course) and it's an insult to God to waste his gift of talent. And no, I am not giving just my opinion because I agree with the assertions that that part of 1 Timothy was directed to women who were disrupting the church. If you look earlier, I think in that very book, Paul states that the men aren't doing such a good job of teaching either. Problem is, the epistle to Timothy wasn’t written to a church. It was written to Timothy. The idea that a particular problem had arisen in the church falls flat when one realizes that 1 Timothy is a pastoral epistle, not an ecclesiastical epistle. quote: As to Jesus choosing men for His disciples, I agree with whoever said that it would have been improper in the time period for them to have women following them everywhere. As it was, Jesus astonished people just by keeping company with women sometimes and talking to them the same way he talked to his male friends...the people surely would have crucified him even sooner if they had seen him roaming around with a band of women every day! Actually women did follow Jesus. Here’s just one example: Matthew 27:55 (ESV) There were also many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him,

cynthia -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 7:20:23 PM)
quote: Ginosko wrote: No one has said or implied that as a woman you may not speak at any time for any purpose in the assembly. Not in this particular thread, but someone, in a different thread, pretty much said, “women are to be silent in the church, period.” We have quite a variety of view around here. We’re such an interesting group of Christians. quote: Ginosko wrote: Cynthia, What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors. To tell you the truth, sis, I'd never thought about that possibility. I probably ought to think about it though before a shoot my mouth off. Thinking, thinking, thinking..... I need more time. (I've gotta go ask my wife... Ahhhh, just kidding!!) I'll get back to ya. Laughing. Enjoying the comic relief. quote: Sadiebelle wrote: quote: ORIGINAL: cynthia What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors. Why the title? We have women who teach other women and they don't take on a title. I've never heard of that before... ...is it so she can to go to board meetings with the other men pastors/elders?? It’s not a matter of title. It is a matter of what she does. If a woman is shepherding other women, then she’s a pastor, that’s what pastors do, they shepherd people. There are probably lots of people, men and women that are pastoring, but they don’t even know it. I’m not even referring specifically to a paid position. However, for those women that actually work for the church, in a paid position, if a woman is “officially” a pastor, she receives the same advantages that a man would receive for the same “title”. Major tax advantages for one, discounts on Christian materials, etc. Plus I think it’s appropriate for a woman that is pastoring other women to be referred to as pastor. We have a large church, the woman overseeing the Women’s Ministries is working on her ordination. She never speaks in the meetingss where the men and women are being taught. That’s not what her job is. She is specifically responsible for shepherding the women. There is also a Men’s pastor at our church that is specifically responsible for things that are particularly for men. Men and women have many of the same issues, but we also have issues that are specific to our gender. Also there is the issue of a woman going to a woman for counsel rather than to a man and visa versa. It is more appropriate for women to be teaching women about things that are more personal and relational. Our Women’s Ministry leader has a raised her children and is now seeking to minister to other women. I’ve also noticed that women in some churches are doing the same work as some of the men that are called pastors, but the women are not called pastor, even though they have the same responsibilities, etc. Wondering why that is. If she’s doing the same things, what does it change to call him a pastor, but not her? I don’t get it. That all being said, I was just wondering what others think. quote: JoToP asked: What kind of church are we talking about? An all women's church? Yes. There is an amazon womens church that men are afraid to go to and all they could find was a woman to lead, but she can't get the tax write off because her denomination won't let her get ordained. [sm=smile-l.gif]

Coheir -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 7:24:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sadiebelle Interesting quote from a book I am reading: " Male headship at home and eldership at church mean that men bear the responsibility for the overall paatern of life. Headship does not prescribe the details of who precisely does what activity. quote: the man bore primary responsibility for life in the garden--including sin." ~Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood...Piper & Grudem I suggest you look again at God's creational design of man and woman. Genesis 1:26-28: 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." God did not assign the man the responsibility for "the overall pattern of life." They are given exactly the same mandate by God, with neither the man nor the woman being assigned as the leader over the other.

JoToP -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 7:25:27 PM)
Bzirk, I love the avatar. I've got that picture hanging up on my corkboard at the school. Its one of my favorites. Cynthia, quote: Yes. There is an amazon womens church that men are afraid to go to and all they could find was a woman to lead, but she can't get the tax write off because her denomination won't let her get ordained. [sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif] I have hard time believing, in 21st century America, that she would have any problem getting an ordination or a tax write off. Amazon Methodist Church. Got a ring to it.

Coheir -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 7:25:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sadiebelle quote: ORIGINAL: cynthia What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors. Why the title? We have women who teach other women and they don't take on a title. I've never heard of that before... ...is it so she can to go to board meetings with the other men pastors/elders?? Let's turn that around. Why do men who serve in offices of the church have titles? Either titles matter, or they don't. But let's not use a double standard.

