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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/12/2008 11:07:02 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
[quote]You are correct, Lazarus and the rich man both experienced Hades, their experiences were very different, this commentary is one of the very few places we get an insight into Hades, in scripture. But that tangent opens a raft of other issues.
The meaning of Lazarus and the Richman may not be so cut and dry either. It may be Lazarus represented the gentiles who grabbed spiritual crumbs because at that time only the jews had the Word and they sumptously feasted on it and were unwilling to share it. But they looked to Father Abraham to save them and as long as they did they would be separated from heaven by a great gulf no man could cross and they would be tormented.
Another words this parable was not about heaven and hell but rather was a prophecy about a nation rejecting Christ because they counted on their genetic relationship to Abraham.
That is one of the other issues I was referring to - we need to look at to whom the message was given, and why. I think we also have to be wary of extrapolating the experience recorded of two individuals, and applying conclusions to millions of others.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/13/2008 12:45:59 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Tonynz,
quote:
Excellent subject, and in my opinion we should be able to discuss it without emotional baggage such as being accused of not believing scripture. I agree with you Tony, unfortunately the "baggage" and "accusations" do seem to abound. I guess it's simply up to the mature one to either not try to give such an offense, or, to not take an offense when one is given.
quote:
Following the Great White Throne Judgment (where those who are subject to it are judged based on their works), Tony, my understanding is a bit different. You appear to be combining the Great White throne judgment with the judgment seat of Christ. The Great White Throne judgment is based upon knowledge of Christ as savior, whereas the judgment based upon works is the judgment seat of Christ.
quote:
The area that I must confess to uncertainty over, is the issue of whether all those who dwell in death in Hades, are condemned to being eternally committed to the lake of fire, Maybe this scripture can help shed some light on this for you.
1CO 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave/hades, where is thy victory?
So apparently the "victory" of hades isn't eternal. The next contention will be those who'll say they believe it's 'eternal for some but not all'...an opinion I have a disagreement with. So I'm pleased that you aren't going to hold that view against this "person's commitment to Christ, based upon doctrinal doubts" 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/13/2008 11:24:02 AM
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frankman
Posts: 213
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Thess,
I went back and read #18. No scripture or anything supporting salvation before the cross IMO. Did you post the wrong #?
DR
I`m Frankman, not Thess. In order to not divert the subject away from the views of hell I posted it on "Salvation in the Old testament" site "Salvation Issues, No.#18. You can read the whole site. I`m sure you will find it interesting.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/13/2008 1:57:57 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Frankman,
quote:
I`m Frankman, not Thess. In order to not divert the subject away from the views of hell I posted it on "Salvation in the Old testament" site "Salvation Issues, No.#18. You can read the whole site. I`m sure you will find it interesting. Sorry for the moniker mistake. I guess it was just too late when I posted.
I did go and read the other site until I got to your #18 post, and by then a pattern seemed to be established. Your sole scripture saying it's by faith of Abraham believeing Gen 3:15. Unfortunately that is a speculation on your part which doesn't seem to line up with another scripture concerning what Abe had faith in.
JAM 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
His faith was attached to his works and his work was to sacrifice his son based upon 'hearing God who told him to do it'. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but that's what it looks like to me. And if that is the case, then there were a whole lot of people who weren't 'the chosen people' (based soley upon Abraham faith and bloodline). All those people then were apparently were left without 'a gospel' and thereby doomed by God to "eternal torture" according to orthodoxy. I just have difficulty accepting that view though.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/13/2008 9:58:29 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1970
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From: Kansas
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Romans 4:1-6 ( KJV ) 1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Hummmmm!!
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/13/2008 11:30:19 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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Bob,
Hummmm how deep do you want to go?
Your verse deals with imputed righteousness from 'faith without works', which James 2:22 says is 'imperfect faith'.
Let me just say there is a difference between imputed righteousness which comes from 'imperfect faith and no works'...and 'imparted righteousness which comes from 'imperfect faith' plus 'works' resulting in 'perfect faith'.
