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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/13/2008 10:51:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
Start a thread saying how you support, say, women's reproductive rights, and see how quickly the "discussion" descends into a flurry of self-righteous name-calling, brimstone, and general foaming of the mouth.
How nice of a "discussion" do you want regarding the murder of 3500 unborn children daily, oh wait, I mean women's reproductive rights... For starters those who support the view generally can't even come to grips with what they support they must paint some picture that doesn't represent the cold truth or you get some circus act like explanation that while I support the rights of others to do it I personally don't believe in it... Sorry... Those who support the murder of the unborn bring it upon themselves... There is no nice way of talking about something so gruesome... The fact people think you can have a "nice" conversation about something so disgusting is an issue itself...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/13/2008 11:39:10 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
There is no nice way of talking about something so gruesome... The fact people think you can have a "nice" conversation about something so disgusting is an issue itself...
I hope you can understand how this attitude isn't particularly conducive to providing a politically feasible solution. If you want to have a productive discussion or debate, it's often best to check your emotions at the door.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 12:04:05 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I hope you can understand how this attitude isn't particularly conducive to providing a politically feasible solution.
I am not naive enough to believe those who support abortion wish to achieve a solution.... For instance the platform of the party the champions the right to murder the unborn makes it clear their objective first and foremost is to safeguard the right...
quote:
If you want to have a productive discussion or debate, it's often best to check your emotions at the door.
No emotions... Cold hard facts... And it's not I who gets emotional and can't deal with what I support and it's obvious consequences in this debate.
As I stated... The fact people think you can have a "nice" conversation about something so disgusting is an issue itself... Might as well talk about the positive aspects of pedophilia...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 12:15:48 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
No emotions... Cold hard facts... And it's not I who gets emotional and can't deal with what I support and it's obvious consequences in this debate.
As I stated... The fact people think you can have a "nice" conversation about something so disgusting is an issue itself...
I've had a civil discussion on the subject with, surprise, no name-calling at a bible study, multiple times. When you use emotive, subjective language like "disgusting" and sneer at the prospect of a "nice" conversation, it's hard to take your statement of, uh, emotionless "cold, hard facts" seriously. If you are emotionless, you can be civil, if you are using facts, you can be nice.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 12:19:46 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I hope you can understand how this attitude isn't particularly conducive to providing a politically feasible solution.
I am not naive enough to believe those who support abortion wish to achieve a solution.... For instance the platform of the party the champions the right to murder the unborn makes it clear their objective first and foremost is to safeguard the right...
Hypothetical Utopian solution that people could work towards:
No one has an unwanted pregnancy, and abortion is still legal (albeit never used, due to the lack of unwanted pregnancies).
Everyone is happy.
Likely, realistic solution where people meet halfway:
Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which reduces the number of abortions.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 12:32:41 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I've had a civil discussion on the subject with, surprise, no name-calling at a bible study, multiple times.
If there was anyone debating the issue for abortion from a biblical perspective the only reason it was civil is because nobody there had the guts to stand for what is right...
quote:
When you use emotive, subjective language like "disgusting" and sneer at the prospect of a "nice" conversation, it's hard to take your statement of, uh, emotionless "cold, hard facts" seriously. If you are emotionless, you can be civil, if you are using facts, you can be nice.
It's only hard because you are predisposed... I don't care how many civil discussion one has had about the subject, the murder of an unborn child is disgusting... That is a fair and accurate description of abortion... If I were to call it unfortunate is would sound like an accident and that wouldn't be truthful... You can attempt to make me some foaming at the mouth emotional void of thought type in regards to abortion but I know the thing that get people bent is the simple fact I stand against it, I don't bend, and that I don't really get emotional... There is no argument for it... Just excuses and rationalization...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 1:28:25 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I've had a civil discussion on the subject with, surprise, no name-calling at a bible study, multiple times.
If there was anyone debating the issue for abortion from a biblical perspective the only reason it was civil is because nobody there had the guts to stand for what is right...
quote:
When you use emotive, subjective language like "disgusting" and sneer at the prospect of a "nice" conversation, it's hard to take your statement of, uh, emotionless "cold, hard facts" seriously. If you are emotionless, you can be civil, if you are using facts, you can be nice.