Coheir -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 7:34:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: texbex Any verse in the Bible that has seemed to contradict the majority of the Bible is usually delved into a bit deeper and not taken at such a surface level. Why should these 1 Timothy verses be any different? Exactly, Tex! Hanging an entire doctrine on a verse that contradicts the rest of what is taught in the Bible is not a good thing. quote: The presumption that only men should be teachers of the gospel is ignorant. Although I could find Scripture to support this, I'm going to give my own experience as an example: I had a woman pastor in Florida and she was absolutely amazing. The men and women alike loved her and our church thrived, was an absolute beacon for Jesus. The Holy Spirit was clearly in this woman, and I believe that if she wasn't supposed to lead the church the Holy Spirit wouldn't have been with her. Good point. Sin has serious repercussions. The sin of premarital sex or promiscuity brings with it disease, single-parent homes, and abortion. The sin of gossip brings with it tarnished reputations, hurt feelings, and damaged relationships. The so-called "sin" of a woman pastoring brings ... what, exactly? The spread of the gospel! We are told "By their fruits you shall know them." When people are led to a closer relationship with Christ under the pastoring of a woman, it is not rotten fruit! It is ripe, healthy, nourishing fruit that sustains, energizes, and equips. I have yet to find a hierarchalist who can tell me what the result of the "sin" of a woman pastor is. Seems to me it would be as obvious as those of the other sins I mentioned.

Ginosko -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 8:13:07 PM)
Cynthia, Not in this particular thread, but someone, in a different thread, pretty much said, “women are to be silent in the church, period.” Don't count me as part of that group, please. We still need a choir![:D]

cynthia -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 8:21:25 PM)
[sm=shocked.gif] Oh! Ginosko that is so naughty! [sm=icon_smile_sing.gif]

Ginosko -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 8:49:05 PM)
Hey Cynthia, I know this is off topic and I recognize you are in charge[;)] and you can slap my hand for it, but what is this "score" thingy on the left side of each post?

bzirk -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 9:19:26 PM)
So much for trying to imbed that picture. [:)] Nevermind. LOL!!

