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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 10:38:57 AM
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KHutcheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: KHutcheson
Thank you, notmycity, but you didn't answer my question.
Please re-read my response. I answered your question.
Ever hear the expression, "All hat and no cattle?" Female subordinationists claim that God has given them authority over their wives (although not one can cite me the verse where God commands them to exercise it). But what authority do they really have?
Let's look at an example of how authority works. The IRS has the authority to collect taxes from you. First, they're nice about it. But then if you haven't paid what you owe, they send you a stern letter. You still don't comply. So they garnish your wages. They can also seize your property and sell it for the taxes owed. If you are totally rebellious and defiant, they put you in jail. The IRS has real authority, because they can enforce it. They can back it up.
But no matter what a husband does, he has no God-given means to enforce his (so-called) authority over his wife. If I in my authority order my wife to do something that requires her obedience, and she refuses, there's really not much I can do to force her compliance (legally in the US, that is). Bluster as I might that I have authority over her, I really have no power to compel her to obey my authority. That is a hollow authority, no authority at all.
The emperor has no clothes.
Kevin
_____________________________
"The grace of God means something like: Here is your life. You might never have been, but you are because the party wouldn't have been complete without you." (Frederick Buechner)
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 1:08:26 PM
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PDChaplain
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Myka, you said this ......
"There are very few egalitarian resources in Christian book stores."
Why do you think that is, sister? Would there possibly be any valid reasons for this? 
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 1:22:52 PM
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PDChaplain
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Kevin, in all sincerity .... I do believe you mean well and you are entirely convinced that passive "leadership" is the way husbands should go.
Let's look at a portion of the Ephesians 5 passage, shall we?
"Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything."
Kevin, with all due respect, you nor I nor anyone else .... no matter how softhearted or well meaning ..... even with the purest of intent .... have the authority to change the Word of God.
In that vein, don't you think that Jesus is HIS sovereignty has the ability to bless the wife obeying His Word ..... and the ability to withhold blessings from the wayward and prideful wife?
A very wise, older sister in the Lord told me something akin to this once, Kevin ......
"If I choose to ignore my husband's leadership role, then I am deciding to disobey the Lord. If I deny my husband, I am denying Jesus. The word tells me to be subject to my husband, AS IN THE LORD. I cannot honestly say I am abiding AS IN THE LORD if I refuse to subject myself to my husband. I am lying. I am deceived. I cannot be blessed. My marriage cannot be blessed. I cannot receive from Him. I cannot discern His voice. I am prideful. I am a Jezebel. Why would I choose to deny my husband his role in my house? I would be a foolish woman!"
Kevin, do you REALLY want to put yourself into the place of encouraging wives to neglect the Word of God? Your OWN wife???? I would humbly suggest that you think this over and pray before answering ..... and if you think that the healthy mode of servant-leadership is somehow out of "vogue" .... then I humbly suggest that you go back to square one with your theology in this issue.
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 1:35:19 PM
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PDChaplain
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As quoted from CBMW ......
http://www.cbmw.org/resources/articles/cberesponse.php
"Again it seems to us that CBE is seeking to strengthen its case through the fallacy of the excluded middle. For example, CBE pictures, on the one hand, two humble spouses, each seeking to consider the other better than oneself; on the other hand, it pictures two spouses where one seeks "to dominate the other" and "impose a decision upon the other." In this way the CBE position is made to look like the only loving one, because the real middle position, the one we take, is excluded. We do not counsel any man to "dominate" his wife or to "impose" his decisions on her. We speak of a husband bearing the responsibility of servant-leadership and a wife gladly affirming that leadership. Moreover, we urge wives never to follow a husband's lead into sin. When we say that a husband should bear the responsibility to break a decisional deadlock, we do not mean that it will be without much interaction with his wife, or that he will always break it according to his own preference. Responsibility to lead is not synonymous with getting your way."
This contains a systematic and Biblical response to the positions of CBE. It is respectful, balanced, and full of Christian love and charity.