It's only hard because you are predisposed... I don't care how many civil discussion one has had about the subject, the murder of an unborn child is disgusting... That is a fair and accurate description of abortion... If I were to call it unfortunate is would sound like an accident and that wouldn't be truthful... You can attempt to make me some foaming at the mouth emotional void of thought type in regards to abortion but I know the thing that get people bent is the simple fact I stand against it, I don't bend, and that I don't really get emotional... There is no argument for it... Just excuses and rationalization...
As I said, if you want a politically feasible solution, a measure of civility is necessary.
To get civility, you need to check your emotions at the door. One need not "bend" to do this. Civility and strength are hardly mutually exclusive.
Civility is mutually exclusive of emotive language. Sniping at offensive opinions with emotive language serves to do little but stifle discussion, and is the internet equivalent of shouting someone down.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 2:56:57 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I hope you can understand how this attitude isn't particularly conducive to providing a politically feasible solution.
I am not naive enough to believe those who support abortion wish to achieve a solution.... For instance the platform of the party the champions the right to murder the unborn makes it clear their objective first and foremost is to safeguard the right...
Hypothetical Utopian solution that people could work towards:
No one has an unwanted pregnancy, and abortion is still legal (albeit never used, due to the lack of unwanted pregnancies).
Everyone is happy.
Likely, realistic solution where people meet halfway:
Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which reduces the number of abortions.
Utopia is a place where it is legal to murder babies. Only to a liberal.
Conservatives wouldn't be happy if it was legal to enslave black people even if nobody did. We wouldn't be happy if it was legal to put Jews in ovens even if nobody did. The legalization of human dismemberment and disembowlement brings happiness only to liberals.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 4:58:21 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
Hypothetical Utopian solution that people could work towards:
No one has an unwanted pregnancy, and abortion is still legal (albeit never used, due to the lack of unwanted pregnancies).
Everyone is happy.
Likely, realistic solution where people meet halfway:
Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which reduces the number of abortions.
You will never, EVER get the rabid anti-abortion crowd to agree with most forms of birth control;
They consider them abortion as well.
I'd be surprised if you could get even a few of them to agree barrier contraception is a good thing.
Oh, they'll argue with this post, but they'll never say anything about contraception.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 7:19:20 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1762
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I hope you can understand how this attitude isn't particularly conducive to providing a politically feasible solution.
I am not naive enough to believe those who support abortion wish to achieve a solution.... For instance the platform of the party the champions the right to murder the unborn makes it clear their objective first and foremost is to safeguard the right...
quote:
If you want to have a productive discussion or debate, it's often best to check your emotions at the door.
No emotions... Cold hard facts... And it's not I who gets emotional and can't deal with what I support and it's obvious consequences in this debate.
As I stated... The fact people think you can have a "nice" conversation about something so disgusting is an issue itself... Might as well talk about the positive aspects of pedophilia...
This is the problem. And this is why I will not identify myself with the pro life movement. It's counterproductive. People have been trying to "persuade" (more like shout down) the abortion rights crowd for years and years with this kind of emotionalism. That's not who is going to be persuaded. If "we" could just take a reasonable, measured approach without sounding like raving lunatics, reminiscent of crazy clinic bombers, the vast majority in the middle on this issue might actually see reason. As it is, all they see is lunacy on the right.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 9:21:50 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
As I said, if you want a politically feasible solution, a measure of civility is necessary.
A measure of civility is wanted from oneside in an attempt to justify the position from the start...
quote:
To get civility, you need to check your emotions at the door. One need not "bend" to do this. Civility and strength are hardly mutually exclusive.
As stated it's not I who gets emotional...It's those who can't stand to have their evil agenda called what it is... Cold hard fact... No emotion...
quote:
Civility is mutually exclusive of emotive language. Sniping at offensive opinions with emotive language serves to do little but stifle discussion, and is the internet equivalent of shouting someone down.
What passes for emotive language is the truth... Some people want the truth of abortions stifled so they can pretend they have something to stand on...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 9:30:46 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
This is the problem. And this is why I will not identify myself with the pro life movement. It's counterproductive. People have been trying to "persuade" (more like shout down) the abortion rights crowd for years and years with this kind of emotionalism. That's not who is going to be persuaded. If "we" could just take a reasonable, measured approach without sounding like raving lunatics, reminiscent of crazy clinic bombers, the vast majority in the middle on this issue might actually see reason. As it is, all they see is lunacy on the right.
Sorry, but I implore you to point out where I come off like a raving lunatic reminiscent of crazy clinic bomber? Please point out my emotional outburst? The above is the typical canned response void of any real considered to what is posted. I am a raving lunatic because I don't believe there is comprise on the number of children that is accpetle in regards to them being put to death? I am like a clinic bomber because I believe abortion is disgusting? By all means give a true and direct term that takes into account what abortion is... Here's your chance to bring civility to the table...
The vast majority don't want to deal with the truth of the matter, much like many here. They want to break the issue down to a simply matter of opinion and disagreements and ignore what is going on... They chant the mantra of civility and common ground because the truth of the matter isn't on their side...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 11:35:56 AM
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todd_t
Posts: 1590
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't know who you are hanging out with that you think pot is 'as common as beer' - but I know lots of people that have beer in there house, but no pot.
Well, if those people did have pot in the house, do you think they'd advertise it? Believe me, the drug may not be out in the open, but it's common.
And for the record, alcohol is a drug too, just a socially accepted one.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 12:12:33 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
Hypothetical Utopian solution that people could work towards:
No one has an unwanted pregnancy, and abortion is still legal (albeit never used, due to the lack of unwanted pregnancies).
Everyone is happy.
Likely, realistic solution where people meet halfway:
Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which reduces the number of abortions.
You will never, EVER get the rabid anti-abortion crowd to agree with most forms of birth control;
They consider them abortion as well.
I'd be surprised if you could get even a few of them to agree barrier contraception is a good thing.
Oh, they'll argue with this post, but they'll never say anything about contraception.
You're making it up. Even Catholic catechism does not "consider" birth control "abortion." Birth control is widely accepted among other pro-lifers.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 12:15:33 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1336
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
I don't know who you are hanging out with that you think pot is 'as common as beer' - but I know lots of people that have beer in there house, but no pot.
Well, if those people did have pot in the house, do you think they'd advertise it? Believe me, the drug may not be out in the open, but it's common.
And for the record, alcohol is a drug too, just a socially accepted one.
Actually  according to the latest numbers in 2007, those using illicit drugs over the age of 12 was just under 20 million (see here) and those over 12 using alcohol numbered 126.8 million people (see here).
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 12:19:52 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1336
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
Hypothetical Utopian solution that people could work towards:
No one has an unwanted pregnancy, and abortion is still legal (albeit never used, due to the lack of unwanted pregnancies).
Everyone is happy.
Likely, realistic solution where people meet halfway:
Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which reduces the number of abortions.
You will never, EVER get the rabid anti-abortion crowd to agree with most forms of birth control;
They consider them abortion as well.
I'd be surprised if you could get even a few of them to agree barrier contraception is a good thing.
Oh, they'll argue with this post, but they'll never say anything about contraception.
You're making it up. Even Catholic catechism does not "consider" birth control "abortion." Birth control is widely accepted among other pro-lifers.
That is true ... very few in the pro-life crowd believe that birth control is the same thing as abortion. Although an informed pro-lifer knows that the IUD does cause an early abortion and will not use that particular method.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 12:20:04 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I hope you can understand how this attitude isn't particularly conducive to providing a politically feasible solution.
I am not naive enough to believe those who support abortion wish to achieve a solution.... For instance the platform of the party the champions the right to murder the unborn makes it clear their objective first and foremost is to safeguard the right...
quote:
If you want to have a productive discussion or debate, it's often best to check your emotions at the door.
No emotions... Cold hard facts... And it's not I who gets emotional and can't deal with what I support and it's obvious consequences in this debate.
As I stated... The fact people think you can have a "nice" conversation about something so disgusting is an issue itself... Might as well talk about the positive aspects of pedophilia...
This is the problem. And this is why I will not identify myself with the pro life movement. It's counterproductive. People have been trying to "persuade" (more like shout down) the abortion rights crowd for years and years with this kind of emotionalism. That's not who is going to be persuaded. If "we" could just take a reasonable, measured approach without sounding like raving lunatics, reminiscent of crazy clinic bombers, the vast majority in the middle on this issue might actually see reason. As it is, all they see is lunacy on the right.
If only we could have a "reasonable measured" approach to disembowling, dismembering and decapitating babies. Such thinking once comforted the proponents of slavery.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 1:28:23 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1590
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
Status: offline
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quote:
Actually according to the latest numbers in 2007, those using illicit drugs over the age of 12 was just under 20 million (see here) and those over 12 using alcohol numbered 126.8 million people.
How you possibly believe those stats? Do you seriously think that people are going to be forthcoming about their illegal drug use to a pollster?
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 1:35:23 PM
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LivingParadox
Posts: 819
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
Actually according to the latest numbers in 2007, those using illicit drugs over the age of 12 was just under 20 million (see here) and those over 12 using alcohol numbered 126.8 million people.
How you possibly believe those stats? Do you seriously think that people are going to be forthcoming about their illegal drug use to a pollster?
Why? Because they are breaking the law. Something you encourage people to do? And personally, I don't keep any illegal substances at my house and don't feel the need to break the law.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 2:45:30 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7785
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Well, if those people did have pot in the house, do you think they'd advertise it? Believe me, the drug may not be out in the open, but it's common.
And for the record, alcohol is a drug too, just a socially accepted one.
You want it both ways - you want to claim it's 'common' and that we can't have accurate stats - both can't be true. I am telling you that if we are going to rely on anecdotes, then to my knowledge a legal substance (beer) is much more common than any of the illegal ones.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 6:00:29 PM
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ken1906_4
Posts: 272
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline
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I know that the original poster did not attend for this thread to become and argument about abortion. I apologize to the thread starter for continuing this tangent, but here is how I feel about it (like it matters)......
As a Christian taking a stance against abortion is easy. It’s very visible to others and pretty much make you a swell guy/gal amongst the body of Christ. Unfortunately abortion is the end result of a much bigger problem in which WE have failed and I mean FAILED miserably in dealing with. I wish we had this much zeal against getting pregnant outside of marriage (popularized and acceptable because of Miss Bristol), fornication, adultery, pornography, and lack of guidance (spiritual and parental). Being against abortion is easy; being against some of the things that could eventually lead a young girl/lady to an abortion is much harder to deal with. Honestly we have ignored that aspect of this process because many of us within the body of Christ have those things being strongholds in our respective lives. So many of us (of course not anyone here on Crosswalk  ) choose to make abortion(the end result) our 1 because it’s better and easier to deal with instead of going to the root of the problem.
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
True colors are being revealed
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/14/2008 6:15:39 PM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1315
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
So many of us (of course not anyone here on Crosswalk ) choose to make abortion(the end result) our 1 because it’s better and easier to deal with instead of going to the root of the problem.
I have to ask, have you been on the morality & ethics part of this forum? I'll admit I'm not there often but I have seen adultery, fornication, pornography, lack of parental guidance etc. discussed there in no uncertain terms. This is the current events forum, the election 2008 subforum. Abortion is the political issue that comes from all the sins you mentioned. So that is probably why abortion is discussed so much here.
If you have a way to address adultery, fornication, pornography and lack of parental guidance politically then by all means share. We already know abortion is a part of a bigger societal problem but what would you like a potential president to do about those other issues? Other than utilize the bully pulpit. Maybe some sort of federal programs but I don't trust the government* with morality issues. There are several ways a president can affect abortion laws, which is why that stance is important.
Your point is well taken though.
* The statement could have stopped where the asterick is and still be true.
_____________________________
Be my friend!
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/15/2008 10:03:36 AM
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rhippie
Posts: 628
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
The overwhelming source of vitriol and hatred here and elsewhere has come from left-wing secularists and their liberal Christian fellow travelers.
Jack, in terms of low credibility, this statement ranks up there with the kid who cried wolf (especially, considering that conservatives outweigh moderates or liberals here by at least 10-1).
I thought you were a more rational person than this.
I could go thru these forums right now, and pick out dozens of examples of conservatives slinging mud at those on the left for (God forbid) not kow-towing to their image of evangelical Christianity and the Republican Party - because, these days, the two are virtually the same.
quote:
While the discussion here certainly invites improvement,
Gee, y'think?
quote:
one need only spend ten seconds elsewhere to understand that it is the godless that create much of the poison that now infects our public discourse.
This statement is so nonsensical I'm not even sure where to begin. But here's a little experiment to serve as an example....
Start a thread saying how you support, say, women's reproductive rights, and see how quickly the "discussion" descends into a flurry of self-righteous name-calling, brimstone, and general foaming of the mouth.
Rather one sided isn't it? Or do you seriously believe that the same isn't true of the "left" in terms of their response to what the "right" says? I could post dozens of examples of the "left" calling Republicans all kinds of mean-spirited names. It's a sad comment on both sides
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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