quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: huangshan

Hypothetical Utopian solution that people could work towards:

No one has an unwanted pregnancy, and abortion is still legal (albeit never used, due to the lack of unwanted pregnancies).

Everyone is happy.

Likely, realistic solution where people meet halfway:

Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which reduces the number of abortions.

You will never, EVER get the rabid anti-abortion crowd to agree with most forms of birth control;
They consider them abortion as well.
I'd be surprised if you could get even a few of them to agree barrier contraception is a good thing.
Oh, they'll argue with this post, but they'll never say anything about contraception.

You're making it up. Even Catholic catechism does not "consider" birth control "abortion." Birth control is widely accepted among other pro-lifers.

quote:

Most Americans are not aware that the Pill and other chemical "contraceptives" cause millions of "non-surgical" abortions each year in the early weeks of pregnancy. If you are using the Pill, Depo-Provera or Norplant, you need to know the truth about how these products work.
Pro-Life America

quote:


The Catholic Church and other religious institutions have long preached against most forms of birth control beyond abstinence or the rhythm method
Health providers make stand against birth control

quote:

American Life League hosted a press conference for its first Protest the Pill Day, ramping up for the protests scheduled to occur nationwide outside facilities that distribute the
pill. In partnership with Pro-Life Wisconsin and Pharmacists for Life, ALL seeks to raise awareness about the abortifacient nature of the pill and the intrauterine device, which is responsible for killing preborn children in their earliest days.American Life League: The Pill Kills Babies

quote:

A Bush administration proposal aimed at protecting health-care workers who object to abortion, and to birth-control methods they consider tantamount to abortion, has escalated a bitter debate over the balance between religious freedom and patients' rights. The most controversial section defines abortion as "any of the various procedures -- including the prescription, dispensing and administration of any drug or the performance of any procedure or any other action -- that results in the termination of life of a human being in utero between conception and natural birth, whether before or after implantation."

That definition would include most forms of hormonal birth control and the IUD, which most major medical groups believe do not constitute abortion because they primarily affect ovulation or fertilization and not an embryo once it has implanted in the womb.
Bush administration proposal

quote:

Senators Barack Obama and Claire McCaskill proposed a piece of stand-alone legislature entitled the Prevention Through Affordable Access Act, which would restore access to discounted drugs for university and safety-net clinics. The act is co-sponsored by 15 senators, including Hillary Clinton and Oregon's Ron Wyden.
http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/Content?oid=479621&category=22101

quote:

I am not "making it up".
You are, sadly, ignorant of what's going on around you.

And you will notice that No One wants to talk about birth control as a means to stop abortion in the United States;
At least on this Forum.
By the way, Obama did more than just talk -

quote:

And you will notice that No One wants to talk about birth control as a means to stop abortion in the United States;
At least on this Forum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhippie

quote:

ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
I wish we had this much zeal against getting pregnant outside of marriage (popularized and acceptable because of Miss Bristol), fornication, adultery, pornography, and lack of guidance (spiritual and parental). Being against abortion is easy; being against some of the things that could eventually lead a young girl/lady to an abortion is much harder to deal with. Honestly we have ignored that aspect of this process because many of us within the body of Christ have those things being strongholds in our respective lives. So many of us (of course not anyone here on Crosswalk ) choose to make abortion(the end result) our 1 because it’s better and easier to deal with instead of going to the root of the problem.

This is such a gross, revolting mischaracterization of anything close to reality that I am hard pressed not to violate TOS in responding. How dare you imply that Bristol has made teen pregnancy popular and acceptable!! NO WHERE has anyone suggested such drivel! You should be ashamed of yourself for even having the audacity to say such a thing

quote:

ORIGINAL: ken1906_4

I know that the original poster did not attend for this thread to become and argument about abortion. I apologize to the thread starter for continuing this tangent, but here is how I feel about it (like it matters)......


As a Christian taking a stance against abortion is easy. It’s very visible to others and pretty much make you a swell guy/gal amongst the body of Christ. Unfortunately abortion is the end result of a much bigger problem in which WE have failed and I mean FAILED miserably in dealing with. I wish we had this much zeal against getting pregnant outside of marriage (popularized and acceptable because of Miss Bristol), fornication, adultery, pornography, and lack of guidance (spiritual and parental). Being against abortion is easy; being against some of the things that could eventually lead a young girl/lady to an abortion is much harder to deal with. Honestly we have ignored that aspect of this process because many of us within the body of Christ have those things being strongholds in our respective lives. So many of us (of course not anyone here on Crosswalk ) choose to make abortion(the end result) our 1 because it’s better and easier to deal with instead of going to the root of the problem.

quote:

ooooooooo I'm so ashamed
No I'm not.

Well it must me some sort of acceptance because there is no is saying anything, but liberals. If the shoe was on the other foot(if Obama had a teen daughter), there would be hundreds of threads talking about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037

quote:

ORIGINAL: ken1906_4

I know that the original poster did not attend for this thread to become and argument about abortion. I apologize to the thread starter for continuing this tangent, but here is how I feel about it (like it matters)......


As a Christian taking a stance against abortion is easy. It’s very visible to others and pretty much make you a swell guy/gal amongst the body of Christ. Unfortunately abortion is the end result of a much bigger problem in which WE have failed and I mean FAILED miserably in dealing with. I wish we had this much zeal against getting pregnant outside of marriage (popularized and acceptable because of Miss Bristol), fornication, adultery, pornography, and lack of guidance (spiritual and parental). Being against abortion is easy; being against some of the things that could eventually lead a young girl/lady to an abortion is much harder to deal with. Honestly we have ignored that aspect of this process because many of us within the body of Christ have those things being strongholds in our respective lives. So many of us (of course not anyone here on Crosswalk ) choose to make abortion(the end result) our 1 because it’s better and easier to deal with instead of going to the root of the problem.

You hit it on the head here. It's not a legal issue, it's a spiritual issue. The problem isn't Roe V Wade as much as the Church dropped the ball! And we continue to marginalize "ourselves" as crazy people instead of standing up for what is right with the clear Biblical guidelines upon which this country was founded. Abortion or any other issue rooted in a spiritual depravity that is pervasive in our culture isn't going to change until people's hearts are changed. And screaming like lunatics and bombing abortion clinics isn't sofetning any hard hearts.

2 Chronicles 7:14 NIV
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

We throw this verse around and sing it in songs but I don't see any humility in the Church and very little prayer. The Bible doesn't say, if my people get out the vote and pass laws to make people stop aborting babies, I'll heal their land. It's just not there.

quote:

You hit it on the head here. It's not a legal issue, it's a spiritual issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: huangshan

Hypothetical Utopian solution that people could work towards:

No one has an unwanted pregnancy, and abortion is still legal (albeit never used, due to the lack of unwanted pregnancies).

Everyone is happy.

Likely, realistic solution where people meet halfway:

Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which reduces the number of abortions.

You will never, EVER get the rabid anti-abortion crowd to agree with most forms of birth control;
They consider them abortion as well.
I'd be surprised if you could get even a few of them to agree barrier contraception is a good thing.
Oh, they'll argue with this post, but they'll never say anything about contraception.

You're making it up. Even Catholic catechism does not "consider" birth control "abortion." Birth control is widely accepted among other pro-lifers.

You're ignoring the mad dog in your own front yard.

quote:

Most Americans are not aware that the Pill and other chemical "contraceptives" cause millions of "non-surgical" abortions each year in the early weeks of pregnancy. If you are using the Pill, Depo-Provera or Norplant, you need to know the truth about how these products work.
Pro-Life America

quote:


The Catholic Church and other religious institutions have long preached against most forms of birth control beyond abstinence or the rhythm method
Health providers make stand against birth control

quote:

American Life League hosted a press conference for its first Protest the Pill Day, ramping up for the protests scheduled to occur nationwide outside facilities that distribute the
pill. In partnership with Pro-Life Wisconsin and Pharmacists for Life, ALL seeks to raise awareness about the abortifacient nature of the pill and the intrauterine device, which is responsible for killing preborn children in their earliest days.American Life League: The Pill Kills Babies

7/31/2008

quote:

A Bush administration proposal aimed at protecting health-care workers who object to abortion, and to birth-control methods they consider tantamount to abortion, has escalated a bitter debate over the balance between religious freedom and patients' rights. The most controversial section defines abortion as "any of the various procedures -- including the prescription, dispensing and administration of any drug or the performance of any procedure or any other action -- that results in the termination of life of a human being in utero between conception and natural birth, whether before or after implantation."

That definition would include most forms of hormonal birth control and the IUD, which most major medical groups believe do not constitute abortion because they primarily affect ovulation or fertilization and not an embryo once it has implanted in the womb.
Bush administration proposal

I am not "making it up".
You are, sadly, ignorant of what's going on around you.

And you will notice that No One wants to talk about birth control as a means to stop abortion in the United States;
At least on this Forum.
By the way, Obama did more than just talk -

quote:

Senators Barack Obama and Claire McCaskill proposed a piece of stand-alone legislature entitled the Prevention Through Affordable Access Act, which would restore access to discounted drugs for university and safety-net clinics. The act is co-sponsored by 15 senators, including Hillary Clinton and Oregon's Ron Wyden.
http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/Content?oid=479621&category=22101

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

I am not "making it up".
You are, sadly, ignorant of what's going on around you.

And you will notice that No One wants to talk about birth control as a means to stop abortion in the United States;
At least on this Forum.
By the way, Obama did more than just talk -

Sadly, there is little evidence that increased access and education about birth control reduces pregnancy or abortion.

quote:

"The bottom line is that there is strong evidence that comprehensive sex education is more effective than abstinence-only education at preventing teen pregnancies," said lead researcher Pamela K. Kohler, of the Center for AIDS and STD at the University of Washington in Seattle.

She told Reuters Health the study "also solidly debunks the myth that teens who learn about birth control are more likely to have sex."

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

You don't understand the difference between contracetption and abortion. Contraception prevents a new human being from being created. Abortion kills one. The items you mentioned kill, they are abortions.

quote:

That definition would include most forms of hormonal birth control and the IUD, which most major medical groups believe do not constitute abortion because they primarily affect ovulation or fertilization and not an embryo once it has implanted in the womb.

quote:

For those who ignore the news they don't want to hear.
Study: Birth control education helps reduce pregnancies in high school kids

quote:

That definition would include most forms of hormonal birth control and the IUD, which most major medical groups believe do not constitute abortion because they primarily affect ovulation or fertilization and not an embryo once it has implanted in the womb.

quote:

I am telling you that if we are going to rely on anecdotes, then to my knowledge a legal substance (beer) is much more common than any of the illegal ones.

quote:

Sadly, there is little evidence that increased access and education about birth control reduces pregnancy or abortion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037

You hit it on the head here. It's not a legal issue, it's a spiritual issue. The problem isn't Roe V Wade as much as the Church dropped the ball! And we continue to marginalize "ourselves" as crazy people instead of standing up for what is right with the clear Biblical guidelines upon which this country was founded. Abortion or any other issue rooted in a spiritual depravity that is pervasive in our culture isn't going to change until people's hearts are changed. And screaming like lunatics and bombing abortion clinics isn't sofetning any hard hearts.

quote:


2 Chronicles 7:14 NIV
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

We throw this verse around and sing it in songs but I don't see any humility in the Church and very little prayer. The Bible doesn't say, if my people get out the vote and pass laws to make people stop aborting babies, I'll heal their land. It's just not there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

Wouldn't you agree that anything that reduces the number of abortions in this country by heading off unplanned pregnancies is a good thing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesP

quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037

quote:

ORIGINAL: ken1906_4

I know that the original poster did not attend for this thread to become and argument about abortion. I apologize to the thread starter for continuing this tangent, but here is how I feel about it (like it matters)......


As a Christian taking a stance against abortion is easy. It’s very visible to others and pretty much make you a swell guy/gal amongst the body of Christ. Unfortunately abortion is the end result of a much bigger problem in which WE have failed and I mean FAILED miserably in dealing with. I wish we had this much zeal against getting pregnant outside of marriage (popularized and acceptable because of Miss Bristol), fornication, adultery, pornography, and lack of guidance (spiritual and parental). Being against abortion is easy; being against some of the things that could eventually lead a young girl/lady to an abortion is much harder to deal with. Honestly we have ignored that aspect of this process because many of us within the body of Christ have those things being strongholds in our respective lives. So many of us (of course not anyone here on Crosswalk ) choose to make abortion(the end result) our 1 because it’s better and easier to deal with instead of going to the root of the problem.

You hit it on the head here. It's not a legal issue, it's a spiritual issue. The problem isn't Roe V Wade as much as the Church dropped the ball! And we continue to marginalize "ourselves" as crazy people instead of standing up for what is right with the clear Biblical guidelines upon which this country was founded. Abortion or any other issue rooted in a spiritual depravity that is pervasive in our culture isn't going to change until people's hearts are changed. And screaming like lunatics and bombing abortion clinics isn't sofetning any hard hearts.

2 Chronicles 7:14 NIV
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

We throw this verse around and sing it in songs but I don't see any humility in the Church and very little prayer. The Bible doesn't say, if my people get out the vote and pass laws to make people stop aborting babies, I'll heal their land. It's just not there.

I agree with this post. Regarding the bolded section, you are correct. We have to stop the actions that are sinful, but that is not going to happen when society bows down to convenience and moral relativism. It is the Church's responsibility to raise its own children to be ethical and moral. It also has the responsibility to evangelize and live the example we are instructed to live in order to make the biggest impact. If we made that impact, then the laws would reflect it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhippie

quote:

ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
I wish we had this much zeal against getting pregnant outside of marriage (popularized and acceptable because of Miss Bristol), fornication, adultery, pornography, and lack of guidance (spiritual and parental). Being against abortion is easy; being against some of the things that could eventually lead a young girl/lady to an abortion is much harder to deal with. Honestly we have ignored that aspect of this process because many of us within the body of Christ have those things being strongholds in our respective lives. So many of us (of course not anyone here on Crosswalk ) choose to make abortion(the end result) our 1 because it’s better and easier to deal with instead of going to the root of the problem.

This is such a gross, revolting mischaracterization of anything close to reality that I am hard pressed not to violate TOS in responding. How dare you imply that Bristol has made teen pregnancy popular and acceptable!! NO WHERE has anyone suggested such drivel! You should be ashamed of yourself for even having the audacity to say such a thing

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhippie

quote:

ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
I wish we had this much zeal against getting pregnant outside of marriage (popularized and acceptable because of Miss Bristol), fornication, adultery, pornography, and lack of guidance (spiritual and parental). Being against abortion is easy; being against some of the things that could eventually lead a young girl/lady to an abortion is much harder to deal with. Honestly we have ignored that aspect of this process because many of us within the body of Christ have those things being strongholds in our respective lives. So many of us (of course not anyone here on Crosswalk ) choose to make abortion(the end result) our 1 because it’s better and easier to deal with instead of going to the root of the problem.

This is such a gross, revolting mischaracterization of anything close to reality that I am hard pressed not to violate TOS in responding. How dare you imply that Bristol has made teen pregnancy popular and acceptable!! NO WHERE has anyone suggested such drivel! You should be ashamed of yourself for even having the audacity to say such a thing

I'd say it's about as accurate as claiming that Bill Clinton caused the nation's high schoolers to believe that oral sex isn't really sex.

Yes, I've heard that one more than once.

-Dan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar

I'd say it's about as accurate as claiming that Bill Clinton caused the nation's high schoolers to believe that oral sex isn't really sex.

Yes, I've heard that one more than once.

-Dan.

When some parents tried to speak to their daughters, the (middle school) girls shrugged off the significance of what they had done (performed oral sex). "What's the big deal? President Clinton did it," one said.

Clinton family values

quote:

ORIGINAL: huangshan


I'm not sure that a throwaway comment is anything more than an individual's excuse. The article doesn't seem to dwell on it. And it should be noted that Clinton's problem was a private matter that was relentlessly made public by others. I'm sure he would have been happy to have kept everyone in the dark about it. For that matter, I'm pretty sure the country would have been better off keeping private matters like that private as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

Bill Clinton's history of being not so nice to women isn't a private matter...

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhippie

quote:

ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
I wish we had this much zeal against getting pregnant outside of marriage (popularized and acceptable because of Miss Bristol), fornication, adultery, pornography, and lack of guidance (spiritual and parental). Being against abortion is easy; being against some of the things that could eventually lead a young girl/lady to an abortion is much harder to deal with. Honestly we have ignored that aspect of this process because many of us within the body of Christ have those things being strongholds in our respective lives. So many of us (of course not anyone here on Crosswalk ) choose to make abortion(the end result) our 1 because it’s better and easier to deal with instead of going to the root of the problem.

This is such a gross, revolting mischaracterization of anything close to reality that I am hard pressed not to violate TOS in responding. How dare you imply that Bristol has made teen pregnancy popular and acceptable!! NO WHERE has anyone suggested such drivel! You should be ashamed of yourself for even having the audacity to say such a thing

I'd say it's about as accurate as claiming that Bill Clinton caused the nation's high schoolers to believe that oral sex isn't really sex.

Yes, I've heard that one more than once.

-Dan.

When some parents tried to speak to their daughters, the (middle school) girls shrugged off the significance of what they had done (performed oral sex). "What's the big deal? President Clinton did it," one said.

Clinton family values

quote:

(popularized and acceptable because of Miss Bristol),