JAM 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
It would be a bit of a diversion from the thread to go farther so we probably ought to just leave our Hummmms where they are. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/14/2008 12:55:33 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1970
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From: Kansas
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Hummmm!!
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/15/2008 12:52:16 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
The meaning of Lazarus and the Richman may not be so cut and dry either. It may be Lazarus represented the gentiles who grabbed spiritual crumbs because at that time only the jews had the Word and they sumptously feasted on it and were unwilling to share it. But they looked to Father Abraham to save them and as long as they did they would be separated from heaven by a great gulf no man could cross and they would be tormented.
Another words this parable was not about heaven and hell but rather was a prophecy about a nation rejecting Christ because they counted on their genetic relationship to Abraham.
That's interesting IF this was a parable. If it was a parable, it was different than any other ever told by Jesus. He named names of all but the rich man (who might have been known by those listening) which was out of character for parables.
It also seems odd that Jesus would give so much information about non-existent places and never clarified to His disciples that it was just a fable.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/15/2008 1:56:47 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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It is only a parable if your theology mandates that you find a way to explain it away.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/15/2008 5:09:17 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
I`m not sure if you understand this all because it is somewhat complicated, but let me assure you both heaven and hell are forever. That is why it is so important that we all heed Jesus` Words from John 5:24. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." Then you won`t have to worry about all of this for you`ll be heaven bound.
Frankman, thanks for your concern about all this complexity but what the manuscripts say are that heaven and hell are "aionios." Aionios is the plural of "aion" and "aion" means age. Now regarding heaven , since believers have immortality we don't need to think about the precise definition of "aionios" because immortality be definition is forever.
Unbelievers however do not have immortality. I'll be back ASAP to state why i think Lazarus and the Richman is in fact a parable. BTW when Jesus spoke it he had just given 4 or 5 parables right before it and gave no indication this story was anything different.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/15/2008 5:50:14 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I'll be back ASAP to state why i think Lazarus and the Richman is in fact a parable.
Just because it is a parable doesn't mean it doesn't describe things that could really happen. Seeds really grow, over-seers really do entrust their servants to manage their household, single sheep really do get lost. Jesus uses these real events to prove points. Why should we assume that, just because one parable deals with things outside our normal experience, they aren't also portraying reality?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/15/2008 9:05:58 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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Here is the definition of aionios from two different bible dictionaries: Easton’s Bible Dictionary, Parsons Bible Dictionary
Eternal Death
The miserable fate of the wicked in hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Heb. 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7). The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the “everlasting life,” the “eternal life” of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express
(1.) the eternal existence of God (1 Tim. 1:17; Rom. 1:20; 16:26);
(2.) of Christ (Rev. 1:18);
(3.) of the Holy Ghost (Heb. 9:14); and
(4.) the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Jude 6).
Their condition after casting off the mortal body is spoken of in these expressive words: “Fire that shall not be quenched” (Mark 9:45, 46), “fire unquenchable” (Luke 3:17), “the worm that never dies,” the “bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:1), “the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever and ever” (Rev. 14:10, 11).
The idea that the “second death” (Rev. 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring for ever.
The supposition that God will ultimately secure the repentance and restoration of all sinners is equally unscriptural. There is not the slightest trace in all the Scriptures of any such restoration. Sufferings of themselves have no tendency to purify the soul from sin or impart spiritual life. The atoning death of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit are the only means of divine appointment for bringing men to repentance. Now in the case of them that perish these means have been rejected, and “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” (Heb. 10:26, 27).
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/16/2008 6:01:37 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Thessa,
quote:
Why - i ask you - would we get a whole life on Earth and then also another chance when we die?
That's the point, they never had a first chance during this "whole life". That was also the point of all the scriptures I quoted which you aren't addressing as I asked. Why aren't you?
They have all the chances in the world. Seriously why are you belittling the fact that we are given ALL chances in THIS LIFE to accept God?
