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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 9:11:10 PM
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FreddieD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Freddie, I already DID!!!!!!11!111!1!!!
My brain hurts..... 
Well, than maybe someone else can tell me whether your answer is a "yes" or "no", because I can't make "heads or tails" out of it.
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 9:12:55 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Just give me a "word" for "word" dispute with Gibson quotes.
I already did.
quote:
You tried a "drop kick", and since you did not score you wish to go back to the original game plan.
The original question was what Gibson claimed that Palin said - as Palin's original quote had nothing to do with claiming our leaders were sending them out on a 'task from God' contra Gibson's statement, the game was over before you took the field.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 9:21:34 PM
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FreddieD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I already did.
Than I don't see your dispute.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
- as Palin's original quote had nothing to do with claiming our leaders were sending them out on a 'task from God'
Sure it does. You haven't proven otherwise.
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 9:26:03 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Than I don't see your dispute.
Well then apparently you aren't reading carefully.
quote:
Sure it does. You haven't proven otherwise.
The quotes are plainly not the same (certainly not 'exactly' the same as contended by Gibson); point proven.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 9:42:44 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Freddie, I already DID!!!!!!11!111!1!!!
My brain hurts.....
Well, than maybe someone else can tell me whether your answer is a "yes" or "no", because I can't make "heads or tails" out of it.
FreddieD
Well, usually when a person uses the word "yes" when responding to a yes/no question, they mean "yes".
quote:
FreddieD:
So let me ask you this question. Are we in Iraq because of God’s will? Is it God’s task?
quote:
ManimalX:
And yes, whenever the military is used to fight injustice, when it is used to help those who can't help themselves, it is a task from God.
That was my plain answer to your 2nd question.
The plain answer to your 1st question:
quote:
Jhud:
discerning God's will is a matter of discerning wisdom from consulting His Word, prayer, and counsel - and God's will applies to the situation one is in, not the one that might have been in otherwise. We are in Iraq; so we have to discern what God's will is now, as we move forward.
If it was any plainer, it would be Kansas.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 9:47:10 PM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well then apparently you aren't reading carefully.
I'm sorry that I can't split hairs with you, but neither will most of the country.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
The quotes are plainly not the same (certainly not 'exactly' the same as contended by Gibson); point proven.
"Plainly not the same", "certainly not 'exactly'"? I don't think you are sure.
When you find out what you are talking about than you can talk to the great
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 9:50:09 PM
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ManimalX
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I think Freddie just likes to have fun saying inflammatory things. He has to be a classic drive-by.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 9:50:53 PM
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FreddieD
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Is it fighting injustice?
Oh, thankyou for your straight forward response.
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 9:52:05 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7785
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Plainly not the same", "certainly not 'exactly'"? I don't think you are sure.
When you find out what you are talking about than you can talk to the great
Let me break it down for you since we seem to be dealing with an English as second language issue here:
Gibson: “Our national leaders are sending (U.S. soldiers) on a task that is from God."
Palin: "Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God".
So she asks them to ’pray’. For what a reader of average intelligence might ask?
Well, if they have a modicum of sense, first for “our military men and women”. Anything else?
Well, even the poorest of readers would notice the word ‘also’, an indicator that what follows is related to what came before. What came before? Well, ‘pray’. So ‘Pray also that our leaders are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God”.
Not that they are sending them on such a task, but that they would.
Any other qualifications?
Certainly – she next says, “That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan.” So she is saying neither that the task or the plan are from God, but that we would pray that our leaders make such plans in alignment with God’s will; certainly a good desire for any believer.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 10:01:12 PM
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FreddieD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Palin: "Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God".
Yes, she hopes our mission in Iraq to be a "task that is from God", right?
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 10:01:54 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
Is it fighting injustice?
FreddieD
Yes.
Am I allowed to expand my "yes", or is that against FreddieD policy?
quote:
Oh, thankyou for your straight forward response.
You're welcome.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 10:21:39 PM
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FreddieD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
Is it fighting injustice?
FreddieD
Yes.
Than where were we when genocide occurred in Darfur? Did we not received a phone call from God?
I don't believe that we are in Iraq for "truth, justice, and the American way". We are there for the oil.
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/14/2008 11:32:13 PM
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ManimalX
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I knew you were going to drop the Darfur card :)
There are plenty of "what about X" scenarios. Whether we are or we aren't intervening militarily in X doesn't change that liberating Iraq was and is a just cause. I wish our country could step in and do something militarily in Darfur, but we aren't. May God forgive us.
As for being there "for oil", well, that is nothing but an unsubstantiated opinion.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/15/2008 9:37:11 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7785
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Than where were we when genocide occurred in Darfur? Did we not received a phone call from God?
I don't believe that we are in Iraq for "truth, justice, and the American way". We are there for the oil.
Actually, if our motivation were oil, then we would be in Sudan as well, as the conflict there is largely fueled by arms and military training from China in exchange for Sudanese oil.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/15/2008 6:41:43 PM
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FreddieD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, if our motivation were oil, then we would be in Sudan as well, as the conflict there is largely fueled by arms and military training from China in exchange for Sudanese oil.
Nice try but Iraq has the largest oil supply.
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/15/2008 7:56:24 PM
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ManimalX
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So where is all of our new Iraqi oil? Where is the money from selling it?
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/15/2008 8:34:07 PM
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FreddieD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
So where is all of our new Iraqi oil? Where is the money from selling it?