I would strongly urge proponents of BOTH platforms to read this link and make an informed ..... and prayerful ..... decision. 
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 1:37:39 PM
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sjdawson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PDChaplain
Kevin, in all sincerity .... I do believe you mean well and you are entirely convinced that passive "leadership" is the way husbands should go.
Let's look at a portion of the Ephesians 5 passage, shall we?
"Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything."
Kevin, with all due respect, you nor I nor anyone else .... no matter how softhearted or well meaning ..... even with the purest of intent .... have the authority to change the Word of God.
In that vein, don't you think that Jesus is HIS sovereignty has the ability to bless the wife obeying His Word ..... of the ability to withhold blessings from the wayward and prideful wife?
A very wise, older sister in the Lord told me something akin to this once, Kevin ......
"If I choose to ignore my husband's leadership role, then I am deciding to disobey the Lord. If I deny my husband, I am denying Jesus. The word tells me to be subject to my husband, AS IN THE LORD. I cannot honestly say I am abiding AS IN THE LORD if I refuse to subject myself to my husband. I am lying. I am deceived. I cannot be blessed. My marriage cannot be blessed. I cannot receive from Him. I cannot discern His voice. I am prideful. I am a Jezebel. Why would I choose to deny my husband his role in my house? I would be a foolish woman!"
Kevin, do you REALLY want to put yourself into the place of encouraging wives to neglect the Word of God? Your OWN wife???? I would humbly suggest that you think this over and pray before answering ..... and if you think that the healthy mode of servant-leadership is somehow out of "vogue" .... then I humbly suggest that you go back to square one with your theology in this issue.
PD-
The fallacy that you're promoting is that all leadership looks the same. Different leadership STYLES can be involved. Even in a work environment, I tend to lead by empowering others. It is not a wimpy style. It requires you as a leader to understand peopel's strengths and weaknesses. Ultimately, to use each individual to their best ability. Empowering someone does not necessarily mean that they are usurping power. It means that you as a leader are allowing them latitude.
Simply put, you're trying to make all married couples look the same and act the same. In my case I don't HAVE to say "submit" because my wife and I agree the vast majority of the time. If we agree where does the submission come in?
I would suggest that you and not my city take a look at HOW Jesus dealt with His disciples. You're trying to do this backwards. How did His disciples respond and how did He treat them. You'll find it's more balanced than you think.
Steve
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 1:46:18 PM
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PDChaplain
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Steve, if you are in fact in a leadership position at work, then surely you have the authority and the unction to make a FINAL decision when a concensus cannot be reached. If you are not, then frankly your leadership is flawed.
Harry Truman had a sign posted in a prominent place in the Oval Office. That sign said, quite simply but powerfully, "The Buck Stops Here". Like him or not, Truman has gone down in history as one of our most decisive and able leaders. Contrast his leadership style with that of the effiminate Bill Clinton. We are STILL reaping the whirlwind from his passivity, doublemindedness, and emasculation.
The church and family has suffered greatly from the influence of the pro-fem platform, Steve. There are VERY valid reasons why the egalitarian interpretation of headship is not preached from reputable pulpits nor available in reputable Christian media outlets.
You must ask the question ...... "Why is this, if this "revelation" was brought on by the Holy Spirit and if it equates to a healthy Christian family and church?"
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 1:51:21 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Why are you so frightened, PD?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 1:59:08 PM
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PDChaplain
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Covann_Meshuga ..... you are confusing "frightened" with "balanced".
Why are you so resistant to this?
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 2:11:16 PM
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PDChaplain
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I find point #3 of the CBMW statement to validate my earlier observation about the egalitarians disturbing habit of using the extreme to invalidate the norm. CBMW rightfully calls this mischaracterization of CBE as the "repeated fallacy of the excluded middle" ..... which is the balanced and healthy mode of servant' leadership. As the modern saying goes .... "Perception is everything" ..... and this deliberate mischaracterization of TRUE servant-leadership is meant to portray all complementarians as abusive or somehow "not respectful of the sisters". 