I think you are focusing too much on sinners to see the salvation.
quote:
Jesus didn't just save us from our sins, He saved us from SIN...the nature of sin. So we go on about this new nature we have and yet we live just as sinful lives as the world. That's sad IMO.
If thats really what you think then i no longer wish to discuss this with you. I cant discuss this with someone that dosent see and dosent seem to realize what Jesus did for each of us.
I hope and Pray that someday you will see the truth.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/16/2008 6:58:33 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
Why should we assume that, just because one parable deals with things outside our normal experience, they aren't also portraying reality?
You're right in that even if it is a parable it does'nt mean that it's not describing heaven and hell.
Jesus clearly is not speaking to the general world of unbelievers he is speaking to the Pharisses at a dinner. He tells them that they look to Father Abraham to save them, he describes their attire, he describes their attitude toward gentiles. He describes the rich man's 5 brothers. The rich man may be Annas the high priest who had 5 brothers or it may be the jewish nation. Is Lazarus a believer in Christ? All we know about Lazarus is that he is poor, nothing is said about his faith in Christ, nothing is said about the rich man's faith. Whatever good things Christ is referring to has nothing to do with faith or salvation, it's a prophecy about things to come. The gentile nations would switch places with the jewish nation regarding the good things of God.
There are dozens of verses in scripture that state that folks in hades simply sleep until judgment day.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/16/2008 7:03:01 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the “everlasting life,” the “eternal life” of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express
Depends on your bible translation. The traditional ones translate "aionios" into eternal but Rotherhams and Youngs translates it into "ages." The way it was used by Plato who first created the word was not eternal. "Aiodios" was used for describing the eternal life of the gods by Plato.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/16/2008 9:23:43 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
You're right in that even if it is a parable it does'nt mean that it's not describing heaven and hell. ... There are dozens of verses in scripture that state that folks in hades simply sleep until judgment day.
So where was the rich man, in the parable?
quote:
The traditional ones translate "aionios" into eternal but Rotherhams and Youngs translates it into "ages."
What would be the implication, in your take on things, if it were "ages" instead of eternal?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/16/2008 12:33:26 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
They have all the chances in the world. Seriously why are you belittling the fact that we are given ALL chances in THIS LIFE to accept God?
I think you are focusing too much on sinners to see the salvation.
It's odd Thessa that just four days ago (post 30) you were saying you understood that all who didn't get a chance to hear of Jesus would go to heaven, and then a day later you were already saying "There should not be ONE person on this Earth that is accountable with no knowledge of God and Jesus. Not ONE."
And just four days into your newfound position, you're accusing someone of "belittling the fact that everyone has all the chances in the world."  If I were Him4All I wouldn't be interested in discussing this with you either. You're often saying things like, "Do you really believe the Bible?" or "I cant discuss this with someone that dosent see and dosent seem to realize what Jesus did for each of us."
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/16/2008 1:50:32 PM
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abraxas
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I'm not the one who thinks Him4all is.
What I think is that it's a logical absurdity to assume that every single person on the planet has heard of Jesus. And what adequately entails "hearing of Jesus" anyway?
Now go back 50 years, 80, 100, 500, etc. It becomes even more absurd to declare what you're declaring.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/16/2008 2:44:45 PM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I'm not the one who thinks Him4all is.
What I think is that it's a logical absurdity to assume that every single person on the planet has heard of Jesus. And what adequately entails "hearing of Jesus" anyway?
Now go back 50 years, 80, 100, 500, etc. It becomes even more absurd to declare what you're declaring.
Show me in the bible where it says differently.
Show me in the bible where it even comes CLOSE to saying that there will be some that will have never heard of God.
Ill bet you cant...
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/16/2008 5:07:56 PM
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frankman
Posts: 213
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
[Unbelievers however do not have immortality.
 Do you believe that the beast and his false prophet of Revelation will be unbelievers? I`m sure you agree with me that these two characters will definately not be born again and heaven bound. Now see what will evenually happen to them from Rev.19:20. "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."