joint heir -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 9:23:38 PM)
Joint Heir, quote: It is incorrect to say that the desire for women to use their gifts to the fullest is an imported one...it is a biblical one...at least for the people that seem to be on this board... In Romans 12 we are taught to use our gifts in proportion to the amount of faith and grace we are given.....not to restrict them by gender.... (unless one wants to argue that men are given more of both) Is all there is to Church what goes on in the Assembly? Are the gifts only confined there? If so, not many gifts are of much use, are they, seeing that the order of service requires that everyone rest so much of their gifts during worship. Gifts are used predominantly outside of the Worship Assembly, in day to day fellowship where believers are serving one another. The restriction of exercise of gift in the Assembly does not permanently nullify all gifts. This is an over generalization. I am sorry.....first of all that #1, I am not going to be able to answer every post.....I just can't find the time...I will just try and read and pop in where appropriate.......and #2, I am am not yet caught up on everyones particular postion on this topic.... meaning I am not sure what you mean by assembly...I bet you have stated it before...but I can not recall[&:] to answer this though...if you are arguing that gifts are to be restricted in the assembly which I assuming to mean formal church services....then that is still a restriction above and beyond what we are taught to measure our gifts by....which is faith and grace...and if a woman is allowed to use her gifts outside the formal church service then that would mean that the general basis for restricting women's gifts (1st Timothy) would then be in error (at least the common understand of the text)... quote: and from 1 Corinthians 12:31 where we are all instructed to desire the greater gifts included in the list is the gift of apostle....which obviously is one of authority. I’ve always found it interesting that Paul never lays out which gifts are superior except that tongues are definitely inferior to prophecy because of their inferior value in edifying the body. I would think that this would make sense: any gift with the greater edifying potential would be greater The condition in the church is laid out that people were using tongues in an unedifying manner. I don’t think Paul is saying that he’d like for everybody to be a prophet, though, just that gifts that most soundly build up the body should be magnified by all members (the word “desire” could be rendered “esteem” and seems to fit better than the idea that everyone is trying to achieve a gift they do not have, which would be poor advice to a body he has already described as varied in gifts.) actually the word in greek does mean desire....the strongest use of the word means "to covet".... "to desire" is completely appropriate....why wouldn't we want to desire that God use us to reach people and enact His will?....it is in no way selfish to want to be used to help others (especially in life or death situations) Using this passage as a proof text for aspiring to pastor where other passages prohibit such aspiration is improper use of Scripture. so says you....I would say that you are using scripture inappropriately to defend what you believe to be truth ...yet instead you would be hindering christian growth and the spread of the gospel....obviously who is to say who is right?...this is why we are having this thread One passage does not argue with another, but all agree. Pitting one passage against another and bringing personal inclinations in as ally is not a fit foundation for a Christian doctrine. I agree all scripture agrees with all other..which is why I think you are interpreting and applying other scriptures in error.... As for “apostle” being in the list, that is an evidence that all of those gifts do not still exist. I would hold that this is true of prophecy as well, seeing the Word of God is complete and has been pronounced sufficient for all matters of faith and practice. Prophecy filled in the gaps where Scripture was incomplete. I won't go into the apostle issue....because it is off topic and head spinning (I read through the other threads)....but regardless if we are to desire the greater gifts and any position of authority is included...unless one can prove that women are exempt from this scripture....we have a problem....since scripture doesn't contradict itself...I say you have the problem in interpretation....or at the very least we all have the problem...and further study is required. quote: (unless one wants to argue that this verse was not written for women) Of course it is written for women and applies to women where application is not interdicted by other passages of Scripture. Many things are written for us that may not all be directly related to us for one reason or another, if for no other reason than for our instruction. I don’t believe there is a man’s Bible and a woman’s Bible contained within the canon. All of the Bible is for all believers. The Bible has a great deal to say about Jews. Most Christians are not Jews, but are edified by these passages and built up in the faith. Audience is clearly important.....are you suggesting the audience was only men? It would have been so easy to state clearly that women were not to desire offices that they were not given the faith or grace for...but Paul chose not to....I will always assume that a verse is directed at me....You have to rememeber that the early church did not receive every letter.....each letter was given to a specific church....if they received the letter that said desire the greater gifts they would not be expected to have received the information in 1st Timothy that women could not receive these gifts(or use them)...if this were neccessary informations Paul would have offered it to the women there to keep them out of sin quote: Women do not want to take over the church and run things their way...they don't want to just be equal for equality sake...they just want to be able to do what the Lord is calling them to do and use their gifts based on their faith and grace given to them...to help others grow and to bring people to Christ....without feeling condemned by their brothers and sisters for some perceived sin. This is laudable, but it does not relieve women (or anyone else, for that matter) from finding out where and in what manner God would have them minister. absolutely...we will all be judged for knowingly walking into error...but greater will those be judged who send the young and innocent into error...and women are taught from very early on what is allowed and what isn't....let us all be prepared to answer for our choices...we are all just trying to do God's will here.... The Bible is the rule of faith and practice. We have to be careful not to dictate doctrine by what we perceive about what we are or who we think we are or what our gifts may be. absolutely Is it a contradiction for God to give the gift of teaching to a woman and restrict her from using that gift in a certain place and at a certain time? Does that muzzle her? Can a woman only teach in the assembly? If that is her view, she need not be teaching at all because she does not understand the scope of her faith and life. The same is true of men. There are men who believe that the only place where speech can be used is in Church or on a mission field. Are there no weak Christians in the workplace, no unbelievers? Are their children without need of their gifts? What is it about a pulpit and an audience that actuates a gift? I think this kind of thinking is quite narrow. I think it is quite best to allow the Holy Spirit to determine these things...when to speak ...when to be still...when to stand.... Everyone is charged with the great commission....also we are charged to use out gifts to the full extent of grace and faith....we should do both....I do not think it is possible to turn gifts on and off...anymore than it is possible to turn of and on you leg or arm or neck....we each have our place in the body...and we function poorly when we turn parts off.

joint heir -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 9:38:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: i_believe quote: they just want to be able to do what the Lord is calling them to do and use their gifts based on their faith and grace given to them...to help others grow and to bring people to Christ A gifting and calling may be of the Lord but the application of these will not contradict His clear design for authority within the gathered assembly. Many people are called of the lord but fail to respond in the manner that He has directed. Some fear and do less, others covet and overstep their call... and some follow obediently. very true...but the "clear" design is what is up for debate here quote: Coveting can occur when one thinks equal value implies equal roles/responsibilities in the church. so true...and yet coveting can also occur when one is trying to protect power...or authority....(one wants what the other should have...definitions vary)...who is to say what is in all of our hearts ....I choose to assume that we all want the Lord's will here...and we are seeking truth... Ginosko: I do not know how to cut and paste your quote on this post also ...but your response was similar to i believe's.... I would say you are right that God would not call someone against His own will...but this thread is to argue what that will is.....you can not say that your belief is automatically right...especially in light of the scriptural evidence offered up ....There is plenty of proof that you may be wrong....this is why we are all on this thread....

bygraceiamsaved -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 10:46:36 PM)
quote: What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors. Interesting question that I don't think I've ever heard before. Actually good question. I'll have to chew on this one for awhile. Sadie: Post #22 very good quote and I agree. Bzirk: What you read in this quote is exactly what they meant.

jgarden -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 10:55:21 PM)
If Paul distinguishes between men and women in leadership positions, is he also implying that men and women have differing understandings of Christianity?

bygraceiamsaved -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 10:55:31 PM)
joint heir: Long posts, no scripture. Why?

charityagape -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 10:55:49 PM)
quote: Is it a contradiction for God to give the gift of teaching to a woman and restrict her from using that gift in a certain place and at a certain time? Does that muzzle her? Can a woman only teach in the assembly? If that is her view, she need not be teaching at all because she does not understand the scope of her faith and life. The same is true of men. There are men who believe that the only place where speech can be used is in Church or on a mission field. Are there no weak Christians in the workplace, no unbelievers? Are their children without need of their gifts? What is it about a pulpit and an audience that actuates a gift? I think this kind of thinking is quite narrow. So women can teach unblievers? I hardly think you're going to be able to take people aside in the office and teach. Plus, shouldn't women be at home with their children, teaching them? And all women are called to teach their children, as are all men, regardless of whether or not God has given them the gift of teaching for the edification of the church. I think we need better examples. If no one is claiming that the gifts are for men only, then we need examples of how a woman is to use a gift of teaching or prophesying or evangelizing and well apostle is still in debate by some as to if they even exist, much less can women be one. But if you believe their are apostles today, how could a woman be one?

oopsmartin -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 10:57:05 PM)
quote: Yes, indeed, Christ's submission to the Father is the divine model for us to understand the realation between the Father and The Son Actually no. Christ’s submission to the Father is to show us the degree of sacrifice that Christ gave for the purpose of our salvation. Phil. 2: 5(A)Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in (B)Christ Jesus, 6who, although He (C)existed in the (D)form of God, (E)did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but [a](F)emptied Himself, taking the form of a (G)bond-servant, and (H)being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, (I)He humbled Himself by becoming (J)obedient to the point of death, even (K)death on a cross. What did Christ empty Himself of? I suspect He laid aside some of His glory in order to “fit” into the form of His creation, humanity. So, Christ lowered Himself and in so doing He had to become something that He was not when in the full unity and glory of the Godhead; He became obedient. Obedience was not something present in the Godhead. There was no need as they were in perfect Holy unity. There was never one before or one after, never one more or one lessor. The point of Christ becoming obedient was to become obdient to His mission, to die for us so that we could receive salvation. That is what He became obedient to. Being clothed in weak frail human flesh was a new thing for God, an almost unexplainable miracle that will likely always be slightly beyond our ability to grasp how God did that. But you want to know how to understand the relation of God the Son and God the Father, check out Christ’s prayer. John 17: 20"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe in Me through their word, 21that they all may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me. 22And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them, that they may be one, even as We are one: 23I in them and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me. Holy Divine Perfect Agape Unity is the model for us to understand the relationship of God the Father to God the Son.

oopsmartin -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 10:59:43 PM)
quote: But if you believe their are apostles today, how could a woman be one? We call them Missionaries. And they've been doing it for years all over the world. What is that "Sadie Hawkins" missionary day? Is that the right woman? We give special donations to missionaries on that day.

charityagape -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 11:00:50 PM)
AMEN.

oopsmartin -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 11:06:27 PM)
quote: The condition in the church is laid out that people were using tongues in an unedifying manner. I don’t think Paul is saying that he’d like for everybody to be a prophet, though, just that gifts that most soundly build up the body should be magnified by all members (the word “desire” could be rendered “esteem” and seems to fit better than the idea that everyone is trying to achieve a gift they do not have, which would be poor advice to a body he has already described as varied in gifts.) actually the word in greek does mean desire....the strongest use of the word means "to covet".... "to desire" is completely appropriate....why wouldn't we want to desire that God use us to reach people and enact His will?....it is in no way selfish to want to be used to help others (especially in life or death situations) That is a good answer. But (tongue in cheek) hadn't you heard that the word "desire" means "desire to control". (OK tongue out of cheek) Advertisement over, back to regular programming. [sm=smile-l.gif][sm=silly.gif]

joint heir -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (4/20/2005 11:12:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved joint heir: Long posts, no scripture. Why? shrug.... because I am "wordy" and it was a discussion of scripture already referenced.... unfortunately God did not bless me with the gift of concise thought[&:]

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