You see, here is how it works.
A plantation owner tells his slave to go out in the fields and plant, cultivate, and harvest the crops. Than bring the harvest back to the plantation owner and he will sell it in the market and reap the profits. To insure that the slave will be around for the next harvest the plantation owner gives him the crumbs of the profit. The slave than asks, “Where is the money from selling it?”
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/16/2008 12:26:47 AM
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ManimalX
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Your analogy would work, except that Iraq is keeping its oil money. In terms of your analogy, the big bad plantation owner isn't making any money of off his slave labor.
So again, if we went to war "for oil", where is our oil and profit?
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/16/2008 6:28:10 PM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Your analogy would work, except that Iraq is keeping its oil money. In terms of your analogy, the big bad plantation owner isn't making any money of off his slave labor.
So again, if we went to war "for oil", where is our oil and profit?
Well there is transportation, refining, marketing, taxing, price fixing, and other ways that the plantation owner can skim off cash from oil. Just keep it flowing.
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/16/2008 6:59:49 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1268
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
Well there is transportation, refining, marketing, taxing, price fixing, and other ways that the plantation owner can skim off cash from oil. Just keep it flowing.
FreddieD
Ok, fair enough. So, what transportation benefits are we getting? How is US refining benefiting? Where is our market share? Where is our benefit from price fixing?
I understand that you have the opinion that we went to war for oil, but what I have been trying to ask you is what facts do you have to base that opinion upon?
I know we aren't seeing any oil revenue from Iraq. The left-wing blogosphere was all a-twitter a few months ago about how much positive oil revenue Iraq was generating, and how we shouldn't be doing anything for them because they were rich enough to do it themselves.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/16/2008 9:05:22 PM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
OK, fair enough. So, what transportation benefits are we getting? How is US refining benefiting? Where is our market share? Where is our benefit from price fixing?
I understand that you have the opinion that we went to war for oil, but what I have been trying to ask you is what facts do you have to base that opinion upon?
I know we aren't seeing any oil revenue from Iraq. The left-wing blogosphere was all a-twitter a few months ago about how much positive oil revenue Iraq was generating, and how we shouldn't be doing anything for them because they were rich enough to do it themselves.
OK,... proof?
THE DEBATE: PROOF - WAR ON IRAQ IS FOR OIL
"President Bush's Cabinet agreed in April 2001 that 'Iraq remains
a destabilising influence to the flow of oil to international markets
from the Middle East' and because this is an unacceptable risk to
the US 'military intervention' is necessary."[1]
If you disagree with that than lets go and ask Alan Greenspan.
Times Newspapers: Alan Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil
“I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil,”
But he could be a closet radical liberal. So lets try McCain.
The Huffington Post: McCain Implies Iraq War Is For Oil
My friends, I will have an energy policy that we will be talking about, which will eliminate our dependence on oil from the Middle East that will - that will then prevent us - that will prevent us from having ever to send our young men and women into conflict again in the Middle East.
Satisfied? Now, may we see your evidences that supports your argument.
FreddieD
< Message edited by FreddieD -- 9/16/2008 9:11:47 PM >
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/17/2008 10:06:32 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Freddie, you gave me a conspiracy-theory laden website and two opinion pieces as proof.
The first has several links that don't go to the articles they supposedly reference, and most of the ones that do work go to articles from 2003 or before that use words and phrases like, "X company could make $Y", or "X company might be involved in Y post-war endeavor." I didn't follow every single link, but did look at a lot of them and they are all speculation from left-leaning sources.
As for the two opinion pieces, you can line up 10,000 people who have the opinion that the war was specifically and primarily for oil, but I would still ask them for the same proof I am asking you for. That is lacking from their statements.
Again: As of now, today, September 17, 2008, who has gotten rich of off Iraq and how much have they made, and what kind of oil benefits has the US seen?
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/17/2008 7:07:03 PM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Freddie, you gave me a conspiracy-theory laden website and two opinion pieces as proof.
The first has several links that don't go to the articles they supposedly reference, and most of the ones that do work go to articles from 2003 or before that use words and phrases like, "X company could make $Y", or "X company might be involved in Y post-war endeavor." I didn't follow every single link, but did look at a lot of them and they are all speculation from left-leaning sources.
As for the two opinion pieces, you can line up 10,000 people who have the opinion that the war was specifically and primarily for oil, but I would still ask them for the same proof I am asking you for. That is lacking from their statements.
Again: As of now, today, September 17, 2008, who has gotten rich of off Iraq and how much have they made, and what kind of oil benefits has the US seen?
As much as your are dismay at the evidence that I have provided may I remind you that you haven’t produced a thread of evidence supporting your opinion. Your philosophy as to American’s actions shows inconsistency on the global scene. Just merely “wishful thinking”.
Be it that it is my opinion and others, at lest I am in good company. Incidentally, Halliburton not doing too bad.
FreddieD
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RE: I wonder ... - 9/17/2008 8:28:18 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/25/2005
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So in other words you can't provide any evidence that Dubya took America to war in Iraq "for oil" (your words) and you admit that it is mere opinion?
This little discussion was not about my claims. I wasn't the one that made the assertion that we are in Iraq "for oil", so there is no burden of proof on my shoulders. You provided as "proof" some 5-year-old articles that were speculation, a paragraph article that Alan Greenspan (a liberal) has an opinion, and a quote from John McCain (which according to his own words was about the Gulf War, not the current war).
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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