"3. We are troubled by the repeated fallacy of the excluded middle: the strengthening of one's position by exposing the shortcomings of an ugly alternative while giving the impression that there are no other alternatives when in truth there are. The CBE statement is a strangely oblique and ambiguous document. Chauvinistic abuses to our right are deplored. Controversial egalitarian convictions to our left are implicitly suggested in non-controversial language. But we do not recognize our own position as either the one suggested or the one rejected.
Almost all the denunciations in the CBE declaration refer to relational abuses that we reject, too. Thus CBE distances itself most often from a corruption of Biblical complementarity that we do not share, so that the reader is left wondering what CBE really thinks about a position like ours that rejects those same corruptions. Some examples:
The "rulership" of man over woman is rightly rejected by CBE as part of the curse, but there is no explicit denial of our affirmation that the loving headship of husbands is rooted in creation before the curse.
The "improper use of power and authority by spouses" is rightly rejected, but there is no explicit reckoning with the proper use of authority in a husband's loving leadership in the home, which is at the heart of CBMW's vision.
CBE says the husband's headship is to be carried out as "self-giving love and service." Yes, but no explicit denial is made of our affirmation that this is the form of a husband's leadership, not an alternative to it."
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 2:11:47 PM
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myka
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Where are all the Evangelical churches who are teaching egalitarianism??? My point is that the Evangelical church by and large teaches complemenarianism, and there is no difference in divorce rates for those who claim to be Christians and those who do not claim to be Christians. There is also research indicating that traditional marriages are typically unhappy whereas egalitarian marriages are typically happy.
Personally, my dh and I followed the Christian marriage books advice, and we had so many problems in our relationship and in our life together. Neither of us was "rebelling"; I was submissive to all he decided. He is also a "natural leader" type, and I am more naturally inclined to "submit". We have been blessed in unity through our practice of the more egalitarian model. He sacrifices and I submit. Neither of us is a unilateral decision maker (I'm not sure where the verse is about decision making), but we wait until we reach agreement on a decision before acting.
I think that many men are afraid of sacrificing themselves. Words like "wimp", "emmasculate" tend to indicate to me that there is some measure of fear for these men. It is hard to give up control over your life, but following Christ demands our life.
So, I have both experienced the difference, and found that research also supports this way for marital relationships.
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 2:21:52 PM
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PDChaplain
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Myka, the problem we have is NOT found in most reputable pulpits .... with some notable exceptions within the denominational community. The problem lies first of all in the products of the last two generations ..... about 40 years ..... of the pro-fem model being taught as "healthy" in many of our major religious institutions. Most VETERANS of the faith see the fallacy of the egalitarian movement and they rightfully stay away from it. What we are seeing, sadly, is a whole NEW leadership now in play who have been indoctrinated in this platform ..... thus, we see egalitarian thought as being just one of many attacks against the family and church in the last two generations.
As time goes, and as the Bride is being prepared and as apostacy grows, we WILL be seeing the pro-fem platform being validated more and more in the mainstream Christian community. Hopefully, the Father will give the Son the go-ahead (see the ladder of authority??? ) to come and gather His church BEFORE we see a wider spread of this error.
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 2:40:03 PM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
Where are all the Evangelical churches who are teaching egalitarianism??? My point is that the Evangelical church by and large teaches complemenarianism, and there is no difference in divorce rates for those who claim to be Christians and those who do not claim to be Christians. There is also research indicating that traditional marriages are typically unhappy whereas egalitarian marriages are typically happy.
Personally, my dh and I followed the Christian marriage books advice, and we had so many problems in our relationship and in our life together. Neither of us was "rebelling"; I was submissive to all he decided. He is also a "natural leader" type, and I am more naturally inclined to "submit". We have been blessed in unity through our practice of the more egalitarian model. He sacrifices and I submit. Neither of us is a unilateral decision maker (I'm not sure where the verse is about decision making), but we wait until we reach agreement on a decision before acting.
I think that many men are afraid of sacrificing themselves. Words like "wimp", "emmasculate" tend to indicate to me that there is some measure of fear for these men. It is hard to give up control over your life, but following Christ demands our life.
So, I have both experienced the difference, and found that research also supports this way for marital relationships.
Traditional does not always mean complimentarian - I would not consider myself traditional on the topic of marital roles, but I am complimentarian.
My creation as a woman (Eve) is a compliment (helper) to my husband (Adam.)
When I think of tradition, I think of the whole silent, no opinion, jump when my husband says anything, etc.
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 2:57:17 PM
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PDChaplain
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Doinkdom, this is exactly what the pro-fems WANT to leave as the image of wifely submission and fulfilling her role as helper. The more learned ones become adept at deflection and sidetracking from the overall, healthy mode of servant-leadership. This is learned behavior on their parts, courtesy of those "visionaries" who lead them. 
It is this type of deliberate mischaracterization that CBMW so clearly points out ...... as noted above.
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 3:03:35 PM
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doinkdom
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I am familiar with CBMW and there is a chart they had with like 4 or even 5 different categories defining marital roles and their specific names. It was really good...maybe I can dig it up somewhere.
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 3:40:20 PM
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myka
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Is it in Biblical Foundations by Wayne Grudem? pp. 62-63
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 3:42:01 PM
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PDChaplain
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Myka, can you please post the link? Thanks!
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 3:48:14 PM
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myka
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It is a pdf book on the CBMW website. I can't get the specific page, but I can link to the pdf file.
Biblical Foundations by Wayne Grudem
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 3:54:09 PM
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PDChaplain
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Ok, thanks!
Here is a fine writing by a sister in the Lord .....
http://www.pricelesswoman.com/Bible_Study_Pages/What_is_Wifely_Submission.html
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 4:18:36 PM
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hnt
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quote:
The teaching of the New Testament clearly shows that women are to be respected, revered, and treated as equals with men. Unfortunately, many husbands have not gotten the message. They degrade their wives by neglect or with insensitive and abusive treatment. One cause of the feminist movement may have been that men abandoned God's design. When God presented Eve to Adam in the Garden, Adam received her as a gift of great value to God and him. When husbands, particularly Christian husbands, do not treat their wives as a precious gift from God and helpmate, they can cause those wives to search for a way to find significance and value as persons, often outside God's will.
I think the women’s movement DID start because of the treatment of women at the time. People of our day take for granted what those women fought for a time now, and then attempt brush anyone with some extreme brush when you use the “F” word now. I don’t think the men were within God’s will either! I see that is a response to that in some ways, and their actions aren’t without blame as well.
I personally see WAY to much blame shifting myself! We are all responsible for our own roles and responsibilities, as we all well know! Our roles and responsibilities are not conditional on the other party! The tendency I tend to see if when people reach out for fellowship in a time of extreme hurt or confusion within their relationship is that others tend to place THEIR behavior as the excuse for the treatment they receive! I don’t think this is a gender issue either! I see this happening to both genders, and it seems that accountability is completely lost in most cases!
Domineering spouses aren’t addressed as much as they should be, and the other spouse is left with comments like, “If you didn’t act this way maybe they wouldn’t either!” They never address the ROOT of the issues with either party, and true fellowship during these hurting and confusing times are placed back onto the families. Simplistic advice given doesn’t help anyone!
I think the tendency to do this in a lot of cases tends to enables bad behavior, and then leaves the other party holding the bag! They tend to never focus on both parties, but tend to beat up the one that is trying to reach out! There are times you see very good posts even here in response, but I see way to many just smashing these people to pieces in comparison as a great example of this!
Do I think that only happens on this board or at church? NOPE! You see it all over the place, but in church people had that extra burden of their faith to really cream them with! That is what I see as far as WHY the divorce rate could be going up also! I tend to see that a lot, and when people are down you have to find a way of reaching them instead of beating them to death!
I guess to me if people want to find one portion to blame things on like feminism I can’t do anything about it. It seems strange to me that they tell others to look to themselves FIRST, and then never do that with their own advice giving! I see faith followers just BEATING others up in a lot of cases, and then they wonder what happened! To me they are NOT doing their best in their role as people of fellowship, and are leaving these people with a not so strong support system in place! They can’t FIX their issues, but they can be a supportive and loving to the person that is hurting! Making them feel worse, and ignoring big issues isn’t going to do much for the faith in anything! God asked us to have an active role in each other’s lives, and I see to many excuses handed out instead of doing just that!
quote:
This is the healthy mode of servant-leadership for the husband. I practice this in my marriage. So, I have no desire or need to "demand submission" as those using the worst-case scenarios are prone to use as an example. Most men modeling a REAL servant's heart to their families find a certain compatibility from their wives. Yes ..... and sadly .... there ARE some examples of men using this healthy mode who still find resistance ..... their wives have the Jezebel spirit ..... but even then they must humble themselves and continue to treat this type of wayward wife as Christ treats the church.
YES the tendency does go both ways, and YES you are still responsible for holding up what God has asked you to do! The problem I see is that people tend to place so much attention on MAYBE you aren’t “doing” instead of possibly helping them look for solutions! I mean to me its OKAY if you are confused as to HOW to help, but I see the excuse of “you aren’t doing your role good enough” as a way of enabling and not acknowledging bad behavior on the other side of the equation! When they do that its blame shifting! It doesn’t acknowledge that people are responsible for their own actions! THIS isn’t a gender issue either! I see that happening on BOTH ends of the equation! People tend to NOT acknowledge things, and then them to do their roles as an answer….leaves people in the cold. Those advice givers are not following the sense of fellowship God intended either! To me it’s a double edged sword!
Conversely, there are examples of Godly wives who humble themselves before Jesus and their husbands in Biblical submission, only to find their hubbies are milquetoasts ..... passive .... doubleminded ..... unstable in all their ways. This sad spiritual state of their husbands does not give these wives the "right" to reject their unction to submit and obey .... with the one caviat that they have no instruction to obey things DIRECTLY PROHIBITED BY SCRIPTURE. That ONE "out" for these wives is the exception, not the rule.
That maybe true to a point, but faith followers do not have the right to shift the blame of other’s actions onto the spouse that is reaching out for help with just EXCUSES either! I see that everyday, and people just refuse to acknowledge that this could have a HUGE impact on divorce rates as well! God is a HUGE part of our lifes (and most important), but he didn’t mean for HIM to be the only part of it! People’s advice and how their handle issues brought before them tend to make them FEEL that way at times! I see people to easily brushing others aside with excuses of feminism, selfishness, not enough faith, not a true enough Christian, etc instead of attempting to FEEL the pain and agony those people are feeling! I think we lost our empathy capacity myself! If it was truly there – we would be addressing things in the proper fashion and people might be surprised at the results!
I don't think either gender is more to blame than other! Personally, I feel the way they address the issues is completely OFF! It leaves people alone in their pain, and breaks them off from the fellowship that God intended. People can say GOD should be enough, but would God talk about fellowship with others if it wasn't important also!?
Its like the fellowship tends to ignore the elephant in the living room! They ask others to ignore it, and they will happily do that also! Somehow that just doesn't work, and I don't think God wanted us to ignore things either! We may not find all the answers, but God will show us ways of making things a bit better!
When a women comes to others in pain over treatment at home - she is told to HONOR him better! When a man comes to others in pain over treatment at home - he is told to LOVE her better! Nothing wrong with that overall, but if that is the only advice given.....and they are left with that only and no other tools or support....why are we wondering WHY these people are leaving? I see it pretty plain, and I'm confused as to WHY others can't see it!
There are alot of good people that understand the spirit of what the word is trying to convey to all! Then you have those that tend to place such an extremes as a way of blocking the way of dealing with things! Do we have to deal with the extremes at times? SURE we do! Do we have to deal with everything in that mode? NOPE, but there is this huge tendency to do just that! LOL and we wonder why it backfires!
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 5:08:04 PM
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hnt
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quote:
Now, if the husband if doing filling his role as husband according to the word of God, and if the wife is filling her role according to the word of God, then they are in one accord according to God's will for marriage. It's when wives try to get around their role that that unity is broken.
I have a problem with this! The sentence should read if either try to get around their role the unity is broken!
 As if it never happens the other way! My goodness!
She can still mention the rest of her message, but truly if EITHER party does this unity can be broken!
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h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 6:32:20 PM
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myka
Posts: 811
Status: offline
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From the priceless woman:
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If there really were two leaders on this country, both with equal powers, then it would not take long before things would get out of hand. There would be a split, with everything being torn apart because you've got two people trying to make decisions and be the leader.
I can see it being a problem if each person was looking out for their own interests without regard for the other. In other words, not considering the other person. However, if each spouse is putting the other first, it really isn't a problem.
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Hopefully, the Father will give the Son the go-ahead
This is an important aspect of the complementarian thought, also. It would off the topic of this thread, though.
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 7:41:34 PM
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suzanned
Posts: 205
Status: offline
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Submission was not a part of the original design. It was the consequence of the fall.
I find it interesting that traditionalists have such a difficult time with submission. We are all called to submit to one another. Leadership isnt a "given" but built by maturity, integrity, character and giftedness.
We "hang out" with other Christians that follow the egalitarian model of marriage. However we we have also been invited into the homes of couples who practice the "traditional" mindset of marriage. It doesnt take long to see and hear the difference. I dont read this type of marriage model in the NT nor do I see it as a wonderful way to live out a marriage in daily life.
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Why would women need to learn what men do and why do men think they need to do the same about women?
This is the mentality that comes from the traditionalist mindset. Sad really
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RE: RE:Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2007 7:48:20 PM
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sjdawson
Posts: 67
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PDChaplain
Steve, if you are in fact in a leadership position at work, then surely you have the authority and the unction to make a FINAL decision when a concensus cannot be reached. If you are not, then frankly your leadership is flawed.
There is one place where you severely error. The assumption that SOMEONE HAS to make a final decision. At least in my marriage most of the time we're in agreement, if we're not then we discuss it and work it out. It's hard to describe my relationship with my wife because you see it in different terms than I do. If 2 people truly love, honor, respect, and trust each otherthey will automatically think of the best for their mate. There are certain decisions that I leave up to my wife because she's better at it than I am. I trust her judgement in those areas so therefore I let her make the decision. You may think that's wrong and that I'm not asserting authority, that's fine with me. Frankly, I've been through too much in my 24 years plus being married to the same woman that I've learned our strengths and weaknesses and know what works
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The church and family has suffered greatly from the influence of the pro-fem platform, Steve. There are VERY valid reasons why the egalitarian interpretation of headship is not preached from reputable pulpits nor available in reputable Christian media outlets.
That's where you are too myopic. You see the problem as strictly feminism. I have sat with one too many male pastors who felt that if a woman was bounced around a few times that she should perservere as a good witness. That if she had been submitting better she wouldn't have gotten beat by her ape er.. her husband. The extreme feminists may have it wrong, but I've seen way too many fundamentalists/evangelicals that have heavily contributed to the problem. Ya really gotta get off of the feminist thing at get a broader picture of what's wrong with marriage today.
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You must ask the question ...... "Why is this, if this "revelation" was brought on by the Holy Spirit and if it equates to a healthy Christian family and church?"
Actually, I checked out the CBE site and there are some fairly well known evangelicals that have endorsed them. Just because something is widely taught doesn't mean it's inspired.
Steve
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