 Into the lake of fire they went. Now if you are right that unbelievers do not have immortality, these two evil characters should be goners. We should never have to read about them again.
Now fast-forward one chapter to Rev.20:10. "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Who are the "they" in this verse? (answer) Mr.Devil, Mr. Beast and Mr. False Prophet. The verse clearly states "THEY will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." These characters will be there a trillion times trillion years from now along with all others of the human race who`s names are not found written in the book of life. Rev.20:15 states "If anyone`s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." If the second death is forever for those three villians in Rev.20:10, it will also be forever for all unbelievers.
We are here because of Adam. Adam and Eve were our first parents. Because of their sin we also will someday die. Then 1 Cor.15:22 tells us "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." 1 Tim.1:16 tells us only God is immortal, meaning only God has no birthday or end day. All human life is immortal, meaning even though we have birthdays, we have no end days. In that way we are different from God. God had no beginning, as we do have a beginning. However your soul will live on forever. Where it will be a trillion years from now will depend on what we believe about Jesus in this period of time that we today call life. After time comes eternity for all.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/16/2008 5:58:10 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
If I were Him4All I wouldn't be interested in discussing this with you either. You're often saying things like, "Do you really believe the Bible?" or "I cant discuss this with someone that dosent see and dosent seem to realize what Jesus did for each of us."
Abraxas,
Thanks for the above observation...which is right on IMO. When I was 'catching up' this afternoon and came upon Thessa's first post saying she wouldn't have any more to do with me, my first thought was to post and thank her. But now I don't have to, I'll just thank you for stating the obvious.
And answering her challenge for scriptures is probably a waste of your time since she still hasn't answered the ones I told her to deal with.
steve7150,
quote:
Aionios is the plural of "aion" and "aion" means age. Now regarding heaven , since believers have immortality we don't need to think about the precise definition of "aionios" because immortality be definition is forever.
Steve, I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Aionios isn't the plural of aion it's an adjective. It isn't about a quantity of time (ages). It is about a quality within a period of time be it an age or ages. That's why YLT translates it as "age-during". You then have to see what associated noun belongs to that adjective. That will tell you what 'quality' during the age is being spoken of...be it aionios life, aionios death, aionios fire, aionios damnation, aionios habitations ect. ect.
Also, believers don't have 'immortality'...that's why we still die. We have not yet destroyed the last enemy of death. Neither did Jesus, He overame it but didn't destroy it .
1CO 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
We as believers are supposed to overcome sin totally which is the cause of death physically. Then shall come to pass "Oh grave where is thy sting".
JAM 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James is talking about our bodies dying in the future here (vs 12).
We don't have immortality because we haven't overcome sin by the power of the 'totally' enchristed life. That's why scripture tells us to "seek" immortality.
ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;.
As you can see immortality and aionios life are two different things in this verse. And we are to seek immortality before we will be 'given' physical life to the end of this age. But this is getting off track so let's get back to IT.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/16/2008 7:26:23 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Show me in the bible where it even comes CLOSE to saying that there will be some that will have never heard of God.
Ill bet you cant...
Romans 10:14-15?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/17/2008 8:12:38 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
Steve, I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Aionios isn't the plural of aion it's an adjective. It isn't about a quantity of time (ages). It is about a quality within a period of time be it an age or ages. That's why YLT translates it as "age-during". You then have to see what associated noun belongs to that adjective. That will tell you what 'quality' during the age is being spoken of...be it aionios life, aionios death, aionios fire, aionios damnation, aionios habitations ect. ect.
Also, believers don't have 'immortality'...that's why we still die
You're right and thanks for pointing this out. Rotherham's translates "aionios" as "age abiding." And i should have said that believers will be given immortality at the resurrection.
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I`m not sure if you understand this all because it is somewhat complicated, but let me assure you both heaven and hell are forever. That is why it is so important that we all heed Jesus` Words from John 5:24. